Lock wrist on forehand?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Pet, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. Blake0

    Blake0 Hall of Fame

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    So it's basically like what i said before...:-|.

    The pronation and stuff which you do intentionally is more advanced stuff, you wouldn't want to tell beginners to do all that too early. In the beginning it should happen naturally and develop the feel for it.

    The wrist releasing forward however should be naturally depending on your swing. If you try to force that and snap the wrist forward, you'll get inconsistencies with your stroke.

    So at the end of it all what FYB says was correct. Wrist should be layed back at contact, the wrist use should be unintentional until you get to higher levels of play where you've pretty much learned to use everything else and understand how to use the wrist correctly. It's like the icing on the cake.
     
    #51
  2. Cross-court

    Cross-court Rookie

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    Well actually I'm not sure. Unless they were to use a full western, I'd tell them to use it as soon as possible because you make less effort this way and don't wear out your arm that much.

    It doesn't release forward, I told you it's more of a vertical movement.

    I disagree. They say to not use it at all, like if it's a bad thing. They don't say "use it until you get better".
     
    #52
  3. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Who hits heavy spin and uses an extreme eastern grip? Not a lot of people recreationally. Like I said, you don't completely know what you are talking about.

    I use a SouthWest and the supination you described Blake is going to work just fine with it.
     
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  4. crystal_clear

    crystal_clear Professional

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    I tried to "lock" my wrist during practice and I feel sore wrist afterwards. Is this normal?
     
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  5. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    ^ yeah i guess its normal for someone actually trying to "lock" their wrist. Seriously, dont do anything with your wrist, just stay loose and hit the ball
     
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  6. Baloo

    Baloo Rookie

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  7. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Lose wrist... lose arm... lose shoulder. The power is generated from the core and legs.
     
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  8. Blake0

    Blake0 Hall of Fame

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    Uhm not really. Begineers rarely swing anywhere near close to their fastest swing and keep it in..so no need to worry about wearing your arm much at all..

    The pronation causes your racket to turn up, but the wrist does release forward (from layed back to neutral, like on the FYB video someone posted) on lots of pro's forehands. The forward release however should never be done consciously.

    I thought i saw a video before abut FYB saying to not worry about your wrist until you get to higher levels of play, there are more important things to help you get power/consistency.
     
    #58
  9. KenC

    KenC Professional

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    Awhile back I analyzed Fed's FH and it seems to me that he does go from a very laid back wrist and then actually makes the racquet pivot from the wrist as the wrist straightens some. That does seem to add a lot of racquet acceleration.

    That being said I started using the wrist like that early in the year to add extra pop and it resulted in a lot less accuracy, especially on DTL shots. I finally gave up and returned to a comfortably laid back and stationary wrist just for the improvement in accuracy.
     
    #59
  10. Hardserve

    Hardserve Rookie

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    I changed my forehand swing recently and decided to flatten down my swing out more (that allowed me to now lay back the wrist more in the backswing for the pronation. The ball is now flying through the court with a very flat pronation with rolling spin as a result and stays low because of the pace the pronation gives to the ball. So I think the wrist must be relaxed and layed back in order to pronate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2010
    #60
  11. Hardserve

    Hardserve Rookie

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    If you can pronate then you have a weapon.
     
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  12. papa

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    Not so sure we're talking pronation here on the forward part of the stroke.
     
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  13. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    yes, i'm struggling to figure out what some posts are on about if they are implying pronation on the forward swing.. :confused: pronation in the takeback, yeah, pronation after contact, ok.. but from the initiation of the forward swing to contact, i can't see pronation occuring
     
    #63
  14. Pet

    Pet Semi-Pro

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    This post is about no sacrifice consistency using the wrist forward too much...
     
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  15. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Well, it would seem to me that we're talking "supination" here on the forward motion - wouldn't that be a clockwise motion of the forearm turning the palm up?
     
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  16. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    yeah, clockwise, supination, anti-clockwise, pronation

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
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  17. baoshuxiong

    baoshuxiong New User

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    So modern forehand wrist movement is like:
    - relax & layback from backswing till moment of contact
    - about moment of contact, lock wrist
    - after contact, relax wrist & arm

    I guess I've been locking up the wrist way too early & relax it way too late ....
     
