Low Friction Poly X's For Gut Mains : Softer Alternative to MSV Co-Focus?

Discussion in 'Strings' started by ChicagoJack, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    I've been playing with Co-Focus off and on since last summer, and yeah it's hard to beat. I've recently found something that fits my specific needs a little better. I'm absolutely sure Polyfiber HiTec 18 is more comfortable than Co-Focus 1.18. I'm saying this with certainty because I have been trading off with both set ups, at identical initial tensions (58/53) in identical frames, from the same package of gut mains. A bit more tension loss, but is still right in line with your average poly. That's a good trade off for me. I've got more to try, but it's the one to beat so far.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
    #51
  2. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    According the the play test ranking on Stringforum for smooth polys (those best suited for crosses) these are the highest ranked Poly Strings for Crosses in Natural Gut Hybrids:

    MSV Co-Focus
    Yonex Poly Tour Pro 125
    Tecnifibre Black Code
    Kirschbaum Pro Line No. II
    Signum Pro Poly Plasma
    Prince Beast XP
    WeissCANNON Silverstring
    WeissCANNON Scorpion
    Signum Pro Hyperion
     
    #52
  3. GlenK

    GlenK Professional

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    You should try it as a cross with natural gut. I have not experienced any of what you mention but I have not tried it full bed..
    It is awesome in the set up I'm using..
     
    #53
  4. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

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    reads like Mitt at it again...
     
    #54
  5. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Jack, I was using cofocus as a cross as well. I had some laying around so i tried it as a main in an OGSM hybrid. I have to say I was rather impressed coming from the springy Cyclone/Nvy setup I had before. the control level was much higher, but the comfort level took a surprising hit.

    6 hours in the cofocus was completely dead (18x20 pattern)

    What I learned from this was basically to try some of these out as a main first to see how long they last. It gives you a better idea since it is tougher to tell in a cross with gut.

    I think 4g is the best cross you could get (if you can afford it). It lasts WAY longer (10-14 hours of play which is about 2 weeks for me). If you can't afford it, I would go with Black Magic. The feel of BM with gut is simply awesome.

    It sounds like you may have already found a cross that works, so maybe just disregard everything I just said..lol.
     
    #55
  6. mctennis

    mctennis Hall of Fame

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    Jack,
    One more variance in your "Different saddles for different butts" statement. Don't forget " and different horses"
    The different racquets would be the " different horses" part. I find some, not all mind you, strings play/feel different in different racquets. Not a biggie to add but I like your statement there.
    Also , no to just Jack here but to everyone, I don't understand buying strings that only last 4 to 6 hours of play. Even at restringing your own racquet, after a while I would think you would get tired of doing that so quickly with any string. If you have to restring your racquet that often with a string I would really try to find a different string that plays close to that string but lasts a lot longer. Of course, that's just me.
     
    #56
  7. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Do you play with poly? A lot of polys only last that long.
     
    #57
  8. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Hi Big Kahuna,

    Super cool, thanks. I've sorted and ranked all of those suggestions by stiffness, and worked them into the big list on the opening post. The Yonex string looks promising. I'm thinking that it must be new? Either that, or it somehow slipped past my search criteria.

    Hi Power Player,

    Yeah man, I remember you used co focus as well, from our days hanging in the black drive club. There is a a whole lotta love for 4G going around. The tension matainenance numbers are amazing, no argument there. But I just double checked and it's in the 270's for stiffness. (see my opening page post) The softest polys are 160's and the stiffest in the 330's. I know the lab data can be deceiving, but with 300+ polys on the market, I need some way to whittle that down to something more manageable shopping list. It's hard to ignore stiffness digits like that when comfort is my top concern. In addition, 4G was in all of the Wilson racquets at the big demo event, and I came home super sore after just two hours of hitting. I'm not going anywhere near that string. Regarding Black Magic, I'm going to give that a try at some point. Thanks again.

    Hi Bad_Call,

    Eew, not a Mitt fan here. Will work to adjust any trace of his patter in my posts lol.

    My Thoughts on "Dead" String

    Despite all the attention this phenomena gets around here, there is no agreement whatsoever among players regarding what "dead" string actually is. I've observed this means different things to different people. Some will report strings are "dead" when control becomes problematic. Some will say it's when power diminishes due to decreased elasticity. Conversely, some will say that it's when the stringbed loses so much tension that it becomes "a rocket launcher". Still others will say it's dead when the arm starts to feel it. It appears to be very personal concept. Meanwhile, back in the lab, the folks who study tennis physics for a living have no freaking idea why we say any of these things.

