mandates ruined a good thing

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by ga tennis, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    It would have been so nice to see our top 10s get to compete against each other this year.Our top 10 year olds are way too good for quickststart.Every top 10 year old in Georgia is playin up in the 12s.The problem with that is all level 4and5s are green dot?The level 3 tournaments are 16 draw so it makes it really difficult for a second year 10 to get in the draw.I know people are gonna say she should have played 10 and under tournaments to get her ranking up but at this point she is WAY too advanced for that.Im just still pissed off!
     
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  2. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    The whole thing is convoluted, but let's not forget that BITD, it was only 18 and under, and 15 and under. If you were younger, you knew that you would lose, unless you were great, but then, everyone developed their games. No one worried about protecting their rankings. When I was playing, my coach would swear that things were better for tennis development and kids psychological health, and I could not argue since I grew-up with 12s-18s.
     
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  3. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    I'm not as pissed as I was, I have calmed down a lot. Time heals all. My Daughter played in the SoFla Regional G12s and hit very well. She was the youngest in the Draw (9). I was told that by a USTA Florida person she should be able to compete in a year. I saw her hit more Drop Shots/Slice backhands and swinging volleys than a good number of seeded girls. A little stronger, more mature and she'll be there.

    Based on what I saw I do fell better that what the USTA Florida folks told me may be more right thatn I first suspected. BUT I would have liked to have continued in the 10s.
     
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  4. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    it is funny,,,, we are complaining and know that tournaments too early for young kids will affect their strokes and bring about bad habits yet we still want them to get into tournaments early so they can bring home the trophy and be #1.

    Have you played in a green dot U12 tournament? :confused:

    what are the top 10 year olds doing? do like them
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
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  5. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I didnt put her in but a couple of tournaments last year.Now her and her coach want her to play tournaments.He wants to see her compete this year.She is gonna play level 3 and up 12s and level 4 in the 14s.She played one green dot tournament and won it.That proved NOTHING because none of the good kids play green dot.Our top 10s are playin the 12s I just wished they could have played each other in the 10s.
     
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  6. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    I think the conversation is not about Trophies and #1, its more about these kids have VERY VERY GOOD strokes. So not much can be improved with Green Ball mandated events. Training and competing with Yellowball is were they should be. The kids that should be on Green Ball/10U aren't ready for this level of competition. I can say I would take my 9yo and feel pretty confident with her playing a kid (girl or boy) that has trained on Green Ball for a while she would take them apart.

    Our Top 20 Girls 10s and the Top 25 or so Boy 10s have been playing 12s for ~ 6 Months. Several 14s :shock:

    https://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/rankings_new/rankinghome.aspx?Section=15&Division=G9#
     
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  7. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Some of the top 10 and under kids are playing in the 10s in GA. There are only 3 who are in the top 10 in the boys who are not aging up in the next 6 months. Most of those are playing mostly 12s now.
     
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  8. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    it is simple if a 10 year old kid is not good enough to get into level 3 tournaments then kid needs more work, green or whatever

    here in NE you can still play low level 7 yellow at U12, and you do not need points to get in, anyone can play. Maybe GA needs this type of formate:oops: I would say


    again what are her peers doings you should be doing, if they are playing in the 12 with whatever you should be as well and can play them under any name. it proves that she is playing with kids of her ability and age, call it whatever with whatever. if you can not bear the green then wait out another year, nothing wrong with that, TCf does not believe in girls competing until U12, she would still have two more years to play in the U12, even if you wait it out another year. it seems someone is in a hurry to get her competing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
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  9. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Sure you can in GA. The bottom two levels are 4 and 5. Anyone can get in those. Of course with the new rules you will be playing green ball or green dot ball. My son can get in the 12s southern level 3 tournaments because of his ranking in the 10s. The southern section has decided that southern level 3's will be two draws of 16 and play will be on Saturday and Sunday only. This is so kids miss less school. 28 of the players come from the highest rankings in the 12s who apply. The last 4 come from the highest ranked players in the 10s who are in the top 40 in the south. Honestly the green ball is good for my son now. He is 9. We try to play orange, green, and yellow. They all have a purpose.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
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  10. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    anyone should be able to play yellow in the 12's
     
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  11. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Actually GA level 3 is yellow ball. I think those are usually open to anyone.
     