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  18. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    You do not want to lock your wrist at contact.
     
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  19. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    https://vimeo.com/63687035

    Look up some Federer high speed videos of the forehand. Probably the above thread has some. Click ">" above.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNia4A9BTM&feature=endscreen&NR=1

    In the forward swing, the wrist and racket lag behind probably stretching some muscles in the forearm and maybe elsewhere. See racket-forearm angle in the composite Nadal picture (look for the white of the grip starting to impact). When the hand comes forward often some internal shoulder rotation is applied to rotate the entire arm and make the racket rise rapidly through the ball impact. This shoulder joint motion may continue after impact perhaps without additional muscle shortening forces. ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
    #69
  20. TimeSpiral

    TimeSpiral Professional

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    If you find yourself using the words pronation and supination, you're doing it wrong :twisted:
     
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  21. baoshuxiong

    baoshuxiong New User

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    To Lock or Not to Lock ...

    I tried it today, it's true - when the body (esp. wrist) is totally relax, the ball goes smoother, deeper, and more topspin.

    The wrist is passive as the swing should take care of itself.

    However, I still needs to try it with a harder hitter.

    On top of that, I would replace "lock" with "hold" since if you want to swing more forward motion, you don't lock the wrist, just needs to hold the position.
    When the forward motion is done, it's the elbow and shoulder turning do the "window wiper" motion. Not the wrist.
     
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  22. Ash_Smith

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    EMG data in biomechanics studies suggests otherwise
     
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  23. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I would not say that is the timing seen most often.

    Not sure of the timing and variation of timing here, stats for variation on what the pro players are doing on their strokes, etc., but the racket can more often be seen rising very rapidly at the same time as moving forward. See Nadal forehand in the earlier post. Hitting through or for more topspin makes a lot of difference as probably the height of the impact does also.

    Term usage - Is the wrist joint moving or is the entire wrist being moved? For considering the motions and for discussions always be clear about joint angular motions or the body parts being moved. The wrist joint has certain angular motions that are defined, flexion, extension, ulnar deviation, etc. . Or, the entire wrist can be moved without the wrist joint changing at all as in pronation or internal shoulder rotation, say, with a straight arm. Usage on the forums is often to use terms for a prominent body part, what is easiest to see, that is moving. Usage is sometimes ambiguous in the discussions - joint angular motion or entire joint moved?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
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  24. Tight Lines

    Tight Lines Professional

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    Ash,

    That is very surprising to me. I am wondering what the EMG data measure. I know that the wrist does go from ulnar deviation to radial deviation and think that is a conscious movement. I don't know about the wrist moving from flexion to extension.

    Do you have a link to the data?

    Harry
     
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  25. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    ^^^^ wut did I just read? Lol. Seriously. Anyone playing tennis should not be thinking about this stuff. I don't understand what it is about adult rec players that obsess about these things. I never heard these things from any coach as a junior and college player. I never heard any player from juniors through a d1 tennis program say these things. Its only on ttw and such that you see this. And guys that can't even hit the ball properly are staying up nights watching 300 fps videos about this.
    Just play/practice and tennis. If you need some cues think simple.

    Relax.
    A bit more aggresive.
    Faster.
    Slower.
    Etc...

    Where did the guy with the totally wanked out serve pronation go? Thats what happens with ttw advice.

    And tight lines this was not necessarily directed at you.
     
    #75
  26. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Not everyone learns the same way. More analytical people learn better when they understand the underlying mechanics.

    There is nothing wrong with having more knowledge.

    You are free to ignore whatever you want.
     
    #76
  27. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Interpreting EMG signals is tricky.
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=441023

    1) EMG signals consciously activate the active actin-myosin motions that supply muscle shortening force.

    Several animations and links on muscle cells.
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7103826&postcount=5

    Animations, actin-myosin cross bridges.
    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic...amics-vs-mechanics-of-the-swing/#entry7353316
    (The animations for actin-myosin look slow.)

    2) No EMG signal is required as I understand when force is supplied by the pre-stretched component of muscles, believed to be the Titin protein molecule. In the Hill Muscle Model and in biomechanics, this force is referred to as "passive'. Passive muscle shortening can supply forces at higher muscle shortening velocities than the active component above.

