Martina Navratilova: Shut Up

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by AngieB, May 2, 2013.

  1. PhilStar!

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    I don't think Martina is saying Monica would be the greatest of all time but she would've won more than 24 slams.

    NadalAgassi, when have you ever played against Steffi and Monica?

    I'm sure Martina's judgement holds more weight since, ahem, she played against of them.
     
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  2. Jeff Nuese

    Jeff Nuese New User

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    Angie..I couldn't agree with you more So self absorbed...When she commentates I turn the volume down. Not only does she constantly take all topics during matches back to herself and what she would be doing differently ie better..its shameful..the opposite of Justin Gimestob whos love and passion for the game couldn't be more obvious and refreshing.
     
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  3. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    There are hundreds of female professional players who have played against both Graf and Seles numerous times too, who dont have the obvious agenda and the history of extreme bias and agenda pushing (and indirect shameless self GOAT promoting) that Navratilova have. So with that said unless the majority of those can be found to agree with Martina's comebacks, I have no problem dismissing them and laughing at them.

    Martina saying Seles would have won more than 24 slams has no weight, for the simple fact (along with her obvious enormous bias, proven history of both direct and indirect agenda pushing which she has received countless firings, media attacks and heavy criticsm for, and the sheer insanity of that prediction when she managed only 1 slam playing almost all her 20s) she also predicted Seles would win atleast 10 more majors when she first came back, and she only won 1. She didnt say oh if she wasnt stabbed she would win another 10 more majors, she cant possibly be expected to ever return and dominate again, she said at the time of the 95 U.S Open and again in early 96 that Seles would win atleast 10 more majors and dominate again, period. She also stated emphatically during Wimbledon 96, Hingis would never pass either Graf or Seles and would not be able to be ranked higher than 3rd ever unless no up and comers had emerged by the time both were retired. So her credability in any Seles based predictions has already been flushed down the toilet. Her word on the matter should be taken about as seriously as say Betsy Nagelsen, LOL!
     
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  4. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    While I don't agree with her on this topic and she can seem unnecessarily bitter towards Graf, I do generally like Martina. She has her bad moments, but I like her commentary overall. She was great on NPR this week talking about the Jason Collins story. As with anyone, she has her good points and her bad.
     
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  5. PhilStar!

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    Your criticism of Martina's "agenda" is based on personal opinions.

    Of course there's 100s of women players that played against Steffi and Monica. But they don't have the track record or experience that Martina or Chris Evert or any other great champions have.

    It's like trying to ask an ATP rank 84th player on who is tougher to play, Nadal or Federer.

    Does that player's judgement carry more weight than say a Novak Djokovic or Andy Murray. Of course not.
     
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  6. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    She has more bad points than good, which is why she is relegated to a third rate side commentary network, since that is the only one who would hire her. All the major networks want nothing to do with her. as most have already tried hiring her and firing her almost as fast. Even her old foe Chrissie, another dreadful commentator, is still able to get jobs at places like ESPN and NBC on demand.
     
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  7. PhilStar!

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    I'm not even a Martina Navratilova fan. But I think is still noble of her (as well as other former greats) to stick up for Monica since her place in history was seriously derailed by some lunatic.
     
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  8. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Considering Martina is about 15 years older than both Graf and Seles, and never played either at their mutual (both her and theirs at once) best, and that she is now a huge personal friend of Seles who has been fired, forced to apologize on BBC, and media drilled for her anti Graf (and anti many other players, Williams, etc...) players, yes I would comfortably say there are hundreds of players more qualified to comment on Graf and Seles than her. Anyone who is of their same age group who played both when they were at their mutual best for starters.

    I already posted examples of Martinas various Monica based predictions, and the epic fail they were, and if you dont believe me I will be happy to mail you tapes where she actually said and predicted those absurd things. Pretty much a homeless person could have done better than those, so no to most people she doesnt have any credablity when it comes to Seles predictions, as much as you badly want her to. As you can tell by most of the posts in this thread, most agree with me, and simply laugh off Martina as an idiot, when she makes yet another absurd statement regarding a player she is either fond of or not fond of (in this case Seles winning more than 24 slams which 99.999% of people think is ROTFL ridiculous).
     
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  9. PhilStar!

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    It's not like they were making financial bets on who would win. It's about rallying emotional support for Monica because of the tragedy.
     
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  10. PhilStar!

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    Players and greats make predictions all the time. They don't always come true but you're really missing the point about it.

    Borg thought Soderling could become number 1. But that's obviously a fellow swede looking out for a fellow swede.

    Look at Andy Murray at Wimbledon last year. Look at those failed predictions by everyone who thought he would topple the Great Federer. Much of it was to show support to Murray and give him some emotional boost to win.

    It's just support, it's not like they're placing a million dollar bet on it.
     
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  11. Phoenix1983

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    Navratilova was the GOAT until Graf surpassed her.
     
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  12. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Do you remember that episode on Saturday Night Live when Chris Evert hosted and they did the "Chris-Martina skit"?

    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1289232115417#!/video/video.php?v=1289232115417

    Even back then, everyone got how insanely competitive Navratilova was and even SNL highlighted her ridiculousness.

    AngieB
     
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  13. Phoenix1983

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    Who knows? That's the thing about hypotheticals, we don't know what would have happened.

    Irrespective of whether you consider the Seles case to be "unique" or "a lunatic's act that robbed her of more titles", we have to base our ranking of greats on what actually happened.

    I fundamentally disagree with people who, because they are appalled at the Seles case, think it's OK to say she would have been greater if it hadn't happened, but don't concede that Maureen Connolly would also have been greater if her horse riding accident hadn't happened. And of course Connolly died of cancer aged mid-30s so her life is more tragic than Seles' by any measure.
     
