Lobbers. We get no respect. No respect at all.

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    Trolling attempt successful.

    My comment was in response to Cindy saying shes going to crush the serves of the 3.0 guy because hes the clear weakness when partnered with a 4.0 girl for 7.0 mix. Someone who is double my age or older is not going to crush an 80 mph kick to their backhand.

    1) I doubt they're going to be able to run around it to hit a forehand.
    2) If they can crush backhands why would they ever get involved in these "lob wars" or moonballing?
    3) She would likely lob such a ball, which I believe, but thats hardly considered "crushing".

    Nice hyperbole, btw.

    Not every 3.0 has such a serve, or can place such a serve. Point being is that they do exist, and although they seem rare to you, there are lots of 3.0's who have 80 mph serves.

    I dont see whats so hard to believe about a 3.0 having an 80 mph serve that kicks decently to the backhand.

    I dont see whats to hard to believe about a 3.0 who is at sectionals who takes it a step further who can place their serves to the backhand side 80% of the time.

    This isnt top level tennis. We're not talking about a 120 mph first serve and a 80 mph second that kicks 6 ft. high. We're talking about 3.0's who serve 80 mph (which is certainly not fast) twice, with the first serve aggressively placed to the backhand.

    I've seen 10 year old kids hit 80 mph serves down the T? What makes you think a 25 year old 3.0 male cant hit a kick serve to the backhand with decent spin at 80 mph? Especially one whos playing at a play off or championship?

    You guys make no sense.
     
  2. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Well, OK. What is your USTA level and what leagues do you play? How is that going for you?

    That is not my intention.

    I do think you're being a little passive aggressive and silly, though. I mean, I keep telling you that I play adult and mixed. This year, I also played seniors for the first time. The overwhelming majority of my play occurs in leagues other than seniors. Please process that fact. To keep insinuating that my experience is based on the local nursing home league is bizarre.

    Oh, wow. That is an amazing statement, it really is.

    I remember one of my encounters with a true 3.0 guy. A nice fellow we met on the court when my 3.5 teammates and I needed a fourth. I partnered with him. At the time, he and I were under 50, and my two teammates/opponents were well over 50.

    My new 3.0 guy friend and I struggled to win games. Oh, sure. He had a lot of pace on his serve. Alas, they rarely went in and he DF'd a lot. He couldn't sustain a rally more than a few shots. He had no volley and couldn't pass when both opponents came to net. If that is how a computer-rated 3.0 guy plays, I have a hard time believing that a 2.5 guy would ever in a million years beat me.

    As far as 3.0 women being stronger than 3.5 seniors . . . I guess you could ask the only lady I was able to beat in singles this year: A young 3.0 woman. I only lost one game. Why? Her lack of consistency.

    I dunno. I play 7.0 non-senior mixed. I face a lot of 3.5 guys. I didn't feel overpowered by them at all. It felt like a fair fight to me, which is one reason why I have enjoyed 7.0 mixed.
     
  3. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, I got it from this:

    So right back at ya buddy.

    Look, you are getting flack here from me because you have said a number of things that are just not remotely consistent why my own experience playing at these levels, whether it be past or present. Apparently I am not the only one who has felt this way about some of your comments.

    The VAST majority of 3.0 guys I've ever hit with (and I've hit with quite a few) don't even have a kick serve at all. Sure, some have 80mph flat serves (that usually don't go in all that often), but I have yet to see a 3.0 with an 80mph kick serve. I'm sure a few might exist somewhere, but if your asking me to believe that "6.0 mix teams here have guys that serve 80-ish mph kicks to the backhand every single time" (your exact words), I don't. It's that simple.
     
  4. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    ^I mean, really.

    I play 8.0 mixed. There is exactly one -- repeat, one -- guy I have seen who hit anything approaching a top-notch kick serve. That would be my own 4.5 partner. He had a ridiculous kick serve that was effective against anyone's BH. The only player I saw deal with it well was another 4.5 guy.

    As for the 4.0 guys, many have hard, flat serves that (unlike 3.0/3.5 guys) go in. For their second serves, you see wimpy pushes, or a slow version of the fast serves. A few have a respectable second serve, but they are in the minority. Some have sweet slice serves that they can mix in, and that is devastating.

    I don't mean to denigrate the games of 3.0-4.0 guys. It's just that what Limibeans reports is very, very far from accurate based on what I have seen in USTA league play.
     
  5. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    This thread has become extremelly amusing. Either limibeans is seriously trolling or they have no clue what most USTA matches look like...
     
  6. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    ^Nah. More likely is that he plays at his club or at the parks, so he only sees what he sees. Folks who don't play USTA make a lot of assumptions.
     
  7. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I've yet to see any 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 or 4.5 with a consistent 80 MPH kick serve to the BH side. That's a very high-level serve. I've seen pro matches where the kick serves are consistently 85-95 MPH.

