Llodra fined.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Paul Murphy, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. Paul Murphy

    Paul Murphy Hall of Fame

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    Michael Llodra was fined $US2,500 ($A2,300) for using a racial slur during his opening-round match against Ernests Gulbis at the ATP Tour's Indian Wells tournament, officials said on Sunday.
    The French player yelled at a Chinese female supporter of Gulbis during his 6-3 5-7 7-6 (7-3) win over the Latvian on Friday.
    The incident was witnessed by Canadian journalist Tom Tebbutt who wrote about it on his social networking Twitter site.
    ``Sat very first row -- dead centre behind the court for Llodra-Gulbis -- heard a lot. Deplorable behaviour by Llodra -- read next tweet.
    ``ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman.''
    Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballboys and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologise for his actions.

    AAP.
     
    #1
  2. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    Well in that case, I'm glad he was forced to retire today.

    I hope he never wins another match in his career.


    But seriously, that does sound pretty bad. Hopefully he doesn't pull a Koellerer and start provoke players with racial slurs and epithets. Pretty deplorable behavior considering he's fair good friends with guys like Monfils and Tsonga.
     
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  3. phnx90

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    Someone tell me how this is racist?
     
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  4. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

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    Racist because he is against Chinese people I guess.
     
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  5. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    It's racist because he associates the behaviour which he dislikes with a racial group, which is pretty ignorant and silly. It's the individual and her behaviour which he should be taking a disliking to not the racial group to which she belongs.

    It would be like if a guy crashes into my car. I would never say "Damn blacks" or even think it because its the not the race that has anything to do him crashing into my car.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  6. Cormorant

    Cormorant Professional

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    Frakkin serve and volleyers, they're all the same.
     
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  7. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    Because he's calling her Chinese, but he doesn't know for a fact that she actually is Chinese.

    It's like calling someone a Mexican, when they could be from any number of Latin American countries, or even Spain.
     
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  8. FlamEnemY

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    She looks Chinese and he called her Chinese.

    It's racist.

    I guess.
     
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  9. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    They should have just fined him for abuse as its too difficult to get into an issue like racial abuse unless you have a proper hearing, etc., where wider issues can be canvassed and that would be a ridiculous waste of time and money.

    By itself, referring to someone's presumed ethnicity when insulting them is not necessarily racist, especially when you're dealing with people who don't belong to groups having some historically grounded animosity.
     
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  10. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    wow, I didn't realise saying what country somebody was from was racist!
    I will have to remember that the next time I have a conference call with our office with my French counterparts. Darn it, I just did it.
    Brave New World.
     
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  11. FlamEnemY

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    Also, be sure to never order black coffee.
     
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  12. Bobby Jr

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    Because "Chinese" has clear and obvious ethnic connotations (Asian) whereas "Americans"does not.
     
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  13. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Sombreros can be a bit misleading sometimes I agree. :lol:
     
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  14. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Murdering someone because of the colour of their skin is one end of the spectrum of racism and attempting to verbally abuse someone via their race is at the other end of the spectrum of racism - but they're both racism.
     
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  15. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Ethnicity and race are not the same thing. For example; it is perfectly feasible to be of Scottish ethnicity and be black. 'American' is a perfectly valid ethnicity.
     
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  16. wrxinsc

    wrxinsc Professional

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    that's racis.
     
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  17. phnx90

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    Racism is basically hating on a race based on poor or no justifications (e.g. stereotypes).

    If the woman took offence at being labelled a Chinese when she was not, wouldn't that make her the racist? What's wrong with being Chinese?

    There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau. Chances of assuming an Asian to be Chinese and getting it right is very high. In fact, you could even say Llodra's unlucky that the woman wasn't Chinese (unless it's one of those people who are ethnically Chinese and think they are Canadian, having lived there for a grand total of about 4 years; I hate those people).

    Merely adding the word "****ing" before "Chinese" doesn't make the overall sentence/statement racist. The word is used as an emphasis and nothing more.

    Besides, it's not like he could've stopped to ask her name, age, sex (because you know, you could offend transvestites, transsexuals and hermaphrodites who possess most or all the characteristics of a woman, but are not, applying the same logic), nationality, ethnicity and sexual orientation, before mouthing her off on (inter)national TV, right?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  18. jmverdugo

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    I think it is not racist, incredible stupid yes, but not racist.
     
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  19. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    He added a word before Chinese and a word referring to the female genitalia after that word.

    So he could be equally accused of gender hatred as well as race hatred but of course hardly a mention of the full insult anywhere.
     
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  20. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Of course all of this diminishes the fact that he insulted, not a GROUP of people, but an INDIVIDUAL.

    He wasn't being anti-women or anti-Chinese, but rather was insulting to a specific individual.

    He should be fined. Not to the extent that Serena Williams was fined, of course, as he did not threaten to kill anybody. But he should be fined, as he insulted an individual.
     
