Llodra fined.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Paul Murphy, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I laugh about it now. I even laughed about it then. I've always been against racial slurs and discrimination, but never really cared that much when they were said to me.
     
  2. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    Well the "Tom & Jerry" part isn't sarcastic, and I'm in agreement with you.
     
  3. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    Hahahaha sorry!

    Yeah, I have no problem with political correctness. My problem is with keeping up with what is acceptable to say in public, since it seems like the list of words and phrases that are acceptable shrinks by the day.
     
  4. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Your not supposed to "keep up" with it. Your supposed to not talk. Thats why the Nazis designed it.

    So if people dont have a problem with it then its simple.......shut up.
     
  5. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    There is no need for PC in the circumstances you have described. You're saying that you're righting a wrong by forcing white people to respect minorities.

    Unfortunately, it's not that simple. First off, you're not actually forcing the respect on those people who committed the prejudices; rather, you're forcing people who have little to do with racism, to respect people that they never derided in the first place. Meanwhile, those who are actually racist just are not going to respect minorities, because political-correctness has no way to compel them to do so. Racism per se is not a criminal offence or civil wrong.

    Secondly, that mainly conservatives would find PC abhorrent is also a misconception, because it impinges on free speech, which is, as far as the USA is concerned, something celebrated by both ends of the political (and ethical) spectrum. You say that PC doesn't stop anyone from saying anything, but again, that's not what PC is. I'll say again: to be PC is to not say anything that will offend others. What you're describing as a good thing is straightforward politeness and respect.

    The consequences of saying something that isn't PC usually involve being labelled a hater of some shape or form. If I were to state (based on statistics that some 40% of people in prison are black) that most low-level criminals are black, I'd be labelled a racist and not a shred of thought would be given by most, of the value of my statement. As such, there is little room for debate, and what was originally the marketplace of ideas merely boils down to pedantic name-calling by grown-up men and women who ought to know better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  6. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I never said P.C. is about respect, I know better than that. Its about not conspicuously and outwardly offending others, regardless of one's true intent or feelings... and its not just about white people and minorities; its about all entrenched majorities as a group (measured by power/superiority status) and historically oppressed minorities as a group, i.e. men vs women etc...

    Just because an individual, of an entrenched majority class, may have not personally discriminated against an individual of a historically oppressed minority class; does not mean that the individual in question has not benefitted from being apart of that majority class and therefore are not granted the current affirmative action benefits (of which i include political correctness in this discussion) of a minority.

    Of course in an Utopian world, which many conservatives like to believe exist now, this is unfair.

    And yes P.C. does not stop anyone from saying anything! Its only if you choose to abide by the ever changing standards of political correctness that your free speech is stifled. Again, however no one is forced to be politically correct. It seems as though you are treating political correctness as a verb or some active force. Perhaps it is just a semantic difference in our arguments regarding this point...
     
  7. stringertom

    stringertom G.O.A.T.

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    Especially f***ing left-handed S&V'ers! You cannot be serious!
     
  8. tacou

    tacou Legend

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    hah people can't even agree why this is racist

    weird though Llodra seemed like such a chill guy
     
  9. Hominator

    Hominator Hall of Fame

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    If Llodra said that in French, and the woman didn't understand what he said, was what he said to that woman offensive? If so, to whom, was it offensive?

    Honest question.
     
  10. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Maybe to her brother who speaks french?
     
  11. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    It's simple - ethnicity and race are not the same thing.

    If someone said "stupid American" it may be offensive but almost no-one would consider it racist. Americans are not a race of people, nor are there a group of people commonly referred to as the American race

    Native Americans would be the only group who could plausibly take legitimate offence in a racial framework. Even then, I think they identify themselves less in those terms in modern era and more in terms of their tribal origins (which are basically all common technically).

    Of course China is multi-ethnic (despite hundreds of years of efforts by various rulers :p) - but they are in the huge majority Asian by race.
     
  12. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Not sure where you live in but this is incorrect. If you'd travelled to SE Asia you'd see it's blatantly obvious that ethnic Malays for example are about a similar to Chinese as native Americans are to Spanish people. Ditto for Central Asian (India etc).

    Well no-one really ever refers to New Zealanders as "New Zealand Kiwis" - except the most ignorant out there. They're either "New Zealanders" or "Kiwis" - they mean the same thing in common usage so no need to duplicate the efforts.

    Also no New Zealander ever took racial offence to be called an Aussie and vice versa - much like Canadians don't if you mistakenly call them Americans. People just like to be known for where they're from, not their neighbours. Nothing more and there's certainly no racial implication/overtone.
     
  13. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    LOL :). You crack me up.
     
