Make up calls

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by RogerRacket111, May 10, 2010.

  1. RogerRacket111

    RogerRacket111 Semi-Pro

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    What do you guys think of this? Usually when a person who believes to have got a bad call retorts by make another bad call.

    Personally I feel like I don't want to stoop down to that and I just let it go.

    How do you deal with compulsive bad line callers?
     
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  2. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I call footfaults on them. Lots and lots of footfaults.

    I stand firmly by the old saying, "Why bother playing tennis at all when you can have a good old fashioned p*ssing match instead".

    Words to live by.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
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  3. chollyred

    chollyred Rookie

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    I was playing mixed last Sunday evening and really had my serve going well; not a lot of power, but was painting the lines. If the ball was within 6 inches of the line, the lady across the net automatically called it out. Her partner wouldn't dispute her bad calls. Really hacked me off. I started hitting some good kicks into the body or slicing the ball away. I don't think I've served that well all season. But, I never made a bad call in retaliation. There were a couple of times when I wanted to, but I played it straight.

    We won 6-0, 6-3. :twisted:
     
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  4. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Once against a habitual bad line caller I hooked a line from him on purpose. I did it out of anger / frustration and in such a way that he new I did it, and I knew he knew I did it. I won the match easily. I did not need to do it, but I did not help myself.

    I could not sleep and 2 days later I felt so bad that I called him to apologize. His reaction was priceless. He said not to worry about it ... he refered to them as "tournament calls" and that he had done this many times before.

    Fortunately it was in a meaningless match that had no bearing on playoffs or our match. But I just felt "dirty" for a long time after that.
     
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  5. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    I would do it in a tournament... but I would do it on an obvious ball just to make a point, something in the center of the court. But only if I felt my opponent was deliberately cheating... and trust me I give my opponents a lot of lee-way.

    But good cheaters are smart enough to only hook you on vital key points in a match. Those that need to hook you on a regular basis are probably not good enough to beat you anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
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  6. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I got caught up in that once, and the more angry and frustrated I got, the worse I played. I ended up wasting my time looking for calls to hook him back and lost a winnable match 6-2 6-0. I learned my lesson and just let it go now. This is just for fun.
     
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  7. bcart1991

    bcart1991 Semi-Pro

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    If it's an habitual bad-caller, calmly giving it right back to them is the only way to get them to mend their ways.

    If it's the key-point-bad-caller, you have a greater challenge on your hands. Those 30-all points are gonna be loooooong...
     
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  8. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    If you intentionally hook someone for any reason, the Tennis Gods will get you.

    It's best not to anger the Tennis Gods.
     
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  9. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I don't know where the term "tournament call" comes from but in all the senior age group tournaments I've played in I can't recall one instance where I thought my opponent cheated me.
    On the other hand in league or play-offs it's hard to recall where "gamesmanship" didn't super-seed the tennis. I recall a team hanger-on giving us a pre playoff pep-talk, (because he'd "been there"), where he half-jokingly said, "And if all else fails, CHEAT".

    On the rare occasions in recreational play where I've cheated "em back to get even, they stopped cheating every time! I had a coach once tell me, "If they cheat you, cheat 'em back"--and then don't play with those people anymore. When the inveterate cheater realizes you will take a point back for every one they steal from you, they stop employing the cheating strategy.

    I like to employ it when we are both looking down the line and the ball hits in the middle of the line and I can look "em right in the eye and said "OUT"--they don't even give a whimper. Psychologicaly, this kind of tennis sociopath, earns your respect when you prove to them that your are their equal in sociopathic behavior. Maybe in their black hearts, they fear losing a point to a fellow cheater more than gaining a point by cheating, so they stop doing it. I want to add that I have only employed this on a few very rare occasions where it was a known cheater and not poor or lazy vision.

    Just last night, I was playing doubles against a cocky 17 year old kid and his 30ish partner. Their calls and non-calls were pathetic. I didn't attribute it to cheating but to their LAZY confused psyches blurring their vision. They were playing serves and shots at least 6" out and you didn't know if they were returning them or not because they weren't making calls by hand or voice. If the eyes are a window to the mind, they were just a couple of messed up guys. I gave up on the match competitively and switched over to just use it for practice. I couldn't take it seriously anymore with all the poor "eyesight" and confusion with non-calls. I didn't want to stop to "discuss" each bad call there were too many of them. The 17 year old is probably well on his way to becoming a life-long adult tennis cheater. The 30 year old thinks he's hot but he's NOT, he falls apart with the least amount of pressure. The mind sees what it wants to see.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
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  10. BillH

    BillH Rookie

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    I've been in a few seniors matches where I initially thought the other team was hooking us. These guys were older and I soon realized that they weren't cheating, they actually couldn't see the ball that well on some of the calls. Personally, I would rather not resort to 'make up" calls - I would rather beat the cheaters and have them know we won even though they cheated.
     
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  11. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    The other thing I have noticed is that sometimes my opponent will call a ball in I would have sworn was out.

    I guess it evens out in the end.
     
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  12. bsandy

    bsandy Hall of Fame

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    My famous line . . .

    "You know the line's in, right?"