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  12. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    According to GA you need certain amount of points and the draw is limited where you might not qualify so in reality they are not open to anyone, I could be wrong
     
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  13. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    NONE of the top 10 and under girls in GA are playing the 10s.If you think any of the girls playing in the 10 and under division are top 10s you are so wrong!
     
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  14. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    there are other things in life other than the top 10 players in U10, there are hundreds and thousands of other U10 players who like the idea and are playing U10's it is not the end of the world. The inbetween generation of 9-10 year olds that are advance most of them are complaining ( I am one of them and I am not complaining). The elite 10 year olds are already play top U12 tournaments with no problem. By next year the complaints would die down, I hope since these Jr;s will be good enough to handle U12 regulation players.
     
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  15. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I am not as well informed about the girls. I can only speak for the boys.
     
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  16. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    good point, GA only think Jr tennis evolves around girls, because he has a girl, Same here, I only think about the boys because I have two boys. Well we need to take a look at the whole picture, not just one.
     
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  17. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    That is the same advice they probably gave parents when the USTA dissolved all competition for the 12's a few years back.

    Boy, that was such a wise move for them to dissolve all competition.

    I mean did the kids really need to play?
     
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  18. LMK5

    LMK5 New User

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    If a policy is termed "not the end of the world," it probably isn't a good plan.

    Pretending that all 10 year olds need to play with the green ball and no 11 year old does is nuts, but maybe that's the only way they could force the change?

    Modifying the policy to allow green ball for lesser skilled players of all ages, while allowing better players to continue on their yellowball path is what's sorely needed.

    Stay tuned.
     
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  19. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Its sad how they did the 10s.And when clueless people say play up in the 12s there is the problem.In GA level 4 and 5 12s tournaments are green ball.The good kids dont need green ball!!!!Next problem is trying to get into level 3 tournaments when they only let 16 in the draw.My daughter is in a bad situation thanks to mandates.
     
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  20. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Florida has 11U Green Ball

    The Draws have been HORRIBLE. Very little turnout. Now that could be because it cost ~$50 and is not a RR.
     
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  21. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    GA you need to move to NE :) sorry that your kid is in a bad situation,

    like i said what are her peers doing? do the same, if they are playing green go for it, if they are sitting on the sidelines for a year do the same thing, practice practice practice or organize your own tournaments. or come up here we have plenty of academies and competition.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
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  22. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    that is what we have in NE section, yet again NE comes out as a trail blazer, we were in 2011, and now 2012 :)
     
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  23. LMK5

    LMK5 New User

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    My guess is that they felt that if they didn't force all 10s to play green ball, then no one would. They don't care that many advanced 10 year olds have been playing at an advanced level for years with the yellow ball.

    When we taught our kids to ride a bike we put on training wheels. Once they gained balance and confidence, we took the training wheels off and never used them again. Not the USTA, their attitude is that all 10s shall use training wheels.
     
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  24. LMK5

    LMK5 New User

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    Playing up to escape the green ball may be halted soon. Here's a story: My daughter had won a novice tournament early in 2011, so she got an invitation to play in a "novice master" event on 1/28/2012. The application clearly stated what age groups were available and what the birthday cutoffs were for eligibility.

    My 10 year old, who will be 11 on 2/2/12, checked off the box for the 12s. She didn't want to play in the 10s because she has never played with the green ball and was also now playing satellite tournaments. After I sent in the registration form, I got an email from the SCTA saying they put her in the 10s. No explanation. When I emailed back that I wanted her in the 12s, the reply was that they wanted her to play in her "natural age division" or she couldn't enter. When I followed up with a phone call the representative wouldn't budge. She felt it was her right to change the rules of the event as she wished.

    The fact that this rule wasn't on the application didn't matter to the SCTA representative. It didn't matter that my daughter would be playing up and no one would be harmed. It didn't matter that a 10 year old would be disappointed. It didn't matter that the tournament would get one less participant and one less entry fee. It only mattered that enough kids were artificially forced to play in a division that they didn't want to play in.

    That's the residue of rigid mandates. If they don't get enough green ball entries, they will force you to play in your "natural age division" so they can later quote great participation statistics for the quickstart program.
     