  14. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    In that I fell for your effort at humour? :lol:
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  15. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Sir, are you suggesting that only a black person would crash into your car? That's racist ;) Jk :p
     
  16. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Your view is tantamount to saying that nobody can be a racist unless the group being vilified is a bona fide race.

    But there is no such thing as a bona fide race.

    Do some research and you'll find that modern scientific research is none too happy with the idea of races.

    This is what Wikipedia says and in my opinion it is essentially correct:

    While biologists sometimes use the concept of race to make distinctions among fuzzy sets of traits, others in the scientific community suggest that the idea of race is often used [5] in a naive[6] or simplistic way. Among humans, race has no taxonomic significance; all living humans belong to the same hominid subspecies, **** sapiens sapiens.[7][8] Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies [9] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived traits. Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[10] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits.[6][11]



     
  17. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    This is the only person that gets it.
     
  18. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Of course it's true the idea of race is suspect. 'Races' simply arose because some people turned left and other right during the migration out of Africa. That being said races are recognized despite their biological falsity.
     
  19. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    Did he recently marry Brooke Shields. :)

    Probably a little cranky that day. People should not be judged on one outburst especially when they are in a zero sum game pressure packed situation. Let's face it, some fans are pretty annoying. At least he didnt go all McEnroe/Natase/Connors on her/them. :)

    BFD. Guy has a pretty one handed backhand though.

    Saw him play Roddick once about 10 years ago. He got into an argument with the chair ump (might have been Norm Christ or Steve Ulricht), he went all Italian on him with the hand gestures, etc. Had the crowd LOL. Classic !

    Edit: Wasn't Llodra who is French, it was Davide Sanguinetti. Saw Llodra play Hewitt during the same tournament sans histrionics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  20. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    He actually associated the behaviour he disliked far more with the fact that she was a woman if the three adjectives that he is purported to have used were indeed used.

    He used none of the adjectives used to vilify habitually people of Chinese ethnicity.
     
  21. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Exactly. Its not racist, he maybe a jerk for saying it but it isnt racist. The PC police have made everyone so sensitive that anything they hear that offends someone is labeled racist. When people say "ugly Americans" they are never labeled racists.
     
  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    +1.

    I am amazed that folks have so much difficulty with this concept. If you drag a person's race/ethnicity into a dispute having nothing to do with race in an effort to put them down, you are being racist.

    Honestly. Do you think you can get into a dispute with somebody and toss out something like "Dirty Jew" and not have a problem?

    It is not a defense that the person is actually the race or ethnicity that you selected. It's that you are bringing it up to disparage the person.
     
  23. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Being Jewish or American has nothing to do with race.

    Llodra said nothing equivalent to the expression you quote.

    Indeed, we have little certain evidence of what he did say.

    What little 'evidence' there is indicates misogyny.



     
  24. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

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    WOW..lol..So many indians down here.I don't know how it feels being racially abused or a being a target of a racist slur,as I have never been abroad.:)..But many people is US are very racistt.Just ask the BLACK communit in US.They have been subjected to humiliation and are repeatEdly called N******.:(.It's just a small example,I don't want to open can of worms down here.
     
  25. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Rush Limabugh's no fluke!
     
  26. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    It's funny, I'm mixed race (Caucasian - Afro Caribbean) yet the most common racism I've received in my life has been racial slur that is handed out to Indians and Pakistanis, at least in the UK. My skin is more lightly coloured and last time I went to see Hull City FC live, an old guy next to me suggested after the game that I go home and 'have fun with my prayer mat', presuming me to be a Muslim probably based on the fact I was sporting a rather impressive beard at the time. I've been repeatedly shouted at by people throughout my life, the most common intended insult being 'Paki'.

    I stand there thinking, if you're going to be racist, at LEAST get it right!:)
     
  27. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Sadly, that rarely seems to matter. When Don Imus called the Rutgers women's basketball team 'nappy haired ho's', nobody cared that he called them w.h.o.r.e.s.
    As the father of a couple of daughters in sports, that troubled me quite a bit!
     
  28. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    oh my dear... are my eyes deceiving me?
     
  29. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Woohooo, someone else gets it too. Unfortunately most of the idiots are arguing over race/ethnicity/nationality and failing to understand the essence of the issue.
     
  30. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    sorry if mentioned before but the term/word you are looking for is: xenophobia
     
  31. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    It may be unfair to judge Llodra until we know all the facts.

    Was the spectator actually Chinese?
    What was the spectator doing to **** him off? Did it warrant his outburst?

    These cannot go unanswered.
     
  32. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Everything is a morass of contradictory statements.

    The bottom line is that he behaved badly to various people so he deserved the fine.
     
  33. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Stupid person with two legs and wearing shoes with laces, oh yeah and incidentally, Chinese too, stop making noise during my matches.
     
  34. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Its human nature to bring up the most marked characteristic in situations like this...