    Personally, (as a doubles specialist hitting the ball about 1/2 as many times as you singles guys) I will snap any full multi nylon in 10 hours or less. I will get 20-30 hours of doubles out of a full bed of 16 gauge gut before snapping the crosses. I don't really play full poly, except for a brief stint with Black Widow 18 and BHBR 17. I get at least 30 hours of good play out of 17g Gut mains with Co-focus 17L.

    -Jack
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
    #58
  9. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    That make sense. I personally would not use a full bed of 4g either. In a hybrid it is stiff, but the comfort level is a lot higher than say, cofocus. I know that sounds crazy but it really is true for me.

    It sounds like the challenge will be softness versus durability. And that boils down to how often you want to restring your gut mains. 4g is one of the few polys that lasts the length of a hybrid setup for me (roughly 2 weeks). It is also not as soft as other strings that last half as long.

    Anyway, let us know if you try black magic crosses. I think you may be really happy if it lasts long enough for you.
     
    #59
  10. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    PLEASE let me know how the Yonex plays. I have purchased some, however, the hybrid set-up I have usually lasts 30-40 hours and I have a ways to go before I restring. That is one of the things people like about the MSV Co-Focus 18g - it starts out stiff, then gets a little mushy for an hour or two, and then plays great for hours and hours (even after it is dead, it STILL feels pretty good in a gut/poly hybrid).

    I think one of the reasons MSV has such a nation of followers is that is is such a superb VALUE (price to performance) which (when you buy the MSV Co-Focus by the reel and use Pacific Classic Gut) comes to $36. for two racquets.

    In the end, I felt I could rationalize that cost when I was having the GUT / POLY hybrid playing well AFTER over 30 hours of play and I was cutting out my POLY / MULTI hybrid after it went dead after 16 hours (max). In the long run, GUT / POLY plays better and is CHEAPER as it holds the tension and plays LONGER. Maybe the Yonex can be a SOFTER version of the MSV.

    The reviews have been outstanding.
     
    #60
  11. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    My latest trial... had a set of Luxilon M2 Pro 1.25 that I've never gotten around to using. Had a feeling this could be a great cross string to gut.

    Initial impressions are very good: played 2 matches, and the string definitely is nowhere near the stiffness levels of usual Lux strings. Also, as with most Luxilon offerings, the surface is extremely slippery (they use teflon in their strings, right?), but the real kicker is that the comfort is also great.

    As I've tried a number of poly crosses to Gut mains (From stiff ALU to buttery soft WC MB), the M2 Pro crosses have a great blend of that "luxilon control", without the usual harshness/lack of feel that I had found with ALU crosses. Not quite as soft or powerful as the MBite, but definitely a nice feeling stringbed that didn't require any break-in or display any noticeable performance drop over the course of two matches. I'll update any changes as they come.
     
    #61
  12. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Hi Jt_2eighty -

    Sounds awesome. Great review, thanks for the update!

    Jack
     
    #62
  13. corners

    corners Legend

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    Hey there, did that polymaster stringjob ever snap? Care to write up that comparison of gut/polymaster and gut/silverstring?
     
    #63
  14. polytheist

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    I would love to hear feedback on a gut/polymaster setup. Polymaster is expensive, but i'm intrigued by the weave angle argument.
     
    #64
  15. corners

    corners Legend

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    Yeah, gut/polymaster II is first on my list of strings to try when the weather warms.
     
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  16. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    I would highly recommend that anyone interested in hybrid string jobs and/or mixing co-poly with gut mains read the article titled "Strings and Spin: Applying What We Know About Copoly" by Joshua Speckman

    I have just posted it on another TW discussion thread at: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=394623&page=26

    It is one of the best reads on the subject I have seen.
     
    #66
  17. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    The Polyfiber is VERY soft poly. Given that it appears you are using a FULL poly hybrid, that makes sense. Using the MSV C0F also makes a bit more sense if you are using GUT mains - which was the theme of this thread, "Low Friction Poly Xs for Gut Mains". With gut, you can get a poly that is TOO soft to blend effectively with the gut IMO.
     