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  25. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    this is all foreign to me. In NE things are different, any 8 9 10 year old can play 12 if they wish
     
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  26. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    USTA rules for Novice/Rookie is they must play their natural age group until they achieve a certain number of points. Now that they have no Points for 10s don't know how they enforce that.
     
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  27. LMK5

    LMK5 New User

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    That is also true here in SoCal, but based on my experience with this latest entry they may be cracking down. It will be a PR nightmare for the USTA if quickstart participation is weak.
     
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  28. LMK5

    LMK5 New User

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    That's not the case here in SoCal. There are no points for Novice level wins. In fact they don't even show Novice results in tennisLink. Kids could always play up if they want to. Quickstart may put an end to that for 10 year olds.
     
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  29. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Yea part of the lack in uniformity between sections. I was told that is a national rule rarely inforced in most sections.

    http://www.florida.usta.com/Juniors-Pages/Rookie-Tournament-Description-2010/


    1.   Administration of the Tournament

    a.    Rookie tournaments are designed for and specifically limited to new players, recreational players, and players with few if any standing points under the Florida point system. 

    b.    The events are not open to non-residents, academy or other players with advanced skills, or any player ranked in ANY DIVISION in the top 200 of the Standings List in the    Boy’s and Girl’s 10s or top 400 in the Boy’s and Girl’s 12s, 14s, 16s, and 18s. 

    c.    Playing up in an older age division will not be allowed as all players are required to play in their natural age division.

    d.    Maximum two (2) day sanction with an emphasis on completing the event in one day when possible.
     
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  30. INTO10s

    INTO10s New User

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    Level 3 are a 32 draw in the southern region for 2012, they are just split into 2 sets of 16 and played separately.
     
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  31. itenispro

    itenispro New User

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    Playing up for 10's and 12's is going to get banned. Official rules will come out after March conference. Learn to except the new ball.
     
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  32. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Maybe by region because Florida has 11U, also what do you do with 10's that have National Points or Ranked Higher in 12s than 12s?

    Either way - this is a fight for TD's unless its free (even if it is) the draws will continue to shrink. Loss of more $$$$$.
     
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  33. dbordel

    dbordel New User

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    In Ga, the state level 3's are 16 draws. You are referring to southern level tournaments. I think gatennis was referring to state level 3's
     
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  34. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    #34
  35. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    ^^^ oh I love this guy bruce, I gave him an idea oh how to handle all these different colored balls in his first video. Now he supports these balls but not the mandates. I did not know the LTA was so strict about the ages. In the US, the rules are more relaxed. RULES ( foot fault exact size of racquet) should not be that enforced in U10 anyway, not sure why the folks in the UK are complicating this even more:confused:
     
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  36. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    I wouldn't say that I'm a specialist in early tennis development but I believe that the fallacy lies in the fact that the mandate is viewed as the be-all, end-all cure. To me, it's just a tool. All the other factors (parenting, training, mental, attitude, etc) need to come together to produce champions. You can get 10,000 kids into tennis through ROG but if they are poisoned by poor attitude from parents, coaches and the powers-that-be, we'll be in the same boat as we are today...just more average (and disgruntled) parents, players and coaches.
     
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  37. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    agree looking forward to your "well-researched views from outside contributors on this topic"
     
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  38. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    We are as well. If you would like to participate on either side, please feel free to contact us directly and we can put you in touch with the lead contributor. Thanks
     
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  39. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I live in Georgia and my 9 year boy can get in the southern level 3s because of his 10s ranking in the south. Like it or not you have to do what is needed. We anticipated this happening.

    Southern level 3 tournaments in GA are 2 draws of 16. 28 spots for that age division and 4 from the younger division who are ranked in the top 40 in the south. GAtennis put your daughter in some GA level 3 tournaments like the Polar Bear in Macon on Feb 18th. She can play regular ball in those and get some points to help get in the southern level 3s.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  40. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    Well that clears things up, see we anticipated this move was going to happen. The folks who did not are not so fortunate, reminds of the three little pigs story.:) She can even enter level 3 if she likes to travel and waits on the waiting list and gets lucky break to get in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  41. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    She can enter Ga level 3 right now. She just cannot get in southern level 3 tournaments until her ranking is higher. Ga level 3 are regular ball tournaments.
     
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