Line Judges at USTA Tourneys

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by Booyah, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Booyah

    Booyah Semi-Pro

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    What do you guys think of them? are they doing any thing at your tournaments? or do they just sit around and watch and occasional monitor the courts.

    I have seen a lot of foot faulting go on and officials are not even giving warnings and many just sit around and wait til a new match starts where they reset the scoreboards and coin toss.
     
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  2. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    What section are you in?
     
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  3. Tallahassee_Technifibre

    Tallahassee_Technifibre Rookie

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    We cycle around a few different ones in north Florida area, the sad thing is each one is different which isn't something you want. You want consistency.you know?
     
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  4. Booyah

    Booyah Semi-Pro

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    Southwest.
     
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  5. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    If you're talking about the roving umpires at the Valley of the Sun, they were pretty darned worthless. Generally, in the southwest, what you stated is pretty true.

    Most of them tend to be pretty aged, some are quite deaf and they are very inconsistent. They don't want to write people up for code violations because there's paperwork involved.

    However, I know several people on the Southwest Jr Competitive Committee and they are actively trying to give the SW umps some 'teeth'. Eventually there will be a younger crop that has gone through some training and will hopefully care...

    (as far as resetting the scorecards, the responsibility of that should fall onto the winning player. good motto: leave the court cleaner than when you came and ready for the next match; that includes putting the scorecards back to zero.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2008
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  6. Booyah

    Booyah Semi-Pro

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    yeah hopefully in the future we will have better judges, because i mean Valley of the Sun is Level 5 National, its pretty important, and if it determines who makes it to National tournaments, we don't want to be sending players who foot fault and cheat because they are use to no line judge.
     
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  7. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    I agree with you. But I must say that the parents and coaches should be addressing foot faults before they even get to this level. I am a certified official in Northern California. I work as a chair umpire on the professional tour and I do a good bit of juniors and collegiate roving/chairs in the section. In NorCal, we call foot faults. The reaction from some of the parents/coaches are astounding. When we are in the chair, we call them without warning since for sure we will be there for the whole match watching both players. When we are roving, if we see a footfault from off court, we will go on and let the players know that we will be calling footfaults. If they both correct the issue immediately then we leave the court after a few games (obviously it would be nice to have a chair umpire on every match, but financially not possible for the tournament which is why we can't stay for the whole match.) If it's not corrected, then we start calling foot faults. Then we end up getting yelled at by the parents and coaches. That doesn't really bother me as I have a lot of experience telling players at all levels why we call them. Some umpires don't want to deal with that, so they stop calling them. Part of coaching a player or teaching tennis to a player is making sure they know the rules and know that they are responsible for knowing the rules before they go on court. Foot faulting is a form of cheating. Why would you let your son/daughter/student going on court knowing they are going to do this?
     
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  8. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Part of the USTA officials training states that officials should not get involved in a match unless clearly needed. I agree with that and having them there in a roving capacity is better then nothing, like when I played juniors.

    Players should know when to get an official. I have the 3 strike rule for my son on clearly bad calls, first bad call ask if he saw the ball clearly out, second bad call let him know if it happens again you're getting a line judge, third bad call go get the line judge. Same goes for footfaulting if he can clearly see it.

    As for footfaults when I officiate in a roving capacity I handle it the same way as Woodrow1029.

    Roving officiating is going to vary some from tournament to tournament. For the most part I see the good out weighing the one-off bad officiating.
     
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  9. Daycrawler

    Daycrawler Rookie

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    Not to mention biased. Some refs or judges won't give point penalties to certain players and so forth.
     
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  10. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    examples? I'd love to hear this one..
     
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  11. Booyah

    Booyah Semi-Pro

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    well a line judge came to me and told me I was footfaulting during warm up, and said if i did it during the match the judge would come back and penalize me. i told the judge politely that my opponent was also clearly footfaulting and the judge never came over to him to give him a warning, and rather the judge never came back to our court at all.
     
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  12. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    well, maybe he was stuck on another court, or maybe you corrected the foot fault. Who knows. Doesn't mean he was biased..
     
