Marcelo Rios worthy of Hall of Fame?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Gonzalito17, May 9, 2013.

  1. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    I agree with you 100% but the standards have been lowered considering whats has already been accepted and there is no going back.....unless you start taking back HOF status to those who are currently in. Its kind of like they opened pandoras box.
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    And why not mighty Greek God Bagdhatis or New Moctezuma Nalbandian?
    After all, they are the terrible and legendary enemies of sun eraser Roher Federer
     
  3. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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  4. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Good talented nice players but they never stood at the top of the ATP mountain and reigned supreme like Rios did. 15 years after they retire they will probably not be remembered as fondly as Rios is now and always will be.

    Doubt there will be serious discussions in 2030 on tenniswarehouse about Nalbandian and Bagdhatis going to Newport. )
     
  5. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  6. big ted

    big ted Hall of Fame

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    with no gs title, no davis cup, i dont think so..esp considering his attitude
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Rios reigned supreme""!!!!
    Oh my God, now I heard it all
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That Rios worshipping enhances Kodes chances for GOAT
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Rios promoted to Hall of....Shame
    If there was a HOF for journeymen it should be renamed after him
     
  10. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Orson Welles and James Dean only made a few movies yet they made quite an impression in a short time on filmmaking and Hollywood.

    Mike Tyson was only really a great fighter for a few years, 1986-89, then he became a shell of himself.

    I consider Rios to be more in this category of legend. No doubt Rios is a legend, like Welles and Dean and Mike Tyson.
     
  11. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Your spot on with this view. He was at the top for a short while but his impact was pretty notable. You still have ex players on the tour who talk about him being the most talented. You still have discusions like this one pop up where people just like to talk to others and remember how unique he actually was.

    Thats the best way to descibe him IMO. He was a unique individual both personality wise and game style. One of this most interesting players we have had in this game. Not really a glory hound and would shun the spotlight but at the same time you couldnt take your eyes off him. Rios was a very special player. People will still be talking about him 20 years from now.
     
  12. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I wasn't exactly arguing for Rios' inclusion. I was simply agreeing that achieving No. 1 is a monumental achievement for which I could understand fans and commentators making an argument for a player's inclusion. I'm simply saying "you have a point" to people who point out his No. 1 ranking as a possible reason for HOF inclusion. I personally probably wouldn't vote to include him, but I don't think the notion is of Rios in the HOF is THAT unfounded, and I wouldn't be particularly upset if he actually did get in. And, as magnut points out, do we compare any player's HOF worth based on the standards we think the HOF should utilize, or do we recognize the existing standards for the HOF in determining whether it's "fair" if a player is included or excluded.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Mike Tyson was utterly dominant in boxing when Kevin Rooney was his trainer. The undisputed best boxer in the world from 1986 to 1988. How can he be compared to Marcelo Rios? Rios was world number 1 for a total of 6 weeks, of course, but won no majors.
     
  14. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Mike Tyson Forever

    He came from nothing and now he leaves the sport he ruled with nothing. But in between Mike Tyson ruled the boxing kingdom like no man ever has or ever will.
    King Tyson captivated the world with his power and precision, his unstoppable determination and fury. And let’s not leave out intelligence and psychological strengths. You don’t become the best in the world at something by just muscle and power, it takes a psychological superiority. He made the rest look like incompetents. That’s how great he really was.
    From 1986-1988 he was absolutely unbeatable. No man stood a chance. But he was too young, just barely out of his teens. His creators and mentors rushed him too fast. He was not equipped to handle such enormous success, fame and fortune. The vultures came in and picked him apart. They deceived him and lied to him and tricked him. But King Tyson also made many mistakes on his own and slowly but surely, the great Tyson Empire eventually crumbled.
    He came back after the jail term but it was never the same. More money was made, more money was stolen from him, more money was generously given away. But the inferno inside the young Mike Tyson was gone. He just wasn’t the same fighter.
    They tried to exploit him one more time last summer and we saw back then the fire was just a flicker as Danny Williams KO’ed the once mighty Mike Tyson.
    Again they tried to salvage Mike Tyson’s career – to help him get out of debt – and of course, to line their own pockets again. And now we saw on Saturday night, there is absolutely nothing left inside of Mike Tyson as a fighter.
    He lost to a palooka who isn’t even really a fighter. Ali lost to Berbick, Holmes lost to Tyson, but Tyson losing to McBride is a tragedy.
    The whole story of Mike Tyson is like some kind of weird tragedy. I guess it really is true, the bigger they are, they harder they fall.
    We have to wonder, where will Mike Tyson go from here. Will he be able to live being broke? Will he one day walk into Canastota to a thunderous ovation? Will he get work as a TV commentator? Will all the people he helped to make into millionaires come back now to help him? Could he be interested in doing some kind of reality TV show for a couple of seasons, like The Osbournes or Paris Hilton? Let’s all hope something works out well for the great Mike Tyson.
    He was one of the greatest, maybe even the greatest. For how important height and size are in boxing today, look at what Mike Tyson was able to accomplish in the sport of giants with such a small stature. He overcame a humble beginning and juvenile delinquent childhood to become one of the most successful and famous people in the world.
    He overcame being cheated out of his fortune, he overcame the defamation of what he still claims were false accusations of ****, he overcame the rockbottom misery of the Holyfield and Lewis defeats to that he is now still a revered figure in so many people’s eyes. You have to admit, there is still a dignity and humility and a likeableness about Mike Tyson, despite all of his bad moments.
    Mike Tyson was a champion. Mike Tyson will always be a champion. Mike Tyson forever.
     