    #67
  18. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    Don't forget they LTec is $25. a set and MSV CoF is $8. - that is a huge cost to performance difference. Buy the MSV in a reel and it come out to about $5. a full set ($2.50 for a half set)!!
     
    #68
  19. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    VS/M2Pro hybrid was my go-to setup for over a year before I switched to another.

    This is a very comfortable setup, but M2 Pro had to be strung up as high as regular synthetic gut in order to find the acceptable level of control. (This would be great for you, since you like to keep the tension bet mains and crosses very close)

    Also, the tension drop on the M2 Pro was so enormous that I always had to cut it out after 2 hitting sessions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
    #69
  20. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Hi Big Kahuna -

    Oh yeah sorry about that. I can see now that I wasn't being very clear. I'm not using a full poly hybrid, and probably never will, my arm is just not having that. My review commentary on the Polyfibre string was comparing two Gut/Poly setups. Two identical racquets, both strung from the same package of gut in the mains, at identical tensions. I had Co-Focus in the crosses of one racquet, and Polyfiber Hitec 18 in the other. That's how I determined with absolute certainty that PolyFibre is more comfortable. This thread has always been, exactly what the title says it is about. The topic and quest not wavered since day one. I'm using Gut/ Co-focus as reference point, just because that's a combination that I'm pretty familiar with, one which I like very much, but just wish were a bit more comfortable. I'm about 90% recovered from a nagging case of TE, and I've become extremely sensitive to string stiffness. My current set up is listed in my signature.

    Big thanks for posting the Speckman article! Very cool. I've been posting similar information (including Speckman's "New Physics" article) in the Wilson 99s Racquet thread for weeks now. That thread has become a sort of mecca for all things spin related, and it's become clear to me just how many peeps are unaware of the recent discoveries surrounding low string to string friction.

    - Jack
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
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  21. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    I have just placed an order for four string test demos. I will be testing all 4 together, at the same time. All will be going into 4 identical racquets with the same gut mains at equal tensions. I will keep my Gut/Polyfibre Hitec 18 in a 5th racquet, as that's the one to beat for comfort and playability (at least in my book) TW only had Gosen PolyMaster I, which is just a slightly larger diameter of PolyMaster II. I didn't want to pay shipping associated with obtaining the II from another source.

    Will update asap. :)

    [​IMG]

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
    #71
  22. corners

    corners Legend

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    Rad! Looking forward to your playtest reports Jack!
     
    #72
  23. polytheist

    polytheist Rookie

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    Yeah, Cofocus has almost everything, it just needs to be a tad softer and consistent. So we press on for greener pastures.
     
    #73
  24. polytheist

    polytheist Rookie

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    any updates?
     
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  25. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    I am still playing with the MSV Co-Focus. It is still the gold standard - especially at the Price to Performance Ratio.
     
    #75
  26. wmilas

    wmilas Rookie

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    In my experience the sidewinder is superior to the co-focus. A tad softer, and better tension over 8-10 hours (when I break the gut mains). Same spin.
     
    #76
  27. polytheist

    polytheist Rookie

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    Anyone else try Sidewinder? Does the twisted nature eat the gut?
     
    #77
  28. GlenK

    GlenK Professional

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    Still using MSV CoFocus 1.18 as a cross for WNG. It's an amazing cross and by far the best I've tried...
     
    #78
  29. PKfan1

    PKfan1 Semi-Pro

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    I put big hitter silver 17 as a cross for Tonic and I am loving it strung 58/56 in pslgt. It considerably out performs alu power for me and is cheep cheep!
     
    #79
  30. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Just a quick update. I've gotten a feel for some of my demos and thought I'd share. I'll rate each in order from most favored to least favorite in each category. Pretty much any Gut/Poly plays pretty good, so it's like trying to choose your favorite son, a tough task for sure. In all cases my mains are Babolat Tonic 15L. Tension is 54/50, in 4 identical Donnay P1's.