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  13. Booyah

    Booyah Semi-Pro

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    well the judge never talked one on one with my opponent who was foot faulting. the judge just decided to call me out first without giving a warning to the other player, i think thats biased. should have talked to us both.
     
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  14. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    maybe he didn't see the other one doing it? Doesn't sound biased to me. Maybe called to do something else. A lot of times at these tournaments there is only one official who is the roving umpire and the referee at the same time. There is a lot to be done and may have to go to another court. Ideally, yes it is better to watch a game with each player serving.. Sometimes, it's just not possible.
     
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  15. Daycrawler

    Daycrawler Rookie

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    Like for example, my opponent threw his racket like four times in a row in front of the ref and the ref made some comment like,"Try to keep it in your hand ______" His first name. I threw my racket after I lost the first set like 5-7 and the ref gave me a warning and said next time It was a point etc.
     
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  16. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    So, you realize that the warning he gave you is the exactly the same as your opponent. The next time your opponent did it it would have been a point penalty. There is no official warning in USTA tennis anymore. Maybe your racket toss was more severe. The amount of times you do it doesn't always mean that your opponent can do it the same amount of times.
     
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  17. Daycrawler

    Daycrawler Rookie

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    The rules actually clearly state that any throw of the racket is to be considered a point penalty no matter the severity of the throw.
     
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  18. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    No it does not..

    Here is a piece from page 135 of the USTA friend at court

    FAC Comment IV.D-2: Guidelines for Implementing The PPS
    An accepted method of match control is for an official to caution a
    player whose behavior is borderline. The official should never caution
    a player whose misconduct is clear; instead, the official should issue
    a Code Violation.
    Implementation of the Point Penalty System requires judgment. If the
    player’s action is such that the official believes that the action should not
    be repeated, then at least a caution is required and a Code Violation may
    well be appropriate. A “yes” answer to any of the following questions
    requires action under the PPS.

    After reading this, look at page 139. I don't know how to quote the table on here. But it is a good chart of what is considered borderline and what is a clear code violation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2008
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  19. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    f-bombss

    I was at a clay court Nat'l in Florida and a boy from Fl was cussing at the the top of his lungs,throwing racket,everything.. one time it was so obvious all the spectators from the adjacent court all turned around to look at him,nearby was a roaming umpire and he said nothing... I'm guessing he's from FL too... I told the tournament desk along with another parent... nothing happened.... his name is Dennis N a high ranked 16 boys from FL a total idiot...
     
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  20. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    I hate USTA umpires who....

    I hate USTA umpires who....

    1. overrule === I went to a ITF event in Carson and it was a semi-final round, the match had an umpire and 5 line judges ... the woman umpire(when I was there) over ruled the lines judges 5 times in nine games... why do they do that? crazy b!tch .. I find that female umpires are the worse. they want to be macho and be a totalitarian figure...

    2. try to call the far side lines == there's a woman umpire in the SoCal area,she's a total bitxh .. a short midget size woman who stands on a chair to call lines.. she is totally blind compare to the what the Jr. eyes can see, but see calls lines when they don't ask,and she even tries to call the far side lines.. standing at the netpost and trying to call the closest side line is hard enough,but this crazy woman calls the far side lines..

    But overall I must say that the USTA umpires are very good... they know how to handle most of the Jr.. but those very few rotten apples really should be weeded out... if there's enough complaints maybe they will wake up and do a better job..
     
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  21. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Just out of curiosity, was it your kid or you that these calls go against?
     
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  22. Booyah

    Booyah Semi-Pro

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    well see here the thing, i pointed out to the line judge when the player did it. like the judge talked to me during the warm up when the judge gave the warning to me and i pointed out right away that the person was clearly doing it as well. i think thats pretty biased. to point me out first and not talk to the other person when that person was doing the same thing at the same time.
     
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  23. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    For me as an official, I would never say anything to a player during the warmup. I know when I practice serves in the warmup, I don't particularly care where my feet are especially when I first start hitting them. I know that in the warmup, sometimes my feet are 2 feet inside the baseline. I still don't think it's biased. Clueless umpire, very possibly. There are several of them out there that have no business being out there. So why he would say anything during the warmup I don't know.
     