  15. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Tyson's former trainer also compared Tyson's greatness to a comet, very quick but devastating flash of domination. Tyson was unlike anything we ever saw before in boxing, so explosive, so powerful, yet also a sense of vulnerability at the same time. Such a misunderstood and captivating figure. Much like Rios who was also misunderstood and intriguing in his own ways.

    BTW, Tyson began to fizzle when he was tricked by Robin Givens, Rooney's influence is very overrated. Cus D'Amato was the true creator of Tyson, Rooney was there for the ride. Rooney was also an underling of Damato. Tyson was deeply embarrassed by Givens who exploited him like the gold digger she was. Tyson truly loved her. He was never the same after they divorced. She was the first person to ever show a weakness in Tyson, when they were interviewed on Barbra Walters. After that, Tyson began to erode in the ring, he began to get hit more and his style changed. Tyson even admitted in the James Toback film "Tyson" that Givens took something out of him, out of his heart. he was never the same after that.
     
  16. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    I think the turning point for Rios was getting to No. 1. Once he got there, a fire seemed to go out in him. He even said he preferred the role as the spoiler, the underdog. He just wasn't equipped to be the face of the sport and sell the sport to fans and media. He was most happy between the lines playing, not interacting with fans, media and sponsors and all that stuff. Rios did the impossible, he got to the top. He stayed there for a short while, dazzled the world with his brilliance, then slowly faded away into Bolivion lol
     
  17. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Cus d'Mato was a huge influence on Tyson, of course, his father figure and mentor, but he passed away in 1985, before Tyson had hit the prime of his career. Kevin Rooney was a huge influence on Tyson's boxing ability. Watch his fight with Larry Holmes in 1988. Tyson was messing about in the first couple of rounds. Rooney tells him off, to use the head movements and get serious, and Tyson brutally knocks Holmes out in the fourth round. That's the only time that Holmes was ever knocked out in his career. After Rooney gets fired, Tyson's mobility and head movement had declined considerably. Tyson was more of a head-hunter after Rooney went, looking for the big knockout punch in an impatient manner. I think Richie Giachetti got Tyson boxing pretty well again, but then Tyson ended up in jail.

    Now, regarding Marcelo Rios, it's much harder to tell how much of an influence the coaches had on him because Rios was such an enigmatic figure at times. Did the likes of Larry Stefanki and Nick Bollettieri make him a better player? Bollettieri has said that Rios was a hard physical worker in training and in doing the tennis, which seems to suggest that Rios' moods were caused by all the other responsibilities that come with being a tennis professional.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  18. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Didn't Rios dump his girlfriend (Patricia Larrain) and coach (Larry Stefanki) in one fell swoop soon after becoming world number 1? He certainly seemed to do the unexpected.
     
  19. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Yeah but he got there. Best tennis player on the planet. Rafter once said that his week at #1 was the greatest week of his life. I guess after working your whole life to be the best you can be there is no better feeling than being the best there is....even if it is for a short while. I cant imagine how Muster must have felt after all the grief he went through just to try and stay motivated to keep playing despite a horific injury for a professional athlete.

    Could there be a better feeling? Maybe beating cancer? I dont know....hope I dont ever have to find out either.

    To date the best feeling I have ever had was the day my first son was born. I think I was on cloud nine for 6 months. Nothing bothered me, no stress about the future, no regreting past decisions, nothing. Best feeling in the world. Second to having a child I think is every time your child comes up and give you a hug....its just a great feeling.
     