    There are some decent club players (4.5+) who can kick the serve consistently out wide but I'd put the speed at closer to 50 MPH. It's the kick that gets you, not the speed. I've never seen a good club kicker measured so that's just a guess.

    MagicianofPrecision could probably tell us what a good club player's kick serve speed is (4.5 to open level)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  8. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Exactly what I was thinking!

    Also, I don't think I've ever seen an 80MPH Kicker in person. Quite a few people have trouble topping that with their flat serve, yet alone their 2nd....

    -Fuji
     
  9. skipcromer

    skipcromer New User

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    I can guarantee you that if at anytime during a match my opponent complains about any type of shot I am hitting he will see about a thousand more of said shot.
     
  10. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    And normally, id agree with this, except maybe the part about 50 mph, because thats extremely slow. However, keep in mind that when I say a 3.0 has an 80 mph kick to the backhand, thats that only serve they have.

    -A 4.5+ player would have at least 3 different serves.
    -A 4.5+ player might be able to ace with a second serve.
    -A top tier 3.0 player would only have this serve, and another, which is basically a 60-70 mph no spin towards the backhand side as a second. They arnt going to ace anyone, but they are going to force a lot of errors and force a lot of weak returns.

    When 3.0's "practice" they really only focus on one thing. When I was telling the story about the 3.0 guy and girl who won nationals, you can tell their game was very simple and one dimensional. That one dimensional play wins low level championships.


    I was saying earlier about how a 3.0 player can have a 5.0 forehand, with 2.5 consistency and have no other parts of their game. The same thing can be said about serves.

    You dont judge a serves quality by the first serve, you look at the second.

    A 4.5 first serve with a 2.5 second is 3.0 quality play.
     
  11. SweetH2O

    SweetH2O Rookie

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    Yep, if Limibeans is going to keep racking up posts by arguing with everybody, it's time for him to list his credentials and experience. Otherwise, I'm going to start skipping over his posts. No big loss to him or me.

    I am always curious how all these USTA league players know how fast their serves are going. You don't know without a radar gun, and I've never seen a radar set up on a court except for a sponsored demo day or serving contest for fun.

    Oh, and a 5.0 forehand with 2.5 consistency doesn't exist. A 5.0 forehand includes the technique that makes it a repeatable stroke and has it go where it is intended. Hitting a forehand as hard as you can and hoping it goes in is not a 5.0 forehand.
     
  12. SweetH2O

    SweetH2O Rookie

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    Again, nobody has a 4.5 first serve with a 2.5 second. Anyone with a 4.5 first serve has practiced the stroke for hours and hours. Why would they practice that and then allow themselves to have a frying pan floating serve as a second serve? My guess is that you don't know what higher level strokes are. They are not defined by how hard the ball is hit.
     
  13. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Eh. It's a simple case of someone observing the very lowest levels of tennis (2.5, 3.0 and 6.0 mixed) and then assuming what they are seeing is awesome tennis. Some guy at 3.0 nationals might have a serve that is bothering other 3.0s, so Limibeans figures it's a really good serve.

    No one serves pro level serves like Limibeans describes without pro level technique. Pro level technique on any shot cannot be found anywhere at the 2.5/3.0 level. You know this because the result of pro level technique is pro level consistency.
     
  14. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    On the subject of serve speeds of league players . . .

    A few years back, I attended the Legg Mason Tournament. They had a little contest between matches in which rec players served on court, with Andy Roddick standing next to them. The rec players had earned the right to be there because they won a contest at Virginia Districts.
    We got to see their form and their serve speed as measured by the very radar gun used at the pro matches.

    I described the results in this thread:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=279812&highlight=real+people+can't+serve

    I would say it is highly unlikely that Limibeans has ever seen a 2.5/3.0 player hit a 120 mph flat serve or 80 mph kicker.
     
  15. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    Perfectly fine. There is no need to list my credentials because even if I did you could still wave the BS flag all day long. One of these days ill feel like wasting a few hours making a Youtube account and posting videos. This week would have been a perfect week since I had a lot of free time (obviously) except for the fact that I havnt played since Monday because I have a huge blister on my palm from a week of tournament play.

    Because when you've seen a large selection of serves at various speeds/spins you can start to approximate. The difference between a 70 mph and a 90 mph serve isnt that big. The difference between 90 and 110 is.

    -A 5.0 player who has 5.0 consistency who has 5.0 stokes has 5.0 results.
    -A 3.0 who has 2.5 consistency who has a 5.0 forehand has 3.0 results.
    -A 3.0 who has 3.0 consistency who has a 3.0 forehand has 3.0 results.

    Again, another person on this forum who cant seem to understand that a persons "game" is comprised of many different elements, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

    So heres my questions for you geniuses.

    If I can serve an 80mph kick serve to the backhand every time, im a 4.5?
    If I feel my volleying is of the 3.5 level, im a 3.5?
    If I have a 120 mph serve, I cant be a 2.5?
    If I have futures experience, I have to be a 5.5?