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  24. BigBUBBA

    BigBUBBA Semi-Pro

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    I'm not a big fan of them at local tournaments but at the bigger ones I like it. I had one bad experience w/ one though...some kid requested a judge before the match and the whole time she was judging she was loudly sipping a soda and chewing a snicker and leaning on the net (technically I could have called a let everytime)
     
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  25. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    no just watching ... she overruled both players randomly.. as USTA official,are you trying to say that overrules are OK? 5 overrules in a span of 9 games when there are line judges?? I know on the pro level they hate when the chair umpire overule.. you're just being that defensive superiority BS mindset that a lot of USTA officials have...


    "Just out of curiosity, was it your kid or you that these calls go against?[/QUOTE]"

    BS= woodrow
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2008
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  26. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    "

    BS= woodrow[/quote]
    I believe that overrules are ok as long as it is a clear mistake. I would rather see an overrule on a clear mistake than let the mistake go.

    A lot of times on these boards someone who complains that much about footfaults or overrules is the one that they were called against.

    I don't think that umpires should be overruling too frequently, and yes some do, but it is possible for a line crew to miss 5 calls in 9 games. You only see it one way. I have said many times in different postings that there are umpires that get too involved and are too over officious. But most of us are not that way. And your first post was pure hatred. For you to single out women, using words like crazy bi!tch, and I am the one using defensive superiority BS? You are full of it. We are just out there (most of us anyway) to make the matches as fair as possible.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2008
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  27. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    overruling


    well I know if I was working a line and I constantly get overruled by the chair umpire,I'd have more than words to say to her... she's directly telling everyone who's watching that I'm not competent when we're supposed to support one another as an officiating team...
    and yes I am singling her out because there's no way she can see a deep far opposite side lines better than someone who's standing straight on that line..

    and if you read my previous post I do,commend most of the USTA officials,but there are certain circumstances that really irks me...
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2008
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  28. SoCal10s

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    I hate USTA umpires who....

    #3 just walk on to the court right in the middle of a point and/or a tight situation and start giving instructions to the players...

    there was a another idiot USTA official ,I think he is a European guy, this guy was calling a match last year in a level 2 national, it was a tight second set and these two players are highly ranked outstanding players... this idiot umpire gave one player a point penalty because he did not call out the score... the score was 40-15 and with the point penalty it became 40-30, he was serving for a hard fought second set...he lost his concentration, he lost the service game and set.. because this idiot umpire wanted to impose his will on the players...
    he later did the same things to the other player from the same match... at least he was consistent with being an idiot.. why did he have to do that? both players knows what the score was,plus he is standing right there on the court flipping the score keeper on every game... why disrupt the flow of the competition to enforce something like that??
     
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  29. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Read the Code. #31: The server shall announce the game score before the first point of the game and the point score before each subsequent point of the game.

    I wish all umps would enforce calling out the score. I watched a SW player lose a match against a seeded SoCal player at the Copper Bowl because neither player called the score and they had a disagreement. The SW player had broken the SoCal player at 30 but because they couldn't agree on the score, were forced to start at 30-all which was the last time they agreed. Should have at least played at 40-30 due to the "Points played in good faith" but the players had such different ideas of the score, the ump had to go with 30-all.

    My own son has screwed himself out of many points and games because of not calling the score. You'd think the "Fool me once..." adage would prompt him to always call the score but it doesn't happen.
     
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  30. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    tough job


    as you see here, when the guy does his job and enforce the 'USTA code' and overdo it, guys like me call him an idiot and then when they don't enforce the code, guys like you want it done more often.... it's a tough gig just like being a policeman,you have to use common sense and the correct judgement... there are always gonna be people who will cheat and do the wrong thing to take advantage whenever they can,so it's rally a tough call to always be a strict keeper of the rules and codes.. I'm sure a lot of police officers see code breakers all day,but they 'do' ignore it, up to a point... same here... you got to know where to draw that fine line... one side you have admirable USTA official and on the side of the fine line ,you have an idiot USTA official ..
     
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