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  21. phnx90

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    If the word is "c_nt", then that isn't enough to qualify as misogyny.

    Seriously, people are getting way too PC for their own good.
     
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  22. Tammo

    Tammo Banned

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    Other people say stuff much worse than that every day. Llodra was just frustrated and wasn't thinking right because he was playing a match.
     
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  23. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Wasn't the nadal clan equally racist against the French?
    Why didn't they get fined?
     
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  24. Bobby Jr

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    It's quite obvious that I know that given the post of mine you quoted.

    So you don't have to scroll back up I said: "Because "Chinese" has clear and obvious ethnic connotations (Asian)..." - which it does. Chinese people are ethnically Asian - currently and historically. It doesn't mean every single Chinese person is of Asian ethnicity - but they're pretty close.

    "... whereas "Americans"does not." - 'American' isn't a race, it is merely a reference to a location (USA) where there is no one clear ethnic group which dominates as is the case in China. It's multi-ethnic.

    The only people who could say, in normal terms, with any general understanding and use of the term to be ethnically American are American Indians. "White" Americans are predominantly anglo-saxon in their ethnicity. This group is even called Anglo-American and you can tell their broad ethnic origins by the fact they speak English, have English lineage and English cultural histories going back only a relatively short period in historical terms. Most other ethnicities in America of course also speak English, but for different reasons - they were forced to or had to in order to integrate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  25. phnx90

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    Because the French love Rafa.
     
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  26. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Yeah...the nadal is lucky that the great French people are so forgiving and gracious.

    Imagine how the Spaniards would react if subjected to the same, despicable ethnic slurs...
     
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  27. magnut

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    Its racist because it refers to culture and people are not allowed to be refered to as cultural anymore unless they are a minority.

    Example....An african American can refer to another African American as Black (or even the N word) or a Caucasion as whitey (Honkey in the old days) but a white cannot say anything that pertains to a cultural label. Instead that white person is to address all minorities as sir or mam.

    I dont make the rules. Its just the way it is. Its a political based model based around making everyone hate each other.

    I say ban that racist frenchy for life!
     
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  28. phnx90

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    Looks like we'll just have to wait it out until a player is hated collectively by a Spanish audience first.
     
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  29. magnut

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    Nadal gets away with it because he is kind of a special needs case. Its pretty hard to label someone a racist when they have a mental disorder like Rafa. Nadal has learned to take his handicap though and turn it into a strength.
     
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  30. joechiang

    joechiang New User

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    Woww,this thread is epic for me.
    Just clarify two things:
    1.the girl is a Korean American,has nothing to do with Chinese.
    2.Maybe Llodra was only insulting one person,but translating it directly into Chinese is not like that.Maybe it's only different language habits problem.
    As Llodra also said"putain foutu chatte chinois"to the girl,and his so-called apology is really impressive,I learn a lot from the civilized world people.
     
    #30
  31. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    I don't think he was as racist as the Spanish national basketball team.

    [​IMG]
     
    #31
  32. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    It was obviously racist. I mean what's the point in him stating her race? or ethnicity or whatever? If you're angry at someone you call them a jerk. And you get your value out of the word jerk to express your feeling toward them. But then if you say 'black jerk', well what's the point of that? What additional value is there in adding the 'black' descriptor, other than racism? so I think he was quite obviously racist.

    The bigger question is, is this wrong? Are people not allowed to be racist? Are neoNazis not allowed to play professional tennis?
     
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  33. magnut

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    I will see your clarification and raise you.....

    That only actually matters if your Asian. For everyone else all Asian are considered Chinese.

    Its like when New Zealand Kiwis get bent out of shape when people call them Ausies. The rest of the world does not really give a rip.
     
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  34. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    My guess is that he was focussed on an individual, but it is interesting that attitudes to women barely registered as compared to the race angle.



     
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  35. magnut

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    Right he should have just said...."that woman". Then we could say he is shovenist pig instead of racist. Better yet.... call her a skinny or fat woman. Then we could say he is discrimatory towards fat or thin people.

    Ah, it just never ends does it.
     
    #35
  36. joechiang

    joechiang New User

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    I learn a new thing.That's sweet.
     
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  37. phnx90

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    Yeah, see now that's just downright insulting.

    For most people, "jerk" does not suffice when they're properly pissed-off. Words like "f_cking" tend to be the go-to word, but that in itself is an emphasis, so does not mean anything. Plus, it was directed at someone, so he would've instinctively looked for a word to describe the person. She was female and Asian, so the choices would've probably been either "chienne" or "chinois". Regardless of which he chose, he'd have been labelled a hater of one form or another.

    Should racist people be allowed to play tennis? Of course, because then we ought to practice what we preach. Can't exclude people on their beliefs, unfounded or otherwise, just the same way we shouldn't make judgments on other people on their colour, unfounded or otherwise.
     