    All of those things are true. Whats my NTRP?

    You've obviously never taught anyone tennis or you'd know that 95% of the people will not immediately understand the concept of the racket head speed being almost the same on both first and second serves.

    When you tell them that you swing just as hard on your first serve as your second and you tell them to try it, I guarantee you they'll try to hit the same serve twice.

    You confused yet?
     
  16. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oooh, I'll take this one!!

    It's a trick question, and not a very good one.

    NTRP is a measure of your results in competitive matches. It is not a number pulled out of thin air based on how pretty or fast one particular shot might be.

    Your posts show a consistent lack of understanding of what NTRP is. For instance, you mentioned "benchmark" in a context that suggests it is a feather in one's cap or measure of ability rather than simply a designation that a player played in the post-season.

    Those of us who are experienced with league play can make some generalizations about what sorts of shots are common or rare at particular levels. Like, you won't see twist serves at 2.5 (well, not intentional ones, anyway).

    That is a far cry from trying to suggest that "if I feel my volleying is at a 3.5 level, I'm a 3.5."

    That you won't share your level etc. doesn't surprise me. It's a lose-lose for you. If you turn out to be a 3.0, folks will laugh that you think you have Nadal's serve. If you turn out to be playing futures and challengers, people will laugh that you are citing your experiences at 2.5/3.0/6.0 mixed.

    Your posts are interesting, though. I guess there's value in that on some level.
     
  17. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    Cindy, i agree that if you Lob more often, then they think you are lower level player. Last weekend, i used more lobs than i usually do because the guy was camping out 2 inch away from the net.
    And at the end of the match, he asked me if i was 4.0 ??? LOL
     
  18. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    I'm no guru when it comes to these things, but a 3.0 hitting a 80mph kicker to the bh would be a sight to behold. That is not an easy skill in this game, it takes time and effort to get it right. If a 3.0 had that serve, that is literally all they could have, because I don't see how they could still be a 3.0 with the time they would have had on court.
     
  19. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    I'm only responding to this because you contradicted yourself here and I find it quite hilarious that you're now agreeing with what ive been saying this whole time. If you didnt, id just keep ignoring you.

    That's exactly what I said. You're the one saying that no 2.5 has a 120 mph serve, or no 3.0 can serve a 80 mph kick like your 4.5 can.

    You just contradicted your last 10 posts. So which is it?

    Is your NTRP about performance (like ive been saying this whole time) or is it about what types of strokes you have (since you believe that no 3.0 or 2.5 has those abilities)?

    I've played USTA adult league in very broad range of the NTRP system.

    Also, way to down play a benchmark rating by saying "post-season" play when the reality is that they advanced to a play-off, sectional, or nationals. So, yeah, it is a "feather in ones cap" that they've bested the other teams in their area.

    Very few people will ever have a benchmark or tournament exclusive rating.

    Oh, do educate me. What is a twist serve? Is it like a slice or like a kick? There's really only one way to get the "twist serve" result. Tell me how.

    And besides, I thought you said NTRP was about a "measure of your results"? So, which is it?

    Dont know what this means.

    Because it would make no difference. Some people on this forum know what my NTRP is and some of them even know me away from the computer. So what?

    This isnt a popularity contest or a "my NTRP is bigger than your NTRP" competition. This is Talk Tennis.

    And please, what if I was a 5.0? What good would it be to say "I'm a 5.0 and (___my experiences___) far greatly exceed your at 3.5 and your lobs would be punished by me."?

    I've shared my experiences at the 2.5-3.5 level, both as a player and as an observer, simply saying that these lobwars you're getting involved with arnt going to carry you and your team to nationals. At your level of adult/senior/mixed you're going to play players in the 2.5-3.5 range. I dont see you playing 8.0 with a 4.0, and the 3.0/4.0 combo is rarer in 7.0 than 3.5/3.5 so why talk about what ive seen from 4.0's or greater?

    You're trying to take every cheap shot that you can. I've been nothing but patient with you, calm and reasonable.
     
  20. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oooh, I gotta go, so I'll just nab the low-hanging fruit before someone else beats me to it . . .

    Having a benchmark rating does NOT mean you have bested other teams in your area.

    It means that you played in at least one post-season match. This might or might not mean the benchmark player "bested" anyone.

    So. I currently have a benchmark 3.5 rating. This is because my 3.5 2010 team participated in the flight playoffs, and I played. I lost my match in straights, FWIW. Had I been bumped to 4.0, I would have been a 4.0B, yet I would have been one of the weakest 4.0s out there.

    Also, you do realize that I am discussing *team* tennis, right? So a player can be on a playoff bound team but be the weakest member of the team. That player may get crushed in one regular season match, win one regular season match through default, then play in the playoffs (because the captain needs a warm body). Yet that player will be a benchmark the next year. Some feather, eh?

