Major Changes

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by herrburgess, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. herrburgess

    herrburgess Rookie

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    As a captain in our local league I received the following in an e-mail today in reference to a captain's meeting that has been announced for 11/15:

    "We will be announcing MAJOR CHANGES that are effective immediately and will directly impact all team registrations for spring 2010...."

    Has anyone else (outside of the Southern section) received a similar notice? Does this likely have to do with the rumor that starting in 2010 no automatic appeals will be allowed? Is there more to the story? Anyone know?
     
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  2. 10sguy

    10sguy Rookie

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    Regarding "automatic appeals" (which, BTW, are not really "automatic" - players have to initiate the process), players with five or more matches in the system (each year) will not be allowed to appeal their computer rating. Like a lot of players, I really like this because, among other reasons, we'll now likely see a lot of different faces at District/Sectional/National events.
     
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  3. herrburgess

    herrburgess Rookie

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    yea, that must be the announcement, as I see that they have invited an NTRP "expert" to answer our questions....
     
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  4. Geezer Guy

    Geezer Guy Hall of Fame

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    We were notified of changes as well. I didn't think they were anything that drastic. The biggest thing is that we don't play a regular 3rd set in league matches any more.
     
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  5. Wakenslam

    Wakenslam Rookie

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    I sure hope this is not the case in Atlanta. The day they get rid of the third set is the day I quit playing in that league.
     
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  6. Geezer Guy

    Geezer Guy Hall of Fame

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    I don't like it either. I'm OK with it in tournaments, where you might be playing another match in an hour or two, but for a league I'd much rather play out the 3rd set.
     
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  7. HitItHarder

    HitItHarder Semi-Pro

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    Monday, I was told by a local league person (here is SC) that the USTA is making some changes to the rules that allow our local USTA leagues to choose whether to play a third set or a 10-point match tie break.

    He made it sound like we were no longer going to have that option to choose to play the third set and that everyone was going to have to use the 10 point match tie break. I hope this isn't the case. I hate ending a hard fought match that way.
     
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  8. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    down here in south florida, teams are required to play a 10 pt tie break for a third set. no one is happy with it.
     
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  9. herrburgess

    herrburgess Rookie

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    Well, here in CTL we play the 10-point tiebreak anyhow, so I doubt that's the (whole) news. We'll see...
     
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  10. innoVAShaun

    innoVAShaun Hall of Fame

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    Yeah we've been doing that 10 Point Tie-Break in lieu of a 3rd since i started playing USTA Leagues.

    Here we only use a the public tennis center for all of our league matches. Out of the 12 public courts, 10 are used for the leagues. They schedule team matches at 6:30pm and 8pm. So that means that teams are waiting to get on the court at 8pm. This 10 point tie-break kind of speeds up the process.

    What I don't like about speeding up the process, is at postseason. If we are behind schedule, USTA tells us to play no-deuce. That sucks even more.
     
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  11. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    Herrburgess, it sounds like your local coordinator is referring to some new local league rules or procedures. As an FYI, 2010 USTA National Regulations are already out, with major changes for 2010 prominently displayed in red on page 1. Regarding playing out the third set or playing a TB, most Sections & Districts allow local leagues to determine their match format. However, since the 3rd set TB is used at all Championships, it makes sense to use it at the local level as well. See below from the USTA National Regs.

    3.01G Scoring and Rest. It is recommended that all matches be the best of two tiebreak sets with a match tiebreak in lieu of a third set. There will be no coaching during the 2-minute set breaks. The tiebreak shall be scored as 1 set and 1 game for tiebreak purposes. For play at, or below, the Section level, the Section Association may authorize the use of other USTA approved scoring methods and other scoring methods that are compatible with the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System. Other match formats include: best of three tiebreak sets with a set tiebreak at 6- all, pro-set matches, a single set with a set or match tiebreak at 6-all. No-Ad scoring can be used with any of the above scoring methods

    Just an observation here, but it seems like there is much discussion on this board about USTA rules & regulations. Most questions can be answered by simply reading the USTA National, Sectional, District, & Local League rules which are easily accessible online. The rules work from the top (Nationals) down, so everyone has to comply with National Rules. I know sometimes the USTA rules can be a little unclear, but it still would make sense to me to look up the rules rather than go by "word of mouth" information.
     
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  12. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, I kept trying to bring that up, but I kept getting an error today both in firefox and IE.

    So it sounds like they didnt really change the rule nationally, perhaps they just changed it in the Section for some of you guys.

    I for one will not bother fielding a team if they change this rule, but we have other options where I am. ("Renegade" Leagues)

    It actually doesnt make sense to make an area change their scoring format to me.

    Any given division can have many many many teams, and only a handful make it to the playoffs. So it makes no sense to cheapen the experience for everyone just to ready a few times for the playoffs.

    (if they want to "practice" playing match tiebreaks they can do it on their own time.....)