    Animation pre-stretched Titin also in the muscle cell (sarcomere).
    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic...amics-vs-mechanics-of-the-swing/#entry7353504

    3) In common usage, the term 'passive' is often used to mean it just happens without any well-defined use of the term. If I move my arm rapidly across my chest and stop it suddenly my wrist joint may flop passively in this sense. In this case, there could be absolutely no muscle shortening forces.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
    #77
  28. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    If this was a biomechanics forum I would agree.
    Unfortunately this is a tennis forum. Dedicated to the advancement of tennis technique. There is a long history of coaching methods. Various ideas and ways by established systems to get the player to improve. By proven coaches and tennis federations.
    You can take the advice and ideas from these proven methods that developed Champions or you can worry about unlvar deviation and capillary contraction from the stretch shortening of baked goods.

    If the goal is to be better at tennis I think we can skip the recipes on making blueberry muffins.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    #78
  29. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    History

    Science vs tennis concepts in the 1970s and 1980s.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=471718&highlight=waddel

     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
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  30. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    But the science follows the techical growth of players. Not the other way around. The game changes for whatever reason and players adopt the best methods to win. The science attempts to explaim what is happening but by the time it is done the players on their own have worked out new methods and strategies. Apart from the lab. On a tennis court.
     
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  31. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I vote for

    1) players developing strokes using everything
    2) science/biomechanics, especially for the general principles such as the stretch-shortening cycle, kinetic chain, etc.
    3) coaches, successful gurus, saying what they believe
    4) high speed video, 3D motion capture
    5) safety first
    6) a little more care in communicating, use of terms, minimizing tennis discussions & instructions that are misleading.........
    7) accurate descriptions of specific stroke techniques that are now being used by high level tennis players. (Regarding the OP, for decades the best advice that I recall was to 'keep a firm wrist' on tennis strokes.!!)

    Acknowledge
    1) A tennis stroke is too rapid to be accompanied by much conscious thought during the stroke. It must be trained and performed with a pretty clear head. Just do it is very important. But do what....?
    2) Science in the past has been pretty reactive to what players and coaches have developed. Not sure how much science is utilized right now. But I think that the application of science in tennis has been increasing and will continue to do so in the future.
    3) The next advances in stroke techniques will probably come from a player/coach but biomechanics will probably have made a contribution, perhaps from behind the scenes.

    Could I interest you in a high speed video camera?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    #81
  32. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I would love a high speed camera. I use a android app with my smart phone to help coach my son. Coaches eye. It allows slow motion etc.... It actually was very useful for me to isolate his serve mechanics and we achieved a great serve within a year at age 12. I'm the guy that will sit for hours watching video of my kid to further his sport. Football and tennis,
    But I never tell him the mechanical errors I'm seeing. I try to guide him via visual cues and feel wise towards the result I want. My main focus has been for him to feel his body position and swing through the different learning phases. Whatever the technique I'm trying to get him to learn. Footwork the same.

    I discovered the more technical I got the worse his learning. The less I said and allowed him to learn a new skill via guided learning the faster he progressed. Sometimes the words used that helped him has no semblance to what is actually happening, the wrist snap for one. He had a bad habit of being too rigid on his fh follow through. I told him to let the wrist snap a bit right as he made contact. The immediate result was a heavier ball. Did he actually snap it? No. But it allowed the racket head to whip through contact a lot faster because he was inclined to be too rigid. The snap cue loosened him up. The serve was the opposite. He was too loose in his wrists and was losing control of the racket a bit going into trophy. I told him to hold the handle a bit tighter. This allowed to windup to be more fluid. And more energy was going into the ball.



     
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  33. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    There is practically no change in Federer's wrist position just before, during and after contact. Maybe if you split hairs there may be a degree or 2 but even the precise Swiss master is not good enough to control these minute adjustments at contact. He uses a very loose grip and lets it flow from core rotation until he releases into WW follow thru.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ekoCoVzdO...Adw/-eF5Grns204/s1600/RF+IZ+Pronation+004.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GZl3LhCOC...Ad4/QZpPUOFMrDE/s1600/RF+IZ+Pronation+005.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ivNmhr1OJ...AeI/zHZE9gI5QDM/s1600/RF+IZ+Pronation+007.jpg

    The forearm pronates into WW follow thru several inches after the ball is gone normally, and sometimes if late the pronation may start during contact but I don't see any wrist flex during the contact area.