    Conversely, the unbeaten star of the team might wind up without a benchmark rating that season simply because she took a vacation during the playoffs and didn't play. Does her lack of a benchmark rating mean anything? No.

    You are quite wrong to say that few people will ever have a benchmark rating. Again, the bar is pretty low. All you have to do is play a single playoff match. Almost everyone I know in tennis has had a benchmark rating at some point. This is because most folks get better over time and will at some point have the chance to play in the playoffs. It's no big deal.

    A benchmark rating does not equate to relative strength.
     
  21. teAlexis

    teAlexis New User

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    Limibeans = troll Don't waste your breath Cindy.
     
  22. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Limibeans, you're going to have major credibility issues here, when you make remarks like (paraphrasing) "I had a 120mph serve as a 2.5" and "top 3.0 players can serve 80mph kickers to the backhand".

    See, the thing is, serving at 120mph is really, really hard. Likewise with serving a 80mph kicker with directional control. These are D1-college or pro-level serves.

    You can't hit serves like that using just power, athleticism and raw talent. You also need really good technique - proper rotation, knee bend, weight transfer, and wrist pronation. And you need to practice it - a lot. This means that anyone who can hit a 120mph serve or a 80mph kicker has had years of instruction, and a great deal of practice time, in additition to being phyically talented. And such a person would then not be a 2.5 or a 3.0.

    So that means that either:

    1. You're purposefully exaggerating your claims of what 2.5 or 3.0 players can do, or

    2. You're blissfully ignorant of what 120mph serves and 80mph kickers actually look like.

    Which is it?

    Realize that in either case it doesn't do your credibility much good.
     
  23. PushyPushster

    PushyPushster Rookie

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    Heh. What range is that? 2.5 - 3.0? You sound like a guy who is very impressed that he can smash a 100mph serve into the bottom of the net. And hey, that's cool - just realize it's not everyone's cup of tea.

    Men's 3.5 doubles is filled with lobs and I'm not shy about starting that war myself. There's no shame in this pushers game. Maybe when I meet your mythical 3.0 who can decapitate my partner with his Overhead Of Doom I'll reconsider that strategy, but until then I'll stick with what works.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  24. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    I’ll take my shot at this one because I found the premise likewise difficult to believe. And because, our Limey friend seemed to corroborate it.

    And because, for reasons obvious to those who know me off-board, I'm a sucker for detective work.

    Ok, time for some research. I went back to the 2010 3.0 Mens Adult National Championships information posted on this page.

    Doorknob, there were, in fact two teams that won their “flight” and went straight to Nationals:

    Hawaii – went straight to Nationals. No surprise there. Geographically, I'm not even sure how they'd go about having a "league" on multiple islands. Still, they had a seemingly competitive 5-team regular season flight. They went on to convincingly win their Nationals flight and semis...before losing to The MS Champs in the National Finals. Impressive.

    The Southern Cal boys also went straight to Nationals after winning their 5-team flight. Not quite sure how Southern Cal struggled to have so few 3.0 teams (maybe some of the SoCal posters here can elaborate)...but, eh, they got their hats handed to them at Nationals finishing at the bottom of their flight. I'll also note they stand out as the only "Nationals" team not to win any line in any of their matches. That result is probably more in line with what we here on TT might have predicted coming from a relatively small flight and not slogging their way through Districts, Regionals and/or Sectionals.

    Of the other 15-teams at 3.0M Nationals last year, there were a few other teams that had some "lighter" routes to Arizona:

    SW – had a 2-team flight and 2-team sectionals. I thought this might be Mr. Bean's team but team numbers didn't match up and the Sectional event was indeed played with the Section representative narrowly winning all three "round robin" contests, 3-2.

    Missou Valley – had a 2-team flight but 4-team sectionals.

    And the Florida reps had a 3-team flight but competed in Regionals and Sectionals. The NorCal team initially emerged from a 2-team flight but, again, competed in Districts and Sectionals.

    So, what does all this mean? Well, you still gotta crawl over a lot of heads to get to the very, very top. And does it mean all of the players who competed at Nationals last October are necessarily "top-tier" 3.0 players? No. To make that kind of generalization, you'd need an analysis of what happened to all those players, i.e. were they bumped up at year-end. That, then, by the definition of how the USTA/NTRP system really works, is the best marker of a "top-tier" player of the prior year. But, however, couldn't that generally be said of any of the players who get bumped up: That they were top-tier players of their just-prior NTRP in that just-concluded calendar year.

    In that vein, then, the proof will be in the pudding so-to-speak of Cindy's self-label at year's end...if she is indeed bumped to 4.0.

    On that final note, I'll make this personal observation: While I have not met Cindy in person, I know who she is and have competed against some of the same opponents...at Districts and Sectionals. I will be more than shocked if she doesn't have to change her TT signature.