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  38. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    China is also multi-ethnic, and race is not really a useful term.

    The fact is that referring to any ethnic or national group in a derogatory manner could be regarded as racist in popular terms.

    If you take what Llodra said and substituted American for Chinese it could be construed as racist.



     
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  39. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    'Jerk' was just an example. Could have been 'Effing Jerk' or stupid F jerk, etc, etc Doesn't matter. You are angry at them and the words you choose should stand for what you feel. There is no value in pointing out she is chinese from a purely anger standpoint. So what if she was female and Asian? What's the point in pointing it out??????? The only reason is if he were racist towards chinese. What does he gain by saying she is chinese? All he needs to do is look at her and call her 'stupid' or 'biche' or whatever. Why chinese?

    Then he shouldn't have been fined for being racist, which he clearly was.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  40. DjokovicForTheWin

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    In China if a chinese person said "damn american", that would be racist there. Here it's the reverse.
     
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  41. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    If someone is bald and is sitting among people who have hair, I bet references to hairlessness is going to figure prominently in your insults if you think they warrant it, but does that mean you really have a thing about bald people?

    This is the way of the world, but despite that ...

    The fact is that his behaviour was impolite and borish and completely inappropriate anywhere in public, let alone a tennis court.



     
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  42. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Yes! Indeed you do. But baldness is certainly not the same thing as race. Big difference. Impolite is calling someone stupid or jerk. Adding chinese to that makes it racist.
     
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  43. DjokovicForTheWin

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    So if Llodra was playing in Israel and he said to someone in the crowd, damn Jew, that wouldn't be racist huh? LOL. Let's see how well that goes over with the Mossad :)
     
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  44. magnut

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    We really need to get past this racism stuff and just start fining people for having opinions that we dont agree with.

    Personally i think he should be fined just for being French reguardless of anything he says. The same goes for every other French player. Except Gasquet of course. He gets a pass because his off court training consists of hard work and making out with cocain snorting strippers. For this Richard can say whatever he wants.
     
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  45. phnx90

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    I'm no native French speaker, so I can't think of words that are used like the word "jerk", which is more commonly used for men rather than women in English.

    There is no point in pointing her race out of course, beyond the fact that it was his observation. She's Asian, so he thought she was Chinese. Then again, so would've anybody else. Calling her "chienne" (b_tch in French, IIRC) would've ostensibly made him a misogynist (and I wouldn't have thought so).

    People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. If we had the luxury of rationalising our words, we'd have not said anything at all. Therefore pointing out the value or lack thereof of pointing out her race is irrelevant. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).

    He'd have been fined for being racist even if it were obvious to everybody that he wasn't, simply because it'd have been bad for PR to let an incident like that slide. Even more so the case because Llodra is white and male, and people love to accuse white men of racism. Hell, it's supposedly common practice for guilty "coloured" suspects to accuse policemen of racism when they get arrested.

    Not the same. We can't penalise people for things they haven't done yet. We can however, penalise them for what they have done, in much the same way that we can't deprive potential criminals of the ability of being a part of society by locking them up in prison before they have actually committed a crime.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  46. jmverdugo

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    why? in this case he used the term Chinese to distinct her, that was the first thing that came to his mind, he is not saying that being chinese is a bad thing (I have the feeling that you guys really think that being called chinese is a bad thing!). He could have gone with other thing but I guess that saying ----ing woman with slanted eyes, black hair and red shirt was too specific?!
     
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  47. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Adding Chinese doesn't make it racist, it merely adds a reference to 'Chinese-ness', to use a made-up word.

    If you look at what he said all the derogatory references referred to 'woman-ness', to use another made-up word.

    All three references are sexual. In fact, if you did substitute jerk for Chinese the meaning of the insults would not change.

    All his derogatory utterances are about women, not Chinese women, just women. And that one woman he thought was Chinese, wrongly.



     
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  48. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Fine so he keeps the observation in his mind, what's the point in explicitly saying she is chinese??????? What does he get out of it????? People wouldn't say oh look there walks a man on the street with shoes on. There is no point in saying he is wearing shoes out of the blue. And there was nothing Llodra could gain from making the out loud observation that she was chinese, unless it was racially motivated.

    Even if Monfils said it, it would have been racist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  49. magnut

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    Depends....Is the guy in the crowd Jewish?

    Does Lodra have some secret ties with the Nazis? If he does we could be talking hate crime and Mike may deserve some time in prison.

    What fantasy world do you live in where French people are polite towards other cultures? Lodra is actually known for being a pretty nice guy on the tour. Last I heard he wasnt killing puppies and raping women in his spare time.
     
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  50. DjokovicForTheWin

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    What's the point in adding the chinese reference???? :) What does he gain from it?
     
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