    And that being said if you're already doing it that way in your area and you dont mind, then fine. We vote on it every year and it's always overwelming that everyone wants to keep the 3rd set.
     
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  13. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    Our local Adult league used to play out the third set. (Personally, I enjoyed playing out that third set.) But we changed to the 3rd set TB about 4 years ago, and surprisingly, a lot of players like it. One of the big reasons is time issues. Some of the matches that went to 3 sets were taking 3-4 hours. Our leagues are big, and we'd run into court time issues almost every weekend. Many teams play at clubs, and some of the clubs said they'd have to limit the number of teams if the format didn't change. I guess there are pros and cons to both ways.
     
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  14. herrburgess

    herrburgess Rookie

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    I did look this up actually and only found the rule that benchmark players cannot use the automatic appeal function and appeal down. I still find the situation a bit curious, because in the mail it said that these changes would "directly affect registration for all Spring 2010 teams." This leads me to believe that it is not just an announcement about tiebreaks....
     
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  15. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Yes that's a typical issue when anyone runs a business. You want to get more "customers" but you weaken the product when you accommodate that, so it's a sort of catch22.

    Our leagues are pretty big as well and like I said the captains vote on it every year and you know which way that goes.....

    I know clubs dont like it, but if you left it up to them to have their own way, they wouldnt allow USTA leagues at all, because they can fill their courts full of kids tennis lessons and make a lot more money that way. (at least in my area where you have to make pretty decent coin to belong to a indoor club, especially if all your kids are taking lessons.....)

    I think as it is now in our area they are somewhat forced to go along with because those of us that play in the league only bother to belong to their clubs so we can improve our games to be in this league.

    Ive rarely ever seen a match go 3 or 4 hours. We had a 4.5 hour one (that actually lasted over 8.5 days) this year, but that was really unique. Usually if it's taking that long, you'll see players chit chatting and arguing and wasting tons of time.
     
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  16. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    no such rule as the no 3rd set rule

    I sent an email to my local coordinator and she pushed it thru the District Coordinator and they talked to the Section Coordinator (for the Mid_West Section), and they got a response from someone on the National Committee.

    According to them the rumor isnt true, local areas can still choice to play their local matches in any of the approved scoring methods as laid out by the USTA League Rules.

    (although I think that was pretty clear already from the 2010 League Rules)
     
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  17. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Here is one from the NorCal adult league committe August meeting minutes:

     
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  18. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    It's kind of a tough issue for clubs. So I can see their side of it. They have to generate income to stay in business, yet keep their members happy by allowing them to have USTA teams. And members that don't play on USTA teams always complain when they can't get courts because of leagues. So they have to balance things out to keep everyone happy.

    Even if everyone used public courts for matches, you could still run into time issues. In our area, it was mostly women's matches that went long, and it did happen frequently. Each set lasted about an hour, then you add a break between the 2nd & 3rd set and you end up with a 3.5 hour match. There was probably some chit-chat going on to slow things down too. The only way to handle the 3 sets, vs 3rd set TB issue is to let the majority rule. Again, there are pros and cons to both sides of it. As a player, I liked the third set. But as a former local coordinator, the 3rd set wreaked havoc on the league on a regular basis and the 3rd set TB became a godsend. And, most players seemed to like it once they got used to it. And captains said it made their lives easier as well. Positive feedback from captains is always a good thing.:) Without captains, there would be no leagues.
     
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  19. HitItHarder

    HitItHarder Semi-Pro

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    Glad this was just a rumor. Now I just have to hope that our state division doesn't go and screw this up for us. The teams in our local league have consistently voted for the third set as opposed to a 10 point tie break set and I want it to stay that way.
     
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  20. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    Another change that some might consider major is the age requirement. For this year and prior years, one had to be at least 19 during the year. Starting in 2010, one must be at least 18 to participate.
     
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  21. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Yes what is interesting about that is you only have to turn 18 in the same calendar year. So you can actually be 17. (in the past you could be 18 if you turned 19 in the same calendar year)

    Which means that someone who isnt even a senior in High School yet can play in it. (Ive already seen kids who have just graduated in it)

    Some high schools have students that are better then a lot of college teams, it will be interesting to see how many sneak onto some of these teams.
     
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  22. Islandtennis

    Islandtennis Rookie

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    Javier, the rationale from the USTA is try and get kids more exposed to league tennis before they leave home. Very few adults start in league tennis until their 30's now. The thought is that if kids can be exposed to league tennis before college; when they graduate, more will come back to league tennis in their 20's rather than wait until their late 30's or 40's.
     
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  23. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    This seems like a good idea. A lot of kids are playing tennis now, but if there is no immediate transition into adult tennis, it may never happen. I hope it works.
     
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  24. SlapChop

    SlapChop Semi-Pro

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    I think a 10 point tie break could end up taking much longer than a 3rd set. I do not even see why they would want to do this.
     