    Cindy. Lobber. Gets my respect. Gets my respect indeed.

    ^^
    Whew, and after all that, I still may post again on the whole lobbers rock concept. :p But then, maybe not.
     
  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ah, but I believe Limibeans also said he competed at sectionals at 2.5 without having played any previous matches. Is that possible, now or 10 years ago? I thought you always needed one match plus one default win minimum to be eligible.

    Another consistent weirdness about Limibeans posts: the dogged defense of the Mad Tennis Skillz of 2.5/3.0 players while at the same time dissing the skills of players with higher ratings.

    That has to be a first at TT. We have certainly had many posters exaggerate their own skills. Or claim their low-rated buddy has a pro serve. Yada yada yada. What we haven't had is someone diss the skills of those who are competing at a higher level than his own tennis bubble.

    It would be like having me claim my 3.5 friends can beat the pants off of 4.0 or 4.5 players.

    No. We cannot.
     
  26. gamerx52986

    gamerx52986 Rookie

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    After playing my first season as a 3.5 and having won my league in the Spring as a 3.0, I can say that I've yet to run across any player my level with the skills limi is claiming to see. I was told by many at the 3.0 level that my serve was the best they'be encountered. At best my first serve may be mid-eighties in speed but it hits in like maybe 50% of the time. My second serve is a pushed that is consistent but not overwhelming. Recently hit for an hour with a 5.0 friend and quickl noticed the difference. He hit not only much harder but was able to keep the ball in play doing so. I could sustain a rally but was being pushed deeper each shot. Also his 2nd serve was consistent and easily faster than my first. Huge difference in skill levels.
     
  27. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    Some in-depth investigative reporting has uncovered the following info about Limibeans comments.

    "I hit 120 mph serves at 2.5" Limibeans did this by having a friend drive a car at 120 mph while throwing tennis balls out the window while squealing like Sharapova. Limibeans was ranked 2.5 at this time.

    "I've seen 3.0s hit 80 mph kick serves on their second serve" Limibeans may have played against sandbagging 4.5s at 3.0. We all know this kind of bad sportsmanship goes on in USTA, so this could be true. In reality, real 3.0 players hitting 80 mph kick serves accounted for several deaths and serious injuries last year due to their total lack of control.

    -k-
     
  28. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    It's not. Juniors do it, club level player do it. The jump from 100-120 isnt that big. The jump from 120-140 is where luck and maximizing your physical ability comes into play.

    I know guy who hits 100 mph serves off his heel. This guys a 3.0. He uses like a 125 sq. in. racket with strings at like 40 lbs. You honestly think that an older, balding, Chinese guy who is like 5'3 who can serve 100 with terrible technique wouldnt be able to add 20 mph to the serve?

    Kids fresh out of high school are more than capable of flattening out their serve to be 120. Those who have instruction usually dont serve like that. Why? Because they learned not to. Somewhere a long the line the kid was taught to stay away from a flat/fast serve in exchange for consistency and spin.

    I will give you that. 120 is a stretch. But, 100 mph serves cant just be hard swingers? My flat serve goes a 100 without me even applying any power at all. I can casually make my way up to the ball, turn my wrist over, make contact, and lurch my way into the court for an easy 100. Flat serve only.

    You also dont need "years of instruction". Many naturally talented people understand pronation and kinetic linking w/o knowing the technical terms. Also, even with formal instruction, you still have people who think they understand those terms, but when you watch their service motion, you can clearly see that they dont. When I teach people "leg bend" you'd be surprised at how many of them "pop a squat" thinking their doing it right, but are actually strike the ball standing upright or even moving downwards.

    Like ive been saying... a 2.5 or a 3.0 can have these skills but no other development in their game. Say what you want about how they're not a 2.5 if they can do these things, but I assure you that having those strokes does not DQ them at that level.

    Maybe 3.5 senior mens in your area is like that. Here, if there is a lob, the ball moves maximum twice before something happens to it. 3.5 senior league here does not get involved in long lob exchanges.

    A dynamic rating system is just that: dynamic.

    There are ratings inflation and deflation and they occur on trends or set intervals. A good example is how ratings have gone up at the lower level. Like I said before, 3.0 is the new 2.5, 3.5 is the new 3.0, and 4.0 is the new 3.5

    The skill levels across the board didnt not increase. NTRP occurred and NTRP's went up.

    10 years ago, the 4.0 level had high school champs playing. Now, people like Cindy are 4.0, or possibly being bumped.


    The other reason you can be bumped is that you have earned enough points over time (sometimes over years) which does not indicate you got any better. You can get worse and still move up. You can have a losing record and still move up. You can have a 51% win record over 20 years before you move up.

    Moving up does not mean you got better. It means you earned enough points, whether through the trends of the NTRP scale, or by participating, or by winning.

    Another demonstration of "If I dont know it, it doesnt exist." Also, way to avoid the other thread were you contradicted yourself. If you're gonna fight, at least fight fair.