    Gut/PolyFire HiTec 18: This super comfy18 was a lifesaver when I was battling my TE, but now that I'm doing better, and have dropped my tension from 58/54 to 54/50, I'm able to hit comfortably with a bit stiffer crosses. I've also noticed that it bags out after the tension drops and it's a bit slow on the snap back, or does not snap back at all. It's for sure a bit tackier to the touch. I think for all of those reasons, control suffers when it ages. Kind of like an expensive Rip Control. Feels great at first, but response gets kind of inconsistent with age. Every once in a while you get a ball that lands long with slightly less spin that feels like a winner when you hit it.

    Gut/MB, Gut/Yonex : I'm currently having a tough time choosing between the Yonex and Mosquito Bite, I like them both, with the Yonex maybe a hair more consistent response, but with Mosquito bite a bit more comfy, and slight more spinny. I get a nice catch and release feel with MB, and a bit cleaner feel with the Yonex. However, I'll confess that a few times I've grabbed the wrong racquet after a sit down change over and didn't notice for a few points. Both really similar imo, and both really good crosses. MB was highly recco'd by several forum members who's opinions I trust. The new Yonex string has been getting stellar reviews over at the stringforum. I expected to be pleased and neither string disappointed.

    Gut/Co-Focus: Was my go to fave for about 8-10 months last year, and have been trying other options the last 2-3 months. In my mind, it's the gold standard that I compare everything else to. Now that I'm trying it again side by side with other strings at the same time, what seems really obvious to me is that with COF, the rebound angle seems noticeably higher than all the other set ups. Logic dictates that my response should be to close the racquet face slightly. Closing the racquet face would create more spin. (Perhaps that scenario is why this string is so often praised for it's spin potential). But I dunno, right now I am so grooved to a different string, with a different rebound angle, that the COF just seems kind of "wild" feeling to me now. When the balls are popping off high and long, that's when I get nervous about hitting out, and that's when my stroke slows down, not a good series of adjustments. I'm sure that with some time I could find my co-focus groove again, but I'm liking the both the Yonex and the MB just a tad better, and I see the the balls diving down into the court pretty hard in either case.

    I'll be demoing Gosen Sidewinder and Gosen PolyMaster next.

    Spin:
    1. WC Mosquito Bite 18
    2. MSV Co - Focus 17L
    3. Yonex Poly Pro Tour 16
    4. Polyfiber Poly Hitec 18

    Comfort:
    1. Polyfiber Hitec
    2. Mosquito Bite
    3. Yonex
    4. Co-Focus

    Control:
    1. Yonex, or Mosquito Bite (Tough Call)
    2. Co-Focus
    3. Poly Fibre HiTec

    -Jack
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
    #80
  31. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    ChicagoJack, would you say Mosquito Bite is worth the extra $ over Co. Focus? I'm nearing the end of my Co. Focus reel and am trying to decide if I want to get something new, or just order another reel.

    At $77, Co. Focus really is a great deal, especially since I have no complaints about it. But as usual, I can't help think I can get a little more power/control/spin/whatever from a different cross. Mosquito Bite is $99 per reel, so it's still manageable.

    The Yonex may be a great string, but at $145 a reel, I can't imagine its twice as good as Co. Focus.
     
    #81
  32. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Hi Mc Lovin -

    The price on COF is tough to beat. But for me at least, the little extra bump in $$ to mosquito bite has been well worth it. I currently have four matched frames strung up with Gut/Poly at identical tensions and I'm alternating back and forth to get a feel for the difs of each. That's an expensive way to demo, but what that provides me with though, is clarity and certainty.

    I'm now absolutely certain that one big difference btwn COF and MB is rebound angle and depth control. COF creates a little bit more height over the net given the same stroke. If you can adjust to that high arc and close the racquet face, that will create some nice spin for sure. But my P1 has got some pop to it, and I can generate some decent pace. When I miss, I generally miss long, not into the net. That little extra height does not do me any favors under match pressure with a fresh can of balls. MB seems to give me the same spin if not more, and I dont have to adjust my stroke or racquet face to get that nice spin.

    I cannot really explain why, but I go through the same routine before every match, and come up with the same conclusion every time. I dont drill, I dont practice much anymore, I've just been playing matches mostly. So I have just the 15 minute warm up period to demo strings. Every time, I have trouble dialing in with COF, but find a groove with MB right away. It's a pretty down and dirty demo process, but fwiw, the MB set up is the racquet I choose to play with every time. The Yonex hybrid is a close second, but as you mention, the pricing gap is much wider there.