    . . . Bud
     
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  13. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    When it comes to cheating in tennis, I'm an agnostic. You don't go to hell for cheating a cheater--by playing with them you are already there. You are just teaching them empathy.
     
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  14. surfsb

    surfsb Rookie

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    It's best to let it go and not pick up the habit of hooking because you don't know how people will react. I've seen tempers explode from pick-up games where someone did an obvious hook on a line call and then the next thing you know it looks like a fight might break out.
     
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  15. ssgator80

    ssgator80 Rookie

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    What about the reverse make up call. Where you called a ball out that was damn close and could have been in. So you play the next ball that is out. Happens to me all the time.

    I dont know how to call a ball out that was in - no matter the circumstances. If I think a guy is cheating - finish the match and not play with him again. If its a tournament - call a judge.

    I have not found bad lines calls to be an issue in virtually all my matches in tournament play in FL. Maybe there is greater pressure in leagues - with the team concept and all. Most call fair and give the benefit of doubt - when in doubt.
     
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  16. bcart1991

    bcart1991 Semi-Pro

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    It's not a big deal here in GA either, but you will now and then run across that one player, and often times their reputation precedes them...
     
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  17. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    No, they are doing this early on in the match to gain your trust to get you to think they are more than fair--don't fall for it! Later on when it counts they will hook you on the back of the baseline where it's hard for you to see it.
     
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  18. ssgator80

    ssgator80 Rookie

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    Tom - you should help them out and hit the ball inside the line so they have a very good look at it and cant possibly call it out.
     
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  19. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I've played a number of leagues and tournaments here in Central Florida and never had a problem with hooking. There was one guy I played that called a few of my aces out but he was older and I genuinely think his vision was just bad.

    Juniors was a whole different story. I had one guy who did not need to cheat to beat me. He was way better than me. I finally decided to employ my coach's suggestion of just catching an in serve with my hand and calling it out. That led to about a 5 minute argument but he stopped hooking me after that.
     
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  20. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I have less respect for people who "make up" calls then those who are "hooking" in the first place.

    You have no idea whether or not the person is "hooking" intentionally. To violate the rules because you "think" that other person is "hooking" is a cowardly move in my book.
     
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  21. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    According to the code if you're not sure, you're supposed to give the point to your opponent, granted, some times you have a brain fart.

    In doubles you can give a point back when your parter makes a bad call. Rather than embarrassing your partner by over-ruling him, on your next return you can give your opponents a make-up point by obviously hitting your return un-characteristlcly long. Your opponents will be aware that you did it deliberately but your partner will be none the wiser because he didn't see your non-chalant swing into the back fence.
     
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  22. bcart1991

    bcart1991 Semi-Pro

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    If you play long enough in a league, people can become well-known for certain tactics.
     
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  23. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I wish I could, but I'm not good enough, my balls always hit the line.
     
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  24. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I must have an old copy of the code.

    The one I have states:

    "If you are unsure if a ball is in or out, you must call it in EXCEPT for big points. These are always out.

    Then, you must call the next several "meaningless" points in a very generous manner in favor of your opponent to show that you are a fair guy (well, actually just to ease your own conscience and "prove" to yourself the you are a fair guy. Nobody else is buying it)".
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
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  25. ssgator80

    ssgator80 Rookie

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    damn your good. I always felt - if you can hit the lines surely you can place the ball inside the lines. LOL
     
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  26. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    R2473, I like your signature, using it as a mantra has helped ease my nerurosies and saved me a lot on psychiatric costs.

    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
     
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  27. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly. I had just heard this kid joking with his buddies before the match with the old "win in doubt call it out". We also played on clay so I could check the mark on changeovers. There was no doubt in my mind this was deliberate cheating.
     
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  28. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Pretty unconvincing "evidence" if you ask me.

    Look if you want to cheat, you can "convince" yourself that it is an "allowable" thing based on myriad of reasons. It does not matter if you believe the otherside is cheating, it does not condone you cheating on top of it. If you see hooking, call him on it. Don't act like a coward and cheat, you are just stooping to their level.

    If there are no line judges to call the balls in/out, it is not important enough to cheat on calls. My integrity is worth more than some random USTA match. Just let it go.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
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  29. Jim A

    Jim A Professional

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    I just aim my overheads at them....
     
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  30. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I'm surprised a mark on a clay court is unconvincing to you. Integrity is one thing, sticking up for yourself is another. I did not lose a wink of sleep that night.
     
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  31. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I have a hunch you were raised Catholic. :)

    Yeah but...what if you do a "make up" call, and then notice a large group had just started watching? They don't know the history, they're just going to whisper, "Look at how this guy cheats!" You could be the one getting a bad reputation. There are some risks that go with doing this.
     
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  32. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    You are checking the mark during changeovers and not when it happened right away. How do you even know for sure that is the correct mark?

    One person's "sticking up for yourself" is another person's hooking.
     
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  33. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The rule (for self-called matches) is: "If you don't see it clearly out then it's in. You should be happy to play with people who live by this.
     
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  34. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely... but I thought we all played like this... am I wrong?
     