    Keep the wrist relaxed, lay it back coming into contact and let the stroke flow. Don't squeeze the wrist, don't flex it, don't snap it, just keep the wrist relaxed and execute your stroke.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    #83
  34. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    I tried about 2 months hitting with a locked, about 90 degrees wrist on my fh. It is quite good at generating power and hitting at those no pace balls is much easier. HOWEVER, my wrist starts to hurt. It is hurting because as my wrist is locked, there is no room for the wrist to move backward at impact. So my wrist absorbs the shock and got a little hyper extended along the way. Not good.

    If you move your wrist a little forward as you swing but still laid back at contact, it is much more comfortable, and you get extra power. You do not snap your wrist like doing an overhead.

    If you do not lay back the wrist you cannot generate power or spin. You will also have to do a neutral stance and swing in the classic way.
     
    #84
  35. watungga

    watungga Semi-Pro

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    Don't think about your wrist during takeback. Loosen the grip and thing about how to put the racquet head back farthest from your body.

    When swinging forward, pull the racquet like pulling a rope and deliver the whole racquet parallel to the baseline to hit the impact zone. Again, relaxed grip.
     
    #85
  36. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Video interpretation - "There is practically no change in Federer's wrist position just before, during and after contact...."

    I am not generally very clear on what the wrist is doing around impact or of the variations between players or by a single player for their forehands. It would take a lot of work to get stats.

    For the Tennisspeed examples that you have shown showing the closed angle of the racket face from the side, I believe that the 2D limitations of single camera video might be missing some of the important wrist motions. Not sure.

    Here are some videos selected to show wrist motions. I'm not sure how these would look viewed from the side but the racket might be closed as in your examples while the wrist can be seen in these videos to be moving. Angles to look for are the forearm-racket angle, the wrist joint angles and, more difficult to see, any pronation and internal shoulder rotation for any windshield wiper like motions.

    Del Porto running forehand, with Toly analysis, selected for a lot of wrist motion. He might be reaching and catching up....? If presented as the Tennisspeed frames showing how closed the racket face is, how would the edge of the racket appear?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC_bJtpIPn0&feature=youtu.be

    Frank Salazar FYB video with Toly analysis from above. Some wrist motions show better from this rare camera view from above the player. How would the racket edge appear viewed from the side?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG4I3Ok1n3Q

    Long video on the subject. Unfortunately, there is too much motion blur during the important acceleration toward the ball later in the video. He even uses the amount of motion blur to gauge racket speed so this is not the best video, but the analyses are on subject.
    Tennisoxygen analysis of forehands
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJJS3d2N1c
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #86
  37. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    This is a good advice, except that I'm not sure about the "deliver the whole racquet parallel to the baseline" part?
     
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  38. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Chas, the Del Po video is not a good model as it is a running forehand under duress. Del Po is making a desaparate attempt to flick the ball back over the net. His arm is not in sync with core rotation as he is arming the ball because he is in such poor position. This is not a meat and potatoes forehand and has not usage as a model in my view.

    If you stop the Salazar video just prior to and just after contact, you can see the wrist position has hardly changed and this is a basic forehand with the arm in sync with the core rotation. It supports that the player is not mucking around with the wrist.

    The other tennis oxygen video also says the wrist position from the laid back pull to contact position does not change through contact. He goes on to say the wrist position changes in the follow through and it differs from each of his model based on the direction they were hitting. Again, the supports what I am saying.

    My view is when you are hitting the basic forehand and really want to hit it aggresively, you should let the core supply the power. The forearm and wrist are just relaxed and remain relatively out of the picture other than to guide the direction of the ball.
     
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  39. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I am arguing that I don't know what the wrist is doing. Also, to take a very close look at the videos of the fastest part of the forehand.

    I don't know how the wrist moves just before to just after ball contact on most forehand drives. I have seen the racket face climbing at high angle and cannot tell if it swing path or some arm rotation (pronation & internal shoulder rotation) or wrist joint motion that contribute and how much each might contribute to the racket head speed. Elliott said that some forehands have ISR and others do not. The pronation & ISR could occur just before contact and play a larger part in the upward velocity of the racket face or it could occur just after impact and have no influence.

