Low, low tensions. 30lbs feels great. 20lbs pretty good, too

Discussion in 'Strings' started by TW Staff, Mar 25, 2010.

  1. alpinenut

    alpinenut New User

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    Two more thoughts. I don't think the Kevlar mains work well for ELT because they don't snap back as well as Poly. Also, the dwell time you get with Poly at ELT is much greater than with Kevlar so you're able to absorb power/spin better and you have more control of your own shot. No scientific evidence just my opinion based on how it felt on the court.
     
  2. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    I suppose it all depends on the type of strokes you hit. I had an ok experience with some gamma poly at 32 with some prince syngut dura at 32. It was not as stiff as the kevlar but i hit well with it.....for 45 minutes until it stopped working.

    Switched back to kevlar and well that is what i will use from now on.

    The poly also had a weird placticy feeling sound i didnt dig.

    Its funny because you are right about the dwell time. Though coming from kevlar in the 60s i never HAD dwell time so i am actually liking the dwell i get now!!

    Would love to play a 5.5 but havent seen any
     
  3. alpinenut

    alpinenut New User

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    Tried Cylcone 1.25mm x Co-Focus 1.23mm at 33x30. Pocketing and spin not as good as full bed of Gamma IO 1.28mm at 33x30. For my frame, 98 sq in. and 16x19 pattern, the thicker gauges of full poly bed seem like the way to go with ELT. More control, more pocketing, more spin. It's funny because in the 50s I prefer a hybrid at about 1.25mm. Next up full bed of Co-Focus 1.27mm to compare vs Gamma IO. I already have a good feeling after stringing it.
     
  4. drgchen

    drgchen Rookie

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    Your conclusion is wrong. There are 44 people who say that they prefer mid and high range polys as opposed to the 15 that say they are hooked. Most people find their ideal tension by trying different tensions. I am one that prefers the higher range. As a stringer I have tried all tensions. I string ETL for small kids, old guys with tennis elbow, and low level players who tell me they want poly but want a really soft bed for power.
     
  5. StringingIrvine

    StringingIrvine Semi-Pro

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    Definately not honeymooning. My WTT team won the spring season as noted above. I switched the day before play offs and have never played better.

    3 months later. Same results! I have noticed this set up only lasts about 12 hours but with msv hexl prices so cheap i don't have a problem restringing every 2-3 weeks.

    I did try cyclone for a bit but i went back to MSV hex. The cyclone did feel a little softer but i couldn't notice the difference on the bite of the ball and i preferred the slightly stiffer msv hex. The msv hex seemed to have a more consistant tension drop off.

    Two peat on league championships, I guess its time to move up!
     
  6. BabolatTennis9

    BabolatTennis9 New User

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    used kirschbaum spiky sharks 1.30 at 9 lbs on my old babolat aero pro drive gt and it played like a charm :D
     
  7. v-verb

    v-verb Hall of Fame

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    9 lbs???? That's a record I think
     
  8. StringingIrvine

    StringingIrvine Semi-Pro

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    i don't even think my revo goes do 9 pounds, i think it starts at 12 or something =p.
     
  9. BabolatTennis9

    BabolatTennis9 New User

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    @ 9 lbs you could just feel the ball go into the racket. it had so much trampoline effect that at the beginning i launched every ball but i started hitting better with it after i started rotating my body for more spin. It plays well but i wouldnt do it again its to unpredictable
     