  20. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    That and injuries. His body just didnt seem to hold up. He was training hard. It seemed like everything bad just started happening at once. I am speculating, but maybe he just wanted some normalcy again.

    I think his girlfriend dumped him though.
     
  21. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Did she? Oh, my mistake then.
     
  22. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    I think so its been a while and I am not into the off court stuff as much. i remember hearing a commentator talk about how he was caught on camera at a club with another woman and she freaked out. Then something about him going on public television in Chile to apologize and try to win her back to no avail. She was some sort of public celebrity before she hooked up with Rios. Maybe a news reporter or something.

    One big problem with the whole Rios thing is Nike and the tour. They really screwed up the Marketing with him. They should have marketed him as Tennis's #1 badboy. Instead they thought they could fight with him and change the way he conducted himself...in short change his personality. Marcello did not mince words and certainly was not scripted (unlike todays players). When he said something you knew exactly how he felt. Most of the bad rap came from reporters etc. I have yet to here a story where he talk dishoneslty ill about another player....he just didnt talk at all! I never saw him go out of his way to hurt anyone he just wanted to be left alone.

    I have seen recent interviews whith him and he comes accross as a pretty nice guy. Having kids has a tendancy to mellow people out and I think Rios is just the type of person that has become comfortable with his life. He is actually a lot like Sampras personality wise.

    This HOF stuff probably wouldnt interest him right now anyways. I think maybe in 20 years its something he might show up for but I am not so sure he would welcome the attention. I am still kind of suprised he was willing to do a book. I still think he loves the game itself (as he always has) he is just not real outward about it. I have a lot of matches from his time on tour and he is in the stands quite a bit watching other players matches.

    Misunderstood, mismarketed resulting in some mistreatment by the media which then resulted in him putting up a wall and not wanting anything to do with anyone. I find him interesting and unique off the court in that many #1 players become attracted by the limelight and end up attention *****s looking to make waves all the time screaming "look at me"(Conners, McEnroe, Courier, Becker, Agassi and yes Even Sampras) but Rios very much wanted absolute seclusion from the limelight. He was kind of like a really shy version of Lendl until you pushed to far and pissed him off. Then he threw the walls up and went silent or barked at you a little.

    Compare him with guys like Edberg, Rafter, Wilander who were so nice they would give a lot of those around them room for error and still be considerate enough to be sensitive and you end up with a stark contrast.

    The tennis media can except a lot of characters but they cant deal with someone who wont talk to them. Hence they need to "create" something to talk about....IE Rios is rude, Rios is mean, Rios is a jerk, Rios wont talk, Rios eats babies, Rios is the antichrist etc. etc.

    Thank god he is not #1 today. The media is 10 times worse now. He would probably be in jail for hitting a reporter that wouldnt back off.
     
  23. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Wasn't that the woman from Costa Rica who would later become his first wife, Giuliana Sotela, around 2000? It was in a Paris disco where he was seductively dancing with another woman. Sotela dumped him, later took him back and married him, and they had a daughter together. They later divorced. Their daughter, Constanza, played in some junior girls' tennis tournaments. I don't know if she's still playing. If she becomes a professional, we could see her on the WTA Tour by around 2020.

    LOL. Yeah, it really annoyed the media that Rios could be so rude and impolite to them. Rios, in turn, didn't care a jot about what they thought. I remember Mary Carillo commentating during that 1998 Miami final that Rios had against Agassi, and Carillo said that Rios would have to change as a person now that he's about to become world number 1. But Rios didn't change, Rios didn't change at all. He was the same as ever in continuing to make the tennis media feel very uneasy towards him.

    Probably. He was involved in those sort of incidents during his career.
     
  24. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Thats interesting. I didnt know he hooked back up with his girlfriend.

    As far as Carillo goes I have a huge amount of respect for that woman. She is my alltime favorite woman in tennis. She loves the game and has a good vibe for what is happining and how its declining. I really think she was exactly the type of personality Rios would have be good with as she is the type of analist thet looks intrinsically at players and talks to them on there level.

    She might have misjudged Rios a little bit though. When your used to dealing with Andre the clown and an arrogant Sampras its easy to see how Rios could throw you for a loop.