    These issues could be examined in very high speed videos (1000 fps or more) that show the wrist in detail. This Toly thread has the kind of detail I believe is needed to understand the racket face motion at impact. Is the upward racket face path all swing path and no pronation and ISR?
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7929623&postcount=70
    IRS after impact would mean for the 'Windshield Wiper Forehand' that the WW part is all in the follow through. ?

    If I look at some of these videos it looks like a close call as to when the upward motion occurs relative to impact. Also, the arm's rotational velocity achieved before impact in the important thing and not so much the larger arm rotation easily seem in the follow through.

    Federer forehand.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNia4A9BTM&feature=endscreen&NR=1

    Tennisplayer.net analysis.
    Roger Federer and the Evolution of the Modern Forehand
    http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/...ution_modern_forehand_part1.html?format=print

    Roger Federer Forehand Analysis Part 2, Florian Meier
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pNeRkJdoWU

    It does look as if the forearm-racket might stay at a slowly changing angle through impact on many high level forehands. I should correct my earlier reply.

    Good issue to research and what to do with the wrist around impact is important. Also, how much variety is there in high level forehands?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #89
  40. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    ^^^There is plenty of variety in biomechanics, much less variety in swing path. A lot of the biomechanics is grip and balance dependent, so it's very hard to tell exactly which joints are doing what. This is why coaches (at least while teaching players, not while learning for themselves) sometimes ignore the biomechanics and focus on the swing path, stepping in to correct biomechanics when something is egregiously wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    #90
  41. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    That may be the most ignorant thing I have read on this forum (and there are a LOT of ignorant things said around here).

    Just because things are done certain way, no new things should be discussed? Not on an INTERNET FORUM??

    Are you using a dial-up modem on AOL to post this?
     
    #91
  42. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    The wrist release is involved in almost every athletic activity involved in throwing or hitting. To suggest that tennis is somehow immune to this is to ignore reality.
     
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  43. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    So your advocating discussions of blueberry muffin recipes to make yourself a better tennis player then. Which is basically what your saying.
    Lamo. Just go play some tennis. Better yet. Go play and film it for the rest of us. There are hundreds of videos of people trained the traditional way on YouTube playing awesome tennis. Show me one player trained from your overly complex biomechanics study that can actually play.

    There is a video of the djoker saying to serve great you need to snap the wrist. End of story. Not you need ulvar deviation and 15 degrees of wrist flexion with supported reflection of the band of interior stretches of quad muscles.

    Get real.

    I have 150/65, fios. Lamo.
     
    #93
  44. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    may coach when I learned tennis told me to have a relaxed wrist during the takeback and most of the swing and lock it just for contact for a split second.

    not sure if that is really possible or making sense but Í think it is a good cue because it avoids cramping the hand but also prevents "wrist flicking". keep in mind that was more than a decade ago when using wrist was still a big no-no in tennis (exept serve). now it seems to be more accepted but I think being really wristy and flop the wrist all over the place is still bad,
     
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  45. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    The general consensus nowadays is that the wrist plays a somewhat active role in the forehand, but more to control the swing than to power it. You use the whole body and the kinetic chain to generate all the power, and you employ the right amount of flexion and radial deviation through the hitting zone to maintain a consistent face of the racket. So your wrist is loose and consciously moved to a certain extent, but you do not snap your wrist any more than you snap any other part of your body. Does this make sense?
     
    #95
  46. watungga

    watungga Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Messages:
    594

    That is to put your focus away from thinking about the wrist.

    When the racquet hits the ball, freeze it. You'll see the racquet is in front of you. You'll see the line of racquet is parallel to the baseline (for DTL) and a bit inclined relative to baseline for crosscourt returns. That frozen part is where you should deliver the racquet from point a (the takeback) and onto point b (the freeze part).

    Deliver - was my chosen word for swinging from back to front.
     
    #96
  47. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    4,388
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Basic, Low Cost, High Speed Video Camera for Tennis Stroke Analysis

    Now on sale for under $97 this high speed video camera has a frame rate of 240 fps and a fast shutter speed = small motion blur when used in direct sunlight with the widest angle zoom setting.

    http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/powershot-elph-110-hs-red-refurbished

    details in
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=484212&highlight=black+friday+camera
     
    #97

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