    Maybe it's just me, but now that I am comparing more set ups side by side, COF just seems a bit wild and unpredictable by comparison. I just have more confidence with MB, about where the ball is going. When that happens, I start to swing more freely and that puts me into the golden zone. I had the same feeling of increased depth control with WC Silver String as a cross, but that was too stiff for me. MB is much more comfy for sure.

    -Jack
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    #82
  33. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    OK, I think I'll give MB a test drive. And I fully understand 'clarity and certainty'. Ultimately, that is what I want: Take all variables out so if I miss, I know the issue is me, not the equipment.

    It is funny you mention angle & depth, because I've been demoing some new frames recently (see http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=455998), and one thing I noticed when I went back to my X Force Pro was, almost immediately, my shots cleared the net by 2-3 more feet and were easily 5-6 feet deeper.

    Now, I realize there are multiple variables (full poly vs. gut/poly, different frames), but I was attributing the difference to the frame, and maybe, just maybe, the string had something to do with it also.

    Also, I notice you use the Pro One 16x19. For some reason I just didn't get on w/ that frame. I had hoped to as the specs reminded me of my Pure Control Swirlys, but I couldn't gel with it.
     
    #83
  34. corners

    corners Legend

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    Unless the various sticks were very different in terms of swingweight (+/- 20 units), or the string patterns were very different, the depth and net clearance you observed was almost certainly a result of strings, not frames.

    You take an X Force with gut/poly and compare it to a Vcore 97 with a syngut or multi and you're going to get a higher launch angle with the X Force, no doubt.
     
    #84
  35. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Hi corners -

    Absolutely agree. The differences in rebound angles / net clearance that string makes is striking, and most noticeable with identical, finely tuned rackets. With a full bed of gut in my P1's I really have to fight to keep from clipping the top of the net, ball pops off much lower. With Gut/Poly or full poly, ball is launching much higher. If I dont adjust to that higher flight path ball is going out for sure.

    We "string experts" know that gut is inherently more powerful than poly. Yet we easily dismiss all the novices who post that poly is more powerful than multis as nonsensical. What they are seeing is the height over the net and depth, it make perfect sense they would arrive at this conclusion. Our "knowledge" clouds our vision at times.

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    #85
  36. corners

    corners Legend

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    I agree completely. BTW Jack, have you considered adding Ashaway Monogut ZX Pro into the mix? Some very interesting reports coming in now in the thread dedicated to this string. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it would make an ideal cross string for gut mains if a person were looking for more comfort and pop than gut/poly. The Pro version is 17g and available in red.

    I'm also thinking it would be interesting to try a modified "Lendl setup" with gut mains, red MB crosses in the middle of the pattern and red ZX Pro for the top 3 and bottom 4 crosses. This would allow, in theory, a player to string tighter than usual for an overall lower launch angle, but still get a very lively, spin-friendly, forgiving and comfortable stringbed.

    On the virtues of a similar setup, see the OP in this thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=389303

    Trav suggests simply omitting the outermost mains and uppermost and lowermost crosses, but using ZX pro for the upper 3 and lower 4 crosses instead of poly might be even more effective (although a much bigger pain in the stringer's behind).
     
    #86
  37. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Great points and mirrors my experience with the two strings as crosses to gut.

    Another great feature of MB in my experience is consistent response over time. I find it holds tension better than the rest of the polys I've tried, which seems to be a theme among the WC brand. In this sense, the few extra bucks for MB pays for itself in tension maintenance.
     
    #87
  38. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Oh most definitely. Out of the dozen or so multis that cross over into poly territory for low friction, Monogut is the most intriguing to me. I will likely demo that after Sidewinder and Gosen Power Master.

    Whoa, there is some good stuff in that link, thanks for the head's up. I totally get it! I think your suggested set up sounds awesome. My first, gut level reaction, to the whole stiff center, soft outer thing... is that Jay Bosworth must be reading trav's posts! (LOL) I assume that's who's been stringing Lendl's FrankenRacquets lately. The connection/thought process seems uncannily similar.

    -Jack
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    #88
  39. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Hi JT -

    Oh hey cool, it was on your recommendation, as well as PV Audio, and Up & Comer, that I thought to try Mosquito Bite 18. I expected to be impressed given the fan base and it didn't disapoint.