    I have that match and watch it once in a while so I know exactly what your talking about in here commentary. She speaks about Rios needing to be responsible to the sport...whatever that means. I guess she is talking about giving interviews and letting the media into his private life. Its possible that after dealing with so many top players that Mary could not understand that Rios just wasnt interested in becoming a media star. The media just seemed to take it personally that Rios didnt want to deal with them.

    In that same match it shows footage of Marcello visiting a hospital for sick children. He is talking to a staff member and giving a baby a little rub on the cheek. Kind of revealing and showed that Rios deep down was just a big softy and not the Monster people were then and later led to believe. Why he was like he was (so guarded) I dont know. Maybe he got burned a few times and just became really careful about who he trusted.

    I always found it hilarious that Stephanki and him got along so well because Larry comes off like a used car salesman. Marcello must have had some pretty good chemestry with him because they were on and off for a while before they finally split for good. My guess is that Marcello grew tired of Larry trying to mold Rios's personality towards the media and the fans. They probably would have been together longer if he didnt get to #1. Larry was pretty good friends with the family and everyone got along. Larry seems like a genuinly nice guy once you realize hes being honest and not trying to sell you a buick.

    He was actually pretty good budies with some of the tour guys. I know him and Henman were pals so that should say something as Tim was known to be a stand up guy.
     
  25. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Beautiful inspiring words Magnut,
     
  26. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    If I remember correctly, Rios cheated on Sotela, then she dumped him and then he tearfully tried to win her back, which he did, he later married her when she was about 17 or 18, they started the relations when she was 13 or 14 I heard. The daughter they had Constanza, is about 12 now, she played Orange Bowl two years ago in 12s division when she was 10 and lost first round. She's a lefty too, Bollettieri said in the Rios book she is excellent, no, she's better than excellent. She used to train in Bradenton full time. Sotela still lives there part time. They also had her training privately in Costa Rica with coaching expenses of about $100,000 a year. Marcelo was not happy that she was playing big tournaments at such a young age but Sotela was calling the shots. Constanza was said to have knee troubles and wore a wrap on her knee. I saw her once at NBTA and she looked silky smooth like her father, similar form.
     
  27. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Thats neat. I think I would have to watch her if she made it pro....and I never every watch the WTA. I always thought the female version of Rios would play like Hingis.
     
  28. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Giuliana Sotela was 15 when they first met and 17 when they got married.

    The girlfriend I was talking about with 1998 Miami was a different woman, i.e. Patricia Larrain. She was in the audience next to Larry Stefanki watching Rios win 1998 Miami and become world number 1.

    Regarding Marcelo's unhappiness about her playing so young, we must remember that Marcelo himself didn't start playing until he was 11, which is late for a professional player who reached the top level in the sport.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  29. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    11 years old....thats just rediculous. Start at 11 and world #1 at what ?early 20s. ....crazy.
     
  30. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    World number 1 at 22. Yes, it's amazing. He was a number 1 junior player too, at the age of 17.
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Correction...I thought I had heard it all...
     
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He had no answer to Evander Holifield strategy...yes, very smart that Tyson...well, unless you consider bitting ears a strategy...
     
  33. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Not sure how she plays, when I saw her she was doing drills and hitting volleys and baseline shots from feeds from a coach with about five other girls. Also saw her practicing serves. She could evolve into a Hingis type.

    Hope she is still playing. Last time I saw her results in FL tourneys they weren't that impressive. That was over a year ago. Not sure of the latest results. Or if she is even playing tourneys.
     
  34. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Kiki, the version of Tyson that boxed Holyfield was a shell of a shell. He first became a shell after Givens got through with him. Then he became another shell after he lost to Douglas. And then he became another shell of that shell after jail, when all of his fights were set ups against safe opponents. In boxing like tennis, you do not improve beating opponents you know you will beat. Holyfield did not beat the prime version of Tyson. I don't think he could have last six rounds with prime Tyson.
     
  35. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    No. 1 junior, no. 1 ATP and also No. 1 in ATP Champions senior tour. Rios is the only player to be no. 1 for all three I believe.
     
  36. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    If it's really true, it is crazy. Imagine if he started at 2 or 3 like Agassi hitting balloons in the crib.

    25 majors, minimum. lol
     
  37. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Rios is the Late Starter GOAT!

    I think Rafter Started at 9. Theres another real late one I am not sure who though. Pioline maybe?

    I am just suprised anyone can start that late and make it to the top of the mountain. There is a ton of development in those early years. Physically and mentaly. Rafter was a real workhorse and had a lot of holes in his game early on the tour. Rios pretty much had it from the get go. The only real difference between when he first came on tour to when he was #1 was his comfort at net. His serve was a little better as well. No major changes though. So much raw talent in that little guy.
     