    It's possible to play no pre-season matches and go to a playoff. I'm not sure if that "loophole" or whatever you want to call it still exists, but it was there 10 years ago.

    "Dissing" the skills of players with higher ratings? What?

    You're still going on about how a lower NTRP cant ever take a higher NTRP. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Stick to your NTRP guns I guess, so whenever you lose you can say "I lost to a sandbagger" and whenever you win you can say "I have better NTRP". It's what you people do.

    When you lose, you blame the system.
    When you win, you praise the system.
     
  29. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Ok I'm over all the other sillyness going on in this thread, but thanks Angle Queen for the research. I found it interesting even if I'm not sure what to do with that information. :D
     
  30. PushyPushster

    PushyPushster Rookie

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    I know you think you and your buddies are the Kings of the Court, but, come on ... surely you realize you're being a bit delusional? Sure, you probably hit the occasional 70mph Ace (forgetting the other 8 serves you slapped into the net) and then you probably think to yourself, "Wow, that serve was book'in! I must have hit that thing 120mph!" But you didn't. Just trust me on this. And your 3.0 friends aren't hitting 80mph kick serves to their opponents backhands. Nor are they pasting every overhead for a winner. They might do that 1 out of 10 times, and that's the shot YOU happen to remember. The other 9 times their opponents got a good chuckle as well as the point.

    Secondly, you seem to think you have a very powerful argument with the, "Everyone who disagrees with me must be playing Seniors tennis" angle. Not so much. Although I don't play senior tennis yet, one of the worst sights I can see is two old farts with knee and ankle braces coming out on the court to play Line 1 in ALTA. They won't be trying to hit any 100mph serves, but they'll be making my life far more miserable than the knuckleheads who do.
     
  31. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I too enjoyed Angle Queen's research.

    It is an interesting point that she refuted. The point being whether players who cakewalk to nationals will be Beasts, capable of demolishing players back home with NTRPs levels higher.

    As I said, I played adult Districts for the first time this year after a successful regular season matches. Nevertheless, I was sure that when I looked across the net at Districts I would see players who could mop the floor with me.

    Nah. Not really. The matches at Districts were competitive, but the players were just solid 3.5s, like me. Also interesting was that my partner and I played Line One in the semis, and we won in straights over a particular pair that liked to take the net. (Yeah, you guessed right -- I lobbed them!)

    Then I saw these same two opponents partnered on Court One at sectionals. They won easily.

    That made me think that 3.5 is 3.5 is 3.5. There will be strong players and the occasional outlier at sectionals, but most people there are at the next level up and not much more. Most people I know who have gone to sectionals or nationals come home and get bumped up just one level -- which suggests the computer didn't think they were that far above their competition. Then the next season, they either struggle at the higher level or fall somewhere in the middle.
     
  32. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    -Firstly, I respect their play for their NTRP level.
    -Secondly, none of my first serves will ever be less than 100 mph.
    -Thirdly, they are my friends, but they are 3.0/3.5 lifers. I have since moved up and moved on many years ago. These guys first started playing with me when I was still in intermediate/high school, well over 10 years ago.

    No, but I bet you, a majority of the people disagreeing with me are either senior league players, or low level NTRP'ers.

    Cindy is just a prime example of senior lady who thinks shes just as good as a 3.5 adult male just because their NTRP's are the same. She cherry picks what she wants from my posts, takes them out of context, then blows them out of proportion.

    I honestly believe that NTRP comparisons should be adjusted for age and gender because more often than not, adults perform better than seniors and men outperform women hands down. It would be VERY rare to see a 3.5 senior lady beat a 3.5 adult male.



    Basically, what im trying to say here, is that occasionally I come upon lots of free time. I come here to post mainly to play with the arm chair NTRP experts, who are often senior players, Play to Learn tennis coach "professionals" or fat, overweight, league pretenders. I love it when I see a 5.0 quality player be rated as a 3.5 on these forums. I love it when I see a 3.5 quality player be rated as a 5.0 because all the grainy video shows are huge forehands and big noises.

    One of the funniest things ive ever seen on this forum are how people adjust their NTRP opinions based on whether or not they agree with the poster. If they agree, NTRP goes higher. If they disagree NTRP goes lower.


    One of these days when im desperate to be right ill post a video of me playing. If I look good, im a sandbagger. If I look bad, im an idiot.

    Strange concept.
     
  33. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I disagree with you and I am neither a low NTRP'er nor a senior.
     
  34. Xisbum

    Xisbum Semi-Pro

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    Lobber tennis, pusher tennis, slicer tennis, dicer tennis, top spinner tennis, back spinner tennis, senior tennis, junior tennis, adult tennis, serve-and-volley tennis, backcourt tennis, aggressive tennis, defensive tennis, smart tennis, crafty tennis, dumb tennis, 3.5 tennis, 4.5 tennis, amateur tennis, weekend tennis, recreational tennis, indoor tennis, outdoor tennis, league tennis, prep tennis, division 1 tennis, division 2 tennis, Atlanta tennis, Memphis tennis, Northern Virginia tennis, Southern California tennis...