    Jack
     
    #89
  40. corners

    corners Legend

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    Cool. I think you and are are converging on the same strings, although you're way ahead of me and I'll get to take advantage of your experience before I have to start spending money. Thanks!

    And speaking of convergence....

    Yeah, I pointed out the Lendl setup to Trav and he quipped, "convergent evolution." But Jay could very well be reading here, and posting for all we know.
     
    #90
  41. corners

    corners Legend

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    Hey JT, I was reading some of your older posts the other day and wanted to ask you a question that isn't too off-topic here. I know that you were using ToughGut as a cross at one point. I noticed that Prime has the lowest interstring friction coefficient of any natural gut, in the poly range, and wondered if you ever tried Prime as a cross with another gut in the mains. I'm thinking that if Prime is that slippery it might be possible to get the sliding and snapback we use poly crosses for, but without having to use a poly. I know it's a stretch, as Prime is slippery because of some coating that probably wears off, but thought I'd ask anyway. If we could just get a proper slippery gut this whole thread wouldn't be necessary :???:

    On the other hand, it's likely that a gut cross is too flexible, even if slippery, for mains to slide nicely on. The TW Professor mused in one his papers that the stiffness of poly crosses probably helps with string movement because the poly cross acts kind of like a rail for the main to slide along, whereas a slippery and flexible string will deform locally and the main string will be faced with having to continually push "up a hill" as it slides along it.
     
    #91
  42. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I'm going to throw a monkey into the scientific wrench this morning. After last night, I've got 4 sets of singles on Wilson Gut 16 mains with Ytex Pro Tour 16L poly crosses at 50/45 in the Prince Exo Tour 16 x 18. I don't see any extra spin with this setup. The strings don't move a whole lot which is nice. I see the videos of the science of snapback and it makes sense but I just don't understand why I'm not seeing it on my shots.
     
    #92
  43. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Maybe because you used Ytex instead of Yonex?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
    #93
  44. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    I would wager the Prime cross would suffer the same fate of other guts, while it may be slippery when fresh, as soon as the strings begin to fray and notch, that coating does wear off, and you no longer get the sliding string on string movement we get from gut/poly. Having used Prime as a full bed, it does notch upon itself like other full gut or full syn gut setups. Although I then popped in some Babolat string savers and that solved the movement & notching issues. It also does great as a main to poly crosses; a setup I'm currently using actually.

    But, one thing often overlooked are the string savers: they incorporate teflon and having used them a few times in different full gut setups, while they may stiffen the feel a little, the overall effect is still easier on the arm than gut/poly. If they add an effective feeling of a couple pounds overall if you were to put, say, a 6 x 6 or 8 x 8 square in your sweetspot, then adjust initial tension accordingly. When used in a full square like that, I have noticed the mains can slide back into place almost like they do in gut/poly. However, for max spin I still find poly crosses to be more effective. But if that's not your main requirement, string savers can be a suitable option.

    I'm thinking one thing people who don't want poly crosses could do is string full gut a few pounds lower than their normal, to account for adding string savers, then the stringbed will have your snap-back, and added durability we get with gut main/poly cross. However, as you noted, the stiffness of the poly crosses do seem to aid in the sliding and snap back, as a soft cross would make for less snap back since the forces put on the mains by the crosses would be less due to the more elastic crosses. The TW prof is definitely on to something on that note.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
    #94
  45. corners

    corners Legend

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    Thanks a lot for your detailed reply JT. My experience with a pattern of stringsavers was not as positive as yours, although I did not drop tension to compensate as you'd described. My feeling is that the Bab stringsavers, although made of teflon resin and quite slippery, restrict string movement by forcing the mains to move too linearly. In an unconstrained stringbed the crosses will deflect away from the ball, or spread. This doesn't really affect the sliding of the mains much, however. But by essentially connecting the mains to the crosses with a stringsaver, the mains are forced to track along the cross, which I think creates internal tension inside the stringsaver, which may increase total friction or increase the forces opposing free string movement. I'm not explaining this very well - sorry, I'm feeling dense today - but hopefully you get my drift.

    However, the soda pop stringsaver might allow full gut to function like gut/poly: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=246634

    Pretty radical, and rather rule-bending, but I think it would work with full gut.

    [​IMG]

    BTW, did you ever try gut/Monogut ZX?
     