  38. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Didnt they kick Rios off the seniors tour because he was beating everyone so badly?
     
  39. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    For a guy to come onto the tour and just blow out a prime Agassi in straight sets in the Miami final at age 22 in 98 like Rios did was, as the Eurosport commentator said, "One of the finest performances he's ever seen on a tennis court." To make Agassi look almost helpless was phenomenal. Rios had many extraordinary performances like that, and a few horror shows too tho )
     
  40. Gonzalito17

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    He dominated the one year and then came back and played the next year but only a few events and his form was not good at all, in the book it said some of his performances, like the one in Portugal, were so bad it "looked like Rios hadn't touched a racquet in months." But that was also the tournament when Rios found out his third wife was pregnant and he was said to be really happy. That's the time he did the video interview with the plane flying in the air in the background, Rios was really friendly and happy in that interview, you saw a side of Rios you never saw before. His hair was also very short and spiky. He really changed a lot.

    His level of play really declined after that stellar first year on Champions Tour. At one match he lost to Gilad Bloom in Buenos Aires like 60 62. For whatever reason(s), Rios seemed to lose interest in competing.

    After his first year on Champions Tour even Federer was saying he thought Rios should come back to play the regular tour, Federer wanted to see Rios back. He thought he still had "it." But Rios said he wasn't interested in making that huge commitment and traveling so much anymore.
     
  41. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Wouldn't matter. His issues weren't technical - was all between his ears. And thus, if he'd started that early he may have had his meltdown before he even made the ATP.

    Hadn't heard that. Funny.
     
  42. Crisstti

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    I don't think he's been kicked out of the champions tour. He played in a tournament there was here a while ago... maybe a couple years.

    I think he was kicked out for a while because of a problem he had with McEnroe.

    I think people often underrate (if that's the word) the importance injuries had in the derailing of his career. He has some kind of back surgery after he retired in some moment, which he hadn't wanted to have done when he was playing. He later said said it was a huge mistake not having had it then, since it worked very well and solved a lot of his problems.

    Yeah, Hingis was like the female version of Ríos.

    Yeah, you're right it was Patricia Larrain, a model I believe. I think they were very close to breaking up already by the time he became number one.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  43. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    I think people often underrate (if that's the word) the importance injuries has in the derailing of his career. He has some back surgery after he retired in some moment, which he hadn't wanted to have done when he was playing. He later said said it was a huge mistake to having had it then, since it worked very well and solved a lot of his problems.

    Good point Chrisstti. In the Rios book a Chilean journalist said that he thought playing too much, regular tour schedule, exos, Davis Cup, was too much and he had it figured out that Rios played like ten tournaments more than Sampras and Agassi, and that Rios did not give his body enough time to heal properly. Also the travel from Chile is longer because it's so far out of the way to so many of the tour events. Eventually because of too much play Rios body had an explosion, as he called it. Combine the body breaking down with drinking alcohol, which Rios imbibed in, it was a bad combination as alcohol is like poison to the body.

    Agree, it was a combination of things that caused the deterioration of Rios career at young age and multiple injuries of legs, abdomen, groin, knee hampered Rios abilities to perform. He only had a short time of strong physicality. His injuries began shortly after became no. 1.
     
  44. Crisstti

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    I'm not sure how you understood my point since my post was a mess, lol. Anyway, yeah, injuries played a big part. I was trying to say he didn't want to have surgery for an apparently chronic back problem. A while after he had retired, he ended up having the surgery anyway and I remember him saying in some interview how he regretted not having had it done while he still was playing.
     
  45. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Rios did some back exercises instead. In the end, he got very frustrated and fed up with them because the pain wouldn't go away.
     
  46. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    According to his Wiki entry, that shot was pioneered by Michael Chang:

    "He also introduced the jumping two-handed backhand..."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chang
     
  47. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    So who came up with the shot first?. Anyone knows for sure?. Mustard?.
     
  48. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Chang definitely did the jumping backhand before Rios. I don't know if Chang was the first player to do it, though.
     
  49. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Muster did one handed jumpers. Ivanisevic did two handed jumpers.

    Heck, I am sure people have been doing it since the two hander came about. I have two think at the very least there were a bunch of guys fooling around with it in the 80s. I remember seeing Arancha Sanchez doing it too.
     
  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Jimmy Connors jumped at the air when hitting some of his famous double fisted backhands...
     

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