    Seems to me there's a common denominator here. Someone help this old liberal arts major figure out what it is. :confused:
     
  35. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I will tell you exactly where I stand compared to a 3.5 man.

    USTA says a 3.5 guy would be comparable to a 4.0 woman. I think that is about right.

    In past years, I struggled against 3.5 guys and lost in 7.0 mixed. I am a stronger player now, as evidenced by my ability to win rallies with these men, return their serves, and win mixed matches.

    I think this means my tennis has advanced to the 4.0 level, which puts me on par with 3.5 guys these days.

    FWIW, my success has come at the adult mixed level as well as the senior mixed level. In many ways, the senior guys are tougher. I have found the younger 3.5 guys to be more wild, and they often have poor volleys and haphazard positioning. And I know I can crowd the net because the young 3.5 guy probably won't lob.
     
  36. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    ,

    This is totally SEXIST! A 3.5 should be a 3.5, and not sex based. As Billie Jean says, men and women should compete equally. Where is Title 9 when you need it?! USTA's non-profit status needs to be suspended until this grievious social inequity is rectified.
     
  37. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Sorry my friend, but you are delusional. I think you just don't actually know how to recognize a 100mph, 120mph serve in the flesh.

    For example, do you realize that most of the top women pro players hit their first serve at around 100mph?

    But yet somehow your older, balding, 5'3" Chinese guy with terrible technique can serve 100? And you can do it without applying any power at all?

    Right.
     
  38. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Well, I certainly think you are delusional about service speed.

    For the record, I am a 4.5 who plays only regular Adult League, mostly singles with a few doubles matches here and there as needed by my team. I have been playing USTA league for 5 years and my rating is determined by the USTA computer.

    Perhaps I am low level by your estimation. I'm certainly not delusional about my skill level and I know there are many many people who are far better than me, but also I know that I am at least the equal of most recreational club players.

    And for the record, since you bring it up, what did you say your USTA rating was?

    People who have been in USTA for a while, including Cindy, understand how NTRP ratings can be applied.

    For example, no-one will say that ratings are equivalent across gender, because they are not. A 3.5 rating for a male is not the same as a 3.5 rating for a female. Where has anyone said that?

    On the other hand, a 3.5 rating for an adult male and a 3.5 rating for a senior male can be roughly equivalent. This is because there is a lot of cross-pollination between the two groups, since senior males can (and mostly do) participate in regular adult leagues also, where they play with and against non-seniors. Older players tend to have different strengths and weaknesses as compared to similarly rated players who are younger, but overall their skill levels are comparable within a rating level.

    If you don't understand all this then you really shouldn't post any more on any NTRP related topics.

    Na, no need to post a video or anything... much easier just to disclose your actual computer-generated NTRP.
     
  39. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    Well, this thread sure turned into a pizzing contest.:rolleyes:
     
  40. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I think you can say ******* here, let's find out.
     
  41. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Well I guess not, but foot faulting is alright, is there no equity?
     
  42. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    1) If men and women competed together on a professional level in team sports, how much of the team would be composed of women? Out of 10 team mates, how many?

    2) Tennis back then was not like tennis now. Raw talent back then could take you from 0 to hero. Now, you are not going far without backing from many different parties. Tacticians, statisticians, physicians, ect. ect.

    3) A 3.5 is a 3.5 according to the USTA and ratings are "equal" across the board. The reality is that it shouldn't be. It is pretty common knowledge that in mixed leagues, or leagues that involve womens doubles as part of the series, that your W/L record is based on your women, not your men.

    And I think that you're delusional in thinking that a 100mph serve is extremely rare. Pulling off "just 100 mph" isnt hard at all, its a serve... not a forehand. These guys are average 3.0's. They swing super hard on their first serve and if it misses... they just tap their second over the net.

    A 100 mph kick serve is rare. A 100 mph serve with no spin isnt rare at all.

    Posting a (good) video of me playing would be quite hilarious and I can almost guarantee you that even if I did, people would say "LOL 3.5/4.0 MAX LOL". As ive said before, posting NTRP's on here doesnt do anything but make you look "needy." I've seen world class videos of tennis players on Youtube that have comments saying "4.5/5.0 max" when the reality is the player is a 6.0+ who is top 20 on the ATP. Talk tennis wouldnt be an exception.

    If I feel like proving you guys wrong (or cared enough) id just make a video.

    Which is exactly why posting NTRP's dosent do anything, or making claims about how "delusional" someone is about 100 mph servers, when 10 year old juniors can serve 80's down the T.
     