    #95
  46. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Ytex is very slippery though.
     
    #96
  47. corners

    corners Legend

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    It's really hard to say. But, starting with the knowns, let's see if we can't concoct some hypotheses:

    Knowns:

    1. Mikeler likes multis
    2. Gut/Copoly is generally considered close to as good as full copoly for spin generation. Some people think it's better.
    3. Mikeler says gut/YTex didn't give him any more spin, but didn't tell us what he's comparing it to.
    4. YTex Super Tour is a copoly. RSI playtesters gave it a 3.7 for string movement, suggesting that it's pretty slippery.
    5. TWU friction testing shows that gut mains with pretty much any copoly cross is more slippery than almost any copoly in a full bed. So we can assume that Mikeler's gut/YTex setup was slippery enough to slide and snapback and thereby generate extra spin.
    6. The strings "didn't move", suggesting that the gut mains were indeed sliding and snapping back into place.

    Hypotheses:

    1. Mikeler is wrong. He got extra spin but, because he does not have a tracking computer, radar gun and tennis physics computer as onboard equipment, was not able to correctly apprehend this fact. The only way to falsify this hypothesis would be to pack you off to the Wilson Spin Lab.

    2. The main strings were sliding and snapping back, but that snap back was not generating extra spin because the tension was too low. In such an open pattern, the loose natural gut was able to slide and stretch very far out of line, too far. So even though the string snapped back into line, that snapback did not occur soon enough or fast enough to put extra rotations on the ball.

    3. The main strings were sliding and snapping back, but that snap back was not generating extra spin because the tension was too low. The effective length of the crosses in a Prince Port racquet is longer than it would appear. Prince racquets already have long crosses because they are so wide at 3&9, and the fact that the string effectively "starts" on the outside of the frame rather than at the grommet opening, makes them even longer.

    TWU experiments on open patters showed that the stiffness of the cross strings is critical to get the type of snapback that creates spin and doesn't just result in a high rebound angle. Longer strings tensioned to the same tension as shorter strings are less stiff. So your cross strings were not stiff enough. This can cause the same problem described in hypothesis #2 - mains move too much. Too much main string movement can create a torque called a normal force offset, which is an anti-string torque, that cancelled out any additional spin created by the snapping main strings.


    4. You strung too low for such an open pattern, creating an average stringbed stiffness low enough to allow the ball to dent the stringbed so much that a normal force offset large enough to cancel out any snapback-generated spin. Even with strings that don't slide and snapback, but are flexible enough to deform and "pocket" the ball a great deal, this can happen.

    5. Some combination of Hypotheses 2,3,4 & 5

    To test these hypotheses we need only restring Mikeler's 16x18...

    ...with a stiffer copoly cross string at the same tension
    ...with the same strings but up the tensions to 60/55 or 55/55 or 56/54

    I would be more confident in these recommendations if you were using a cross string that is in TW's database, as stiffness is a critical factor in the last four hypotheses. Instead, you're using some weird brand about which we have no objective information. :)
     
    #97
  48. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Corners,

    You are way too smart for me! Awesome post as usual and I'll try to respond below.

    I agree that the low tensions might be fouling up the works. The Exo Tour is a very unique frame as well.

    I'd love to try higher tensions because I do enjoy comparing my feelings on court with science but unless my elbow goes from "OK" to "No pain" soon, I have no intention of upping tension.

    All that being said, I've had a few multi strings (Dunlop DNA) comes to mind recently) that produced a heavier ball. I've used the gut/poly in mostly cooler conditions compared to DNA though. I'll report back after my matches this weekend.
     
    #98
  49. The Big Kahuna

    The Big Kahuna Semi-Pro

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    If you check the Ratings Database there from the playtests done by StringForum of all co-polys on the market with a minimum of 30 teats report, BOTH the Yonex polys are # and #2 at this time. They are also #1 and #2 in PRICE PERFORMANCE RATIO raiting (best for the money).

    The Yonex Poly Tour Pro 125 is a very good choice.

    These are impressive results.
     
    #99
  50. boinz

    boinz Rookie

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    ChicagoJack, I noiced on your signature you are using a 15L with MB 18g as crosses... Does the thin MB cuts into your gut easily?
    Becos recently I ordered some gut in 16 and 16L and I am worried to string them with my MB

    Cheers
     

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