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  35. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    If you are going to do this you need to give them 2 points back... giving them one point does not give them back the one point advantage they lost. Sometimes you just have to accept upsetting your partner by making the right call, almost everyone I play with is willing to accept that they may have made a mistake on a line call.
     
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  36. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    You're reading the same threads and posts I am. There's obviously a lot of people with 'alternate' views of what this means! :)
     
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  37. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    It probably was out... but they could not make a 100% determination... if you clearly see the ball out of play... you have the option to correct your opponent and give them the point. You are not obligated... but you have the option... and I think how you handle this says a lot about you as a person.
     
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  38. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    The court was swept clean before we started playing. Do you play on clay? You weren't there Mr. Integrity.
     
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  39. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    Well I always suspected this... put who knew there were this many that felt this way and so strongly about it.
     
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  40. bcart1991

    bcart1991 Semi-Pro

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    If it gets to the point that I'm giving a "make-up call", it's already far beyond anyone thinking I'm the one who's initiated the cheating.
     
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  41. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

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    In a tournament semi-final, I had a guy hook me twice on break points. In the next game, he hit the ball in the center of the court 4 times in a row and I called every one of them out. And then I said we can keep doing this all day, but the next time you better call it in if it is within 3 inches of the line or I'll take an entire set from you. I won the last set 6-0 because he lost it. He knew that he couldn't hook anymore and knew it was the only way he could win. Later in the year he was banned for a year from USTA tournaments because someone else complained and a USTA official watched him do it repeatedly. From my experience they will continue to do it until they can't get away with it any more, and only you can stop them.
     
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  42. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Per the code:

    Based on that, I'd say that it is more than an option - if you clearly see your ball land out then you should say so.
     
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  43. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    Well I agree with this, but it is clear that many on this board do not follow these principles, but at what point do you define seeing it clearly out? ie... as stated earlier someone was sure a ball was out... but their opponent insists it hit the line. A discussion that took place during a court change. In my case I would have addressed it immediately... "are you sure the ball looked out", and then abide by my opponents final call.

    My point is that in many occasions we are in a better position to see the line calls than our opponents, be it a sideline, a baseline or a serviceline. But the bottomline is that the final decision I have always felt belonged to my opponent, I will provide my input if I feel the ball is out... but I leave it up to them if they want to accept the point.
     
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  44. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    I agree - the person responsible for making the call has the final say. My only responsibility is to let them know that I clearly saw my ball land out.
     
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  45. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    You know, if I did this ("Are you sure, the ball looked out") every time I thought my ball was out I think my opponents would tire of it very quickly.

    There are many, many occasions where I hit a ball and think it is going out or even see it out. I will often say something to my partner like, "Wow, was that really in?" Many partners, teammates and pros have scolded me for this, so I try not to do it. My partners have a point: My opponent calling a line far away from me is tasked with making that call because they are closer to it and are watching it because they know they are supposed to.

    Now, I just play to their call unless the ball is obviously out. Funny thing, though. When the ball is obviously out, my opponents are quite diligent about calling it out with gusto.
     
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  46. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    Not to question your honesty but I find it interesting that balls that look out to you... you do not question. Yet in another thread you started "Changed Call: Let Or Loss Of Point?", where you may have bullied your opponent into changing her call.


    Do you feel there is some inconsistancy in the way you handle line calls? Since when you feel it is OUTyou stay quiet, yet if you feel it is IN you challenge your opponents calls?

    Do not get me wrong you have every right to do this... but to me it seems to lack a little consistancy... If you are going to accept your opponents calls... then accept them all not only when it gives you the point.

    And like I have said before... when is OUT obviously OUT, for me if I see a space between the ball and the line... to me that is OUT.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
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  47. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    No, I don't feel there is any inconsistency in how I handle calls. I don't see any merit in your argument. It is patently silly to say you have to accept all of your opponents' calls or none of them.
     
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  48. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    My point is that you admittedly accepted shots that would favour you (ones you believe were OUT but were called IN)... and then question those that do not (ones you saw as IN but were called OUT).

    I am sure many people would feel this would make a person a scrappy player fighting for every point, but for me it just seems inconsistant. Maybe I have an over sensitive feel of fair play... if I trust my opponent to call a ball as being IN I should trust them to make an OUT call as well. And that they would make the same call whether it was the first point in a match or the last. Naive for sure... but this is the premise I bring to every match...
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
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  49. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    You seem to be ignoring the fact that most clearly out balls are called out by my opponents, often with gusto and a high five.

    You also seem to be ignoring the fact that many balls will be close calls, and on those I accept my opponent's call either way because they are in better position and it is their call to make.

    You also seem to be ignoring the fact that, in rare situations, my opponent will be in horrible position when I am in good position (and her partner didn't see the ball). In that situation, I feel morally correct in questioning the out call and The Code backs me up on that.
     
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  50. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

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    I must play a different game... I don't cheer or celebrate after an opponent makes an error... it must be an american thing. I rarely cheer when I make a good shot.

    It is always their call to make....

    It is always their call to make... and hopefully if they didn't honestly see the ball as being OUT they would not make the call. As for the CODE... well you know what I think of that... in the end... it is still your opponents call to make.

    Am I driving you crazy yet...???
     
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