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  25. goober

    goober Legend

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    Huh? An average 10 point tie breaker will take 15-20 points. the longest ones take maybe 15 minutes. The fastest a set gets played out is maybe 20-25 minutes if you bagel someone. But with 2 evenly matched opponents if it goes 7-6 it could easily be over an hour.
     
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  26. SlapChop

    SlapChop Semi-Pro

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    I wrote that wrong.

    I wouldn't mind getting rid of 3rd set by that point I am usually not having fun anymore. I played a 3 hour match a couple weeks ago and was completely miserable the last set. I wouldn't have even wanted to play the next opponent one hour after this match. I just went to a hard serve and charged the net. I am happy that I didn't win. 4-6 7-6(4) 6-4. There was tons of dues and all kinds of not fun stuff. I got sunburned too. This match was in the Semi Finals. My opponent when on to play his next match 1 hour later and lost 6-1 6-2 I'm sure he didn't have much fun on the next match either. That is not to say I haven;t had fun 3rd sets but I was beat, my toes where bleeding and I had two purple big toes and walked with a hobble for 4 days after. Yes I got new shoes but I wouldn't want to play that match again. EVER.
     
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  27. SlapChop

    SlapChop Semi-Pro

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    What I originally meant to say was I have never played a required 10 point tie break and don't know why they would want to completely change up the structure of the game.
     
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  28. goober

    goober Legend

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    Well I think it was covered pretty well by others. It is almost always time constraints. Many league matches are at night. You simply cannot have a match go on for 3-4 hours and tie up the courts or goes past closing time. Once that happens the tennis center will usually limit or not allow USTA teams to play there. I have never played a full 3rd set in a league match. When it is 9:30 pm most people are fine with playing a 10 pt TB in lieu of a 3rd set.
     
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  29. Spokewench

    Spokewench Semi-Pro

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    Our section has since I started played the 3rd Set TB. I'm fine with it; actually, I like tie break play - it really puts you on your toes and makes you focus (at least it does that to me)!
     
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  30. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Wow, you must not really like to play tennis then.

    For some people enduring that builds character. Now I wouldnt want to be doing that every single day since I have a job to get to in the morning and I dont want to be dead, but if a match was important enough that's okay with me.

    Tennis is a physical sport and some people enjoy the fact that playing a 3rd set favors people who are in better shape. (and have shoes that are not brand new and wear plenty of sunblock...)

    Some people dont and that's fine as well but like I said, my area votes on it and it's always overwhelming to keep it.

    Also the indoor clubs do not kick us out either (when it happens to be indoors).

    We dont have free for all tennis though where anyone can setup a indoor team in the summer, usually the "home" team there is a bunch of guys that are members of that club. Or if it rains we pay some sort of really expensive "rainout" fee to get to play indoors.

    Thus nobody really gets kicked out. Some poor front desk person may get stuck waiting around until past 10pm at night, but it's surprising that usually matches dont go past that here. (we usually have two time slots from 6pm to 10pm and anywhere from 5 to 10 courts at a facility)
     
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  31. SlapChop

    SlapChop Semi-Pro

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    I think that was really the only 3rd set that I hated and it happened to be 2 weeks ago, so it is fresh on my mind. Might right big toe is still purple. I bought some terrible shoes that just tore my feet up. 3 hours is also much too long for a match. Maybe instead of dropping the 3rd set they should put up a time limit then go to a tiebreaker.
     
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  32. 10sguy

    10sguy Rookie

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    . . . an NTRP "expert" - Huh??
     
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  33. 10sguy

    10sguy Rookie

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    "National will be changing the self rate process to not allow players who
    return to have the option to select a lower level than what they left with. A player will be allowed to appeal the rating through the self rate appeal process that is currently used for all."

    That's just a small piece of what'll be new.
     
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  34. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    I am not to sure yet on the new Age Rule, as it will open uop a whole can of worms letting 17 y.o. play league, most times a 17 y.o will be a Spring Junior and as of hyet has not committed to a college, they will need to tighten up the Sectional Jr Ranking matrix for NTRP in this instance.
     
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  35. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    I guess you're talking about only the college-related guidelines on the self-rating matrix Jlyon. The other guidelines, such as high sectional and national rankings should stay the same. But the college-related guidelines are way outdated and are in serious need of revision. For example many juco and D-3 players are only 3.5 at best, and many more are just average 4.0s, yet they must self-rate 4.5 until they are 36 I think. That by itself would keep many of them from joining leagues. I hope USTA will use this opportunity to take a good look at this and come up with some more reasonable guidelines.
     
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  36. amarone

    amarone Semi-Pro

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    According to these guidelines, a high school kid ranked outside the top 20 in his section can self-rate at 3.5 (or even 3.0, if his high school team did not make the playoffs). Kids ranked 21 - 30 in the Southern Section 18s are at least 5.0.
     
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  37. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    That's probably also true in Texas, Florida, and California, tennis hotbeds. Maybe USTA should also look at that guideline.
     
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  38. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    A Top 100 Southern Player is a minimum high 4.0, Top 20 is 5.5 for sure
     
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