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  14. AngieB

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    Martina Navratilova is the best singles, doubles and mixed doubles women's player of all-time.

    Martina is not the best women's singles player of all-time. GOAT discussions historically regard players singles record. I don't make the rules.

    AngieB
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  15. AngieB

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    Point well taken, indeed. Its good.

    AngieB
     
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  16. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    ...and thanks to Martina never winning the Grand Slam, she would never be a GOAT, hence her early hatred of Graf.
     
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  17. Phoenix1983

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    One does not have to win the Grand Slam to be GOAT.
     
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  18. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    hatred seems like a strong word. Martina certainly has a case for "best women's player" of all time, when you include her doubles career.

    I think it's ok for Martina to dislike Steffi...no one ever said they had to be friends.
     
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  19. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, but Becker--while competitve with Sampras at various events--still eventually acknowledged him as the superior player while both were on tour; he did not skip over him to tap Courier, Edberg, Agassi or anyone else winning majors at the time in the way Martina did regarding Graf. Martina has a long history of depising certain players while she was on tour and in retirement.

    Astoundingly petty.
     
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  20. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Justin Gimelstob is great. :)

    Navratilova has a tendancy to make things personal, even when the subject matter doesn't warrant.

    Navratilova's comments regarding Graf-Seles took a much different tone when she criticized Graf's response to the stabbing. Had Navratilova kept her comments only related to how the stabbing affected Seles' tennis history, her opinion would have been better received.

    AngieB
     
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  21. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    While no one said they had to be friends, it says much when you have open, hostile behavior that carries only the stench of jealousy (like Hingis, Davenport, Mauresmo and Dementieva's comments about the Williams sisters), or Martina's anti-Graf, pro-Seles noise.

    If Graf never won the Grand Slam, it is likely Martina would have been able to accept Graf winning a couple of majors per year, but it seems highly plausible that in Martina's mind, Graf winning the Grand Slam was the most important, untouchable achievement she was incapable of winning.

    As a result, Graf was catapulted to the GOAT/legend status at such a young age, while Martina could do nothing about it--other than scramble wherever she could, and eventually select Seles as her "chosen one" to beat Graf into submission.

    It was already too late for that, as she (Graf) had already won the Grand Slam, so anything else was majors gravy, and stopping her at that point would not erase the history made in 1988.
     
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  22. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Didn't realize this - However?

    But Martina was 31 and Steffi was 18 - I would say different generations.
    Hope my math is right!

    But the Saturday Night Clip was funny! Maybe she's just ultra competitive!
     
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  23. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Exactly my point. Borg's opinion on Soderling is not credible and people are entitled to laugh at it, since Borg is obviously being insanely biased to a fellow Swede. That he is the great Borg is meaningless. You get this since it is you who brought it up and are realizing how stupid a thing it was to ever say.

    Well the same way Navratilova has proven unable to keep her biases in check on virtually any top player, and Graf and Seles are two of the foremost where her word stands for nothing as she had spewn far too much nonsense about both already to ever be taken seriously again. I know you realize this too, and are just denying it now since it favors what you want to believe.

    Well I would bet a million dollars that Nagelsen and Navratilova forced to make a bet on their life (or a million dollars) on Seles over or under 9 more slam wins (discounting the 8 pre stabbing ones) upon her return, they would have both bid over.
     
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  24. AngieB

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    Do you remember in 1982 when Navratilova and Evert were publicly cutting one another? I mean, those two were by far the most caddy sports figures of their time.

    Around the time Nancy Lieberman began helping Navraitlova is when Navratilova began making everything personal. Navratilova's entourage at that time enabled her.

    There were also questions about Navratilova's relationship with coach, Renee Richards, who for obvious reasons had easy access to hormones and steroids. Martina's physical transformation was quite astounding during this time period. Women's athletics hadn't seen this type of athlete before.

    AngieB
     
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  25. PhilStar!

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    If you want to go by that logic, then we have absolutely no choice but to anoint Margaret Court as the GOAT. After all, she has the most grand slams.

    Personally, I think Margaret should get the title any way, so people can stop yapping who is GOAT, Steffi or Martina. Or Federer.

    Lets see Federer lose some weight, put 2 boobs on, run around in a skirt, play with a wooden racquet, and then we'll see if he can hold his own against Margaret Court! I think not :)
     
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  26. AngieB

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    Do you ever hear Steffi Graf making negative remarks about Martina Navratilova? No. Because Steffi Graf doesn't have an axe to grind, Martina does.

    AngieB
     
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  27. AngieB

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    Betsy. Interesting choice.

    AngieB
     
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  28. AngieB

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    I think its safe to say that Martina Navratilova felt the same way about Steffi Graf as Chris Evert felt about Tracy Austin.

    AngieB
     
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  29. PhilStar!

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    You're right, Steffi stays quiet. And we have to assume, she's not competitively jealous like the others (though we don't know that for sure. Just because she does not say something does not mean that's how she actually feels).

    But we have to look at it the other way as well. Why is it that these former greats praise Monica to such high esteem but Steffi doesn't?

    Same thing in the end.
     
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  30. scootad.

    scootad. Semi-Pro

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    Of course Steffi stays quiet. She knows she's lucky to come out of the situation with 22 slams.
     
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  31. AngieB

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    Had Margaret Court not resided in Australia, she wouldn't even be discussed as a GOAT candidate because she wouldn't have had the motivation to play in Australia, such as many of her collegues chose to skip that tournament.

    Margaret's 13 grand slam singles titles at French, Wimbledon and US Open combined hurts her women's GOAT status. Margaret's best claim would be her calendar year grand slam in 1970 which enhances her GOAT resume.