  10. ccapp

    ccapp New User

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    Hey Y'all - This thread has been around for a few years now, but it's as relevant today as it was when Chris (TW Staff) started it in 2010. I spent quite a bit of time on it yesterday, and with an overwhelming number of possibilites for a racquet/string/tension set-up, it's helpful to use others' input on string and tension in order to discover the personal holy grail of racquet/string/tension combination. With a seemingly infinite number of combinations, it could take a lifetime to make that quest. Thanks to everyone for their input, especially TW Staff. Here's my two cents for anyone as stuborn as I have been to lower my co-poly tension into the 40s or lower: As far as co-polys go (that's all I can speak to), the power of the string bed as you decrease the string tension is a bell curve. For the past 3 years I have played with an 18g co-poly at 60#. When I switched from a tweener stick to a super thin and flexy player's stick I droped to 55#. Next thing I know I'm right back up to 60# to take some distance off my flat shots. A friend convinced me to go to the mid 40# range. Assuming all these years that it's a linear graph (lower tension = more power and distance) (even in the world of co-polys, I was skeptical). Sure enough, it seems to be a bell curve. Yesterday was my first hit ever at 45#. It was quite a "eureka" moment. It was very playable. Seemingly less power than at 55#. I'm not sure where the peak of the power curve is exactly with my set up, but 45# was on the down side of the curve. Granted, I definitely adjusted my swing speed a bit. In order to dial-in a flat shot, I slowed the swing down and/or shortened my backswing to control the depth of shot. I think the greater sense of control at 45# versus 55# has a lot to do with the greater amount of topspin achievable with a 45# co-poly stringbed compared with a 55# stringbed. The "cupping" effect at 45# increases the surface area contact between the strings and the ball, creating more friction and more "grab" on the ball, hence more spin potential. Lastly, I just strung up a stick at 35# and will test drive it today. My hunch (seemingly confirmed throughout the 3 year thread) is that at some point, too low a string tension in my particular set up will be a net negative (pun intended) and that will indicate where the playability threshold will be on the low end. My guess is that my new string tension range paradigm for my co-poly string bed is going to be between 35# and 45# (as far as polys/co-polys are concerned). I'm definitely thinking twice about the 50# - 60# range that has been a standard in the racquet manufacturing industry for decades.
     
  11. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I tried 15 kg (33 lbs) in my PSC 95 and K90, and it was too little. Too little feel of the ball, too little power. 15 kg seemed to work in my PS85, probably because of the smaller head. So I am looking forward to try 20 kg (45 lbs) in the 95. Have the same purpose, take some power of, without it going all mushy.
     
  12. cperda

    cperda New User

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    Last night I strung my pk ki5 with rpm blast at 14kg (30 lbs). I will try it tonight. The guy that was stringing told me I was the second person in his life who asked him for a job at such low tension. The first one was Volandri at Viña del Mar Open (11kg).
     
  13. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    The funny thing about all of this as a trend is the fact that the trend for a long time was to cut strings out as soon as they lost tension.
     
  14. nirianto

    nirianto New User

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    Are there strings that don't play well at low tension at all? I'm guessing powerful string like BHBR will feel like trampoline at 30lbs range compared to at high 40s.
     
  15. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Hall of Fame

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    Im looking for input.

    Ive been trying a full bed of poly so far with cyclone 17 mains at 47lbs and Kirschbaum super smash orange 1.23 at 45 for the crosses. I use silicone spray. Ive gotten about 20 hours and now Im noticing a slight lack of control... but still no arm pain. Time for the next low tension string job.

    Now that it is getting colder Im thinking of trying a full bed of Yonex Poly Tour Pro 1.25 at 45Lbs or a gut hybrid of Toughgut 16 at say 50 (or is 47 better) and poly tour pro crosses at 45 but Im concerned about the gut being too powerful. Would the poly Tour tame it?

    This would be in a Pacific xfeel pro 95. It is a very low powered for an open patterned 95. Im a 4.5 all courter.

    Just looking for a little feedback on whether the low tension stuff works on a gut/poly or if it is better full poly?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  16. Don't Let It Bounce

    Don't Let It Bounce Hall of Fame

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    There is such a category in my experience, but BHBR does not fall into it for me. I've always liked softer stringbeds, including full beds of low-stiffness polys at ~30 lb, but even for me the two Polyfibre strings I tried like that (Poly Hightec and TCS) were uncontrollable.
     
  17. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

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    Big difference between fresh strings strung at low tensions and strings that have lost all resiliency and have dropped to the same tension.
     
  18. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Regarding replies 2063 and 2067

    We are at very strange cross roads regarding understanding the true nature of poly. We have a truck load of new information, yet the old misconceptions keep getting recycled. Back in late 90's to mid 2000's, when poly use really started to escalate, you almost never heard anybody cutting string out, and the phrases "poly death" and "loss of elasticity" were pretty rare. Now these buzz words / catch phrases are like the secret handshake to gain entrance to the club house. Yet we are sitting right on top of two very controlled studies here at the TWU that indicate strings don't lose elasticity, our most fundamental beliefs about this material are flawed, and by the way, player descriptions about how string plays as it ages varies wildly and is often contradictory.

    We know poly does not lose much elasticity because string that was literally hammered on until tension went to zero will behave almost identically to fresh string, provided that same string is simply re-tensioned. The testing procedure repeated this hammer till tension toss goes to zero -> restring procedure 6 times, it was designed to torture string well beyond any typical playing situations, the results were pretty amazing.

    Below are some old posts of mine that explain this a little bit.