  43. SeriousSummer

    SeriousSummer New User

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    Nobody is too strong here. I've played against someone who hit 90+ (subjective measure) first serves--hard enough so that you were lucky to get a racket on them when they went in (which they did about 40% of the time) and then pushed the second serve in with no pace at all. An absolute sitting duck.

    He was harder to play against then you might think. You had to win all of the second serves to break him, and the more than fifty miles per hour difference between the two serves could easily screw up your timing.
     
  44. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I've just realized that you're trolling, nothing less, nothing more. Shame on me for thinking you were engaging in actual discussion.

    You just said the above in this thread, and the below in another thread. A total contradiction of course, but then, it seems you don't actually have anything to add other than trying to provoke argument.

    Anyway, have fun! Bye now.

     
  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There was a big debate in another section about the most humane way to kill lobbers - slice their heads off, or put them alive in boiling water.
     
  46. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    ,

    I'm no expert on 4.5 male serves, as I have only seen them in mixed.

    But I would say that if a fellow has a hard fast first serve that only goes in 40% of the time, followed by a push second serve, then his serving skills are well below the 4.5 male serves I have seen.

    The serves I have seen have a combination of pace, placement, spin and variety. Just hitting a fast flat serve with nothing more is more something you see at 3.5/4.0.
     
  47. SeriousSummer

    SeriousSummer New User

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    Well, yes, of course, 4.5 players don't serve like that, especially in doubles, but that misses the point of the discussion. SweetH2O had said "nobody" had a 4.5 first serve and a 2.5 second serve. And that's got to be correct 99.99% of the time.

    This player had a "4.5" first serve (or better--the first serve was almost unreturnable, he didn't just hit it hard, he was going for the corners and if you had a reliable second serve, even a 4.5 player might hit that serve and accept the low percentage [in singles] because of the high number of aces and winners he got).

    This wasn't a case of a "frying pan" flat serve. I've seen beginners who are good athletes hit those very hard, but usually without any control at all. This player had a good motion and could hit the ball with slice or topspin when he wanted to.

    It was a mental issue. He wanted to hit aces, and did hit a lot of them, but seemed to be unnaturally afraid of double faulting. So this was his way of compromising.

    I'd say his overall game was 3.5 or 4.0, but his first serve was the strongest part of his game and his second serve was the weakest. So to the extent you can categorize a players' skills as appropriate to a certain rating level, he truly had a 4.5 first serve and a 2.5 second serve.

    [BTW: He's since started to really hit his second serve as well, and it's very much raised the level of his game.]

    Sooner or later, it seems like you're bound to see every odd combination of skills show up in a tennis player.
     
  48. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I guess the disconnect is this:

    If a hard, fast serve only goes in 40% of the time because of a player's lack of control, is that truly a 4.5 level serve?

    Me, I would say it is 3.5/4.0 level. I say that because it is so so so common at 3.5 to find guys with good throwing motions who can blast a flat first serve. Then they back it up with a second serve that is just a push.

    Is that a 4.5 first serve with a 2.5 second serve? I wouldn't think so. 3.5 and 3.0 sounds about right to me.
     
  49. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    +1 Double shame on me. And we were even warned by Alexis:

    Still, like you, I thought there was some merit in try to debate his points. Before Hurricane Irene (I'm in Mid-Atlantic ;) ), I'd penned a fairly long, serious reply to his Post #128...wanting mostly to clear up some clear differences of perception regarding NTRP.

    Until I ran across this:

    Emphasis clearly mine.

    Let's contrast that statement, with this one...that he made earlier in the discussion (which spurred my long-winded "research" project):

    Emphasis again, mine.

    I will say this, though, he never says he played in that 3.0 adult league...merely that it was "our" league. Probably would have used the word "my" had it been the team he was on. I suppose, in the interest of giving the biggest benefit of doubt...that he hasn't outright lied. But he's never provided his own NTRP (even without having his name) and only mentioned he knows some other TT posters off-board. While you and I have engaged in some friendly fire of our own, you (nor anyone else) has ever questioned my credibility. I really have learned a lot here on TT, esp about the NTRP system. Too bad, Limibeans... who's apparently been a TT poster for several years longer than I...hasn't taken some of the discussion to heart.

    BTW, all that "research" was in the effort both to prove Limi's point (that minimal regular season can result in Nationals competition...which I think it did)...but it was also to call him out, in a subtle way. As in, like, hey pal...which of these teams was yours? Lesson learned, I suppose. I should have just done like you and asked:

    As a 4.5 yourself....you're anything but...a low-level NTRP. :) I, however, according to Limi....AM.
     
  50. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    I've been "on the gun" before and so have many of my friends. (USTA came to town) Several were former high school state champions at the #1 spot in singles and/or doubles. (granted WV, not Florida, etc., but they were not pushy mcpushters)

    About 10% of us, serving as hard as we were humanly able, were able to crack 100 mph, maybe once out of about 20 tries....

    just sayin'
     

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