    If he were a 300lb male, he would've probably said "You fat blablah"
     
  35. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

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    My Oh My!! You clearly misunderstood me.I am indian(wheatish/brown skin)..The bolded clearly specifies that indians and pakistanis have subject to immense humiliation in counrties such as UK,AUSTRALIA,US(where indians/pakistanis population is quite high).I have never passed any racist comment in my life nor ever made fun of any religion,caste or race.
    And the example you are giving me is more of a western thinking of people,it's like,"Oh look at this guy he's got a long beard and looks asian...he might be muslim..what the heck he is doing here??". Specially after 2001 WTC incident,many muslims has been very unfairly targeted.:(..
     
  36. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    If she was here in America, she most likely was American (obviously of some Asian heritage)!

    Point is, he was being discriminatory based on the phenotype of the woman in question. The discrimination is tantamount to racism or ethnic(ism).

    All of these various phenomena we are discussing are social behaviors based on social constructs. As someone stated before; there is only one human race. As evidence we all can make love and make beautiful babies (as a matter of fact - the 'mixed' kids tend to be the prettiest :) )!
     
  37. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    You mean Native American Wells, right?
    Up in Canada, they call it First Nations Wells.
     
  38. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Well, you would be in the minority!

    Racism most certainly exist in regions besides the 'West', and definitely in India!
     
  39. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Good!

    That was my point.

    I hate that name "Indian" Wells! Judging from past events at that site, the name (or ideas behind the name) are clearly indicative of the thinking of many in that area.
     
  40. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    That was funny.
    I know an Italian guy who is pretty stoic, actually. Breakin' down walls every day! But his sister still has a 'stache and his hair smells of olive oil.
    Kidding.
    Didn't a wise man once say, "Everybody's a little bit racist"?

    'My black friend' is a really safe driver.
    He is 'articulate', too.

    I am 'tolerant'.

    ^I am kidding ... Brothers love it when you say those things.


    Allez Llodra. Apologize and learn from it. You elegant, serving and volleying Frog, you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  41. syke

    syke Professional

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    Chinese is both a race and a nationality...
    You have the real deal "Han" Chinese, and Chinese nationals who are Korean, Tibetan, Mongolian, Indian, Russian.

    Just like for e.g. French is both race and nationality..
    You have them by ethnicity, Swiss French, Belgian French.. and you have French that are Indian, Moroccan or Vietnamese. Look at Monfils... He is French but not French in race.
     
  42. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Sorry, but you're incorrect.

    French and Chinese are not races, they are considered designations of nationalities, i.e. a French or Chinese citizen.

    The Han Chinese are an ethnic group (the largest in the world).

    By scientific standards there is only one human race, as in all humans can mate and produce fertile offspring.

    By slightly less scientific standards (Anthropology or other humanities studies) there are 3 recognized human races mostly by social construct: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  43. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    These statements are fundamentally correct and everyone needs to memorize them.


     
  44. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The police like to divide the world into three human races by social construct and I'm not convinced that the Humanties are responsible, so apart from this qualification the statements above are correct.
     
  45. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    More important and regardless of the race / nationality issues, Llodra used the word Chinese to single out this person not as an insult, the insult was the word he used before and after, and frankly if you feel that being call Chinese is an insult then you are the one with problems. I am not defending him, he definitely did a very stupid thing but IMO it is not racist.
     
  46. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    He is correct in every way. But we also have to understand that race can be separated scientifically and socially. And the social aspects of race is what the general public uses to define it. It's there where we run into problems.
     
  47. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry but the humanities don't divide the world thus, and I do know.
     
  48. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    A survey, taken in 1985 (Lieberman et al. 1992), asked 1,200 American scientists how many disagree with the following proposition: "There are biological races in the species **** sapiens." The responses were for anthropologists:
    physical anthropologists 41%
    cultural anthropologists 53%[106]
    The figure for physical anthropologists at PhD granting departments was slightly higher, rising from 41% to 42%, with 50% agreeing. This survey, however, did not specify any particular definition of race (although it did clearly specify biological race within the species **** sapiens); it is difficult to say whether those who supported the statement thought of race in taxonomic or population terms.

    The same survey, taken in 1999,[107] showed the following changing results for anthropologists:
    physical anthropologists 69%
    cultural anthropologists 80%


    And this is among american anthropologists, the number of anthropologists who reject the idea of race would be far higher outside of the us.
     
  49. FlashFlare11

    FlashFlare11 Hall of Fame

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    That's a rather interesting survey, especially the results in 1999. I didn't expect such a high percentage of American scientists to reject the notion of biological race.

    The face of a changing mindset in America?
     
  50. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Scientists have interesting ways to scew evidence to support whatever agenda they are paid to support. They have become as trustworthy as doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers, and media.
     

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