     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  19. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

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    When you start quoting yourself as an authoritative source you have a real problem.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  20. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Pff, whatever dude. The only person I am quoting as an authoritative source is Crawford Lindsey.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  21. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    It's not quotation used as an authority but as a time-saving shortcut.
     
  22. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Yes exactly, thanks Bartelby.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  23. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

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    You are citing a ten+ year old book. Strings and racquets have changed significantly during that time. I am so sick of the pseudo-science yobos. You are a self anointed *** hat. Lots of posts, but nothing of real substance there. In other words, you don't know what you don't know.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  24. S&V Specialist

    S&V Specialist Rookie

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    It definitely seems that he knows what he is talking about within the context of this thread (and elsewhere). I would definitely call Crawford Lindsey and authoritative source when it comes to tennis science, and ChicagoJack has simply made the writings of Crawford Lindsey more concise and readable to the general tennis playing public. Now back to the thread...
     
  25. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    1. OY. Your upset stems from something you think you saw while skimming quickly. It is an entirely self inflicted wound. If you had actually read my post, you'd see that the quotes and links I provided are not from Lindsey's book. They are from the March - April 2013 studies available in the Tennis Warehouse University. Seems clear you've never once glanced at the studies either, because the dates are listed very clearly right underneath the titles. Poly death has been mentioned a gazillion times in this thread, and I thought it might be helpful to shed some light in here.

    2. I didn't quote your statement directly, because I didn't want you to feel like I was calling you out on a fairly common misconception. I'll be more direct. What you don't seem to be comprehending (perhaps because you joined TT in March 2012), is the idea that strings go dead due to lost resiliency is not the new news, it is the old baseless theory which has been circulating around here since 2008 or so, and has since been dis-proven. The March 2013 studies indicate that poly death is merely a matter of two factors, tension loss and increasing friction caused by notching and abrasion. I invite you to reconsider who "doesn't know what you don't know" here.

    3. If you would like to double check my sources, my interpretation of the study, or the science behind it, I encourage you to look to the following link below. It's a tough read, but the conversation 15-18 paragraphs down, in the section entitled "The Experiment, Loss of Elasticity and Resilience Tests" is pretty illuminating and gets to the heart of the matter.

    How Tennis Strings "Go Dead" — Part 2, Do Strings Lose Elasticity with Repeated Impacts?
    Crawford Lindsey, Tennis Warehouse, San Luis Obispo, CA, 93401 April 17, 2013
    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/deadstringsPart2.php

    Thank you SV Specialist, much appreciated. Yeah, Lindsey is a tough read. I'm just doing my best to translate some very dense information into something more easily understood. Sometimes people interpret the length of my posts as expression of ego. I simply have a passion for certain complex topics, and these topics are difficult to cover concisely. I'm actually much more of a lurker around here. I don't post all that often, compared to many recent TT members (1,700 posts since 2005) but when I do, I try to make it something useful.

    -Jack
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  26. jackcrawford

    jackcrawford Professional

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    Terrific information, thanks for the effort to post it. It fits in with what I have experienced in my play with poly, but scientific studies are always needed to back up anecdotal notes.
     
  27. unorthodox stringing

    unorthodox stringing Rookie

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    Great post Jack!

    I'm with you on this one for sure cos I personally tested it many times...despite being called crazy and stingy :)

    http://unorthodoxstringing.blogspot.sg/2013/08/residual-elasticity-part-2-hammer58.html

    That's why I recommended re-using used poly too!

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=479853

    Guess I'm not that unorthodox after all... ;)
     
  28. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I don't know the scientific reasons as to why? But I find that poly changes after every match and is not constant.

    I think that the only way to get a constant with poly is a fresh string job after every match .
     
  29. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Hello. Serena no longer uses an all but set up. She has been using 4g crosses for over a year. And incidentally, they catapulted her game.
     
  30. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    I don't know. When I see her, ALL I see is but :)
     
  31. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Me too - all butt with a lot of junk in the trunk.
     
  32. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    When I see her I see a champion who has won 17 singles and 15 doubles grand slams, 3 Olympic gold medals and has the best serve in the women's game EVER. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.
     
  33. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    FWIW I was making fun of Dbrenner's typo...."an all but set up". Of all the players to be talking about and make that typo, you have to admit it is an interesting mistake.

    Nothing against Serena or her accomplishments.

    I'll try to limit my drinking while TTing.
     
  34. SOY78

    SOY78 Semi-Pro

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    Back to the OP. I have tried 3 low tension setups.

    1) Volkl C10 Pro Extended MP with Topspin Polytech 17 at 35#'s.
    2) Boris Becker DC London Tour with Polyfibre Hightec 17 at 35#'s.
    3) Volkl Tour 10 V-Engine mid with Pro Supex Big Ace 17L at 35#.

    So far my favorite out of those is the C10 Extended with the cheap poly. I played with it almost a year now and it still feels ok. The T10v and Boris Becker just didn't have good feel for some reason maybe I should go down on those even more close to 30 pounds. I have also just strung a Prince EXO3 tour 18x20 with Polystar Classic 1.10. I will post the results here as soon as I will play with it sometime this week. BTW stringing so low takes about 10 minutes off my stringing time. I have tried polys at 50#'s in the same timeframe as ELT and the 50# felt like a 2x4 compared to the ELT. With ELT I just have to tweak my strokes just a little to compensate for the power.
     
  35. danotje

    danotje Rookie

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    I've been playing ELT for a while now, too, and I see no reason to go back. Found a great spin set up in BHBR x WC Silverstring. Even dragging some guys down with me as everyone I let try it seems to like it. Good stuff.
     
  36. nickarnold2000

    nickarnold2000 Hall of Fame

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    How many hours are you getting out of this set up? I liked mid 30's full poly for about 1.5 hours and then the snap back stopped and I started having problems with control.
     
  37. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Exactly!!

    Poly is awesome for a short time then it sucks!

    Look we try and simulate what the pros do. The pros play a match and then use a new set of poly for the next day.......

    This is the way poly was meant to be used.


    I realized this and figured out a solution. ........I found a string which is almost as good as poly but it maintains tension an playability for a very very long time......it's ESPECIALLY good on low tensions.

    That string is Kevlar hybrid with gut on the crosses.

    Although Kevlar is not as good as poly at the outset .....it's far better after just a couple of hours . It maintains its tension and just keeps playing great for a long time.

    Bottom line:

    Poly > kevlar for one match

    Kevlar > poly for anything after one match
     
  38. Tennisguy3000

    Tennisguy3000 Semi-Pro

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    I am going to have to string a stick at 35 lbs & try it. Interesting Blog ;-)
     
  39. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    New convert to 30 lbs poly.

    Strung up BHBR 17 in my Head EP 2.0 and my opponent commented on how heavy the ball was. Made my PT630 Gut/CoFocus look like a flat ball.
     
  40. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I have found kevlar main with poly x's to be the best set up.
     
  41. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    Though for anyone who says 30 lbs is comfortable......it's really not.
     
  42. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Its relative I suppose. I thought 30 was super comfy coming from the 60s, but going down to 20, or even 15, and then going to 30, 30 was harsh at first.
     
  43. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Now 30lbs can feel harsh? this thread is hilarious, I suggest you guys just string the racket by hand. No need for a machine just pull the tension by hand, should be able to avoid those harsh 30 lbs set ups that way. lol
     
  44. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    If 30 lbs. is not comfy enough you need to find a machine that will pull in ounces. Maybe 8-10 ounces of tension would be a comfortable tension.
     
  45. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    The only reason I ever tried the low tension was because of TE. So yeah 30lbs can be harsh to a sensitive arm.

    And yes, my machine only goes as low as 15lbs. I wish it would go lower.

    and it has to do too with racket size. 20lbs in and os is different than 20lbs in an 85. Oh and that 30lb setup that seemed harsh was using kevlar in the mains, which most people don't use. Kevlar produces a stiff stringbed even at 30lbs....
     
  46. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Ya kevlar can be pretty stiff at any tension, I know because I use kevlar mains and nothing is better for a consistent string bed.

    If you have had TE and are worried about it then I would suggest not using poly and use a multi.
     
  47. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    I used to play gut poly at 50+ pounds.

    30 lbs full bed poly is much harsher.
     
  48. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Yeah you are right. Though I really dig a stiff stringbed, even if my arm doesnt. Played with Kevlar for the last 15+ years I think.

    I will try a multi and have in the past. I really like the Prince Premier string. Very soft and comfy.

    Also, I could be wrong but since I switched to the Prostaff 85 and its more dense pattern, doesnt poly loose some of its spin magic anyhow?
     
  49. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I think that the tighter pattern does take away from the spin that poly provides.
     
  50. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I can't imagine poly at 30 lbs. being harsh, I have tried it in the high 30's and it seemed like I had rubber bands in the racket. Did not care for it but it was anything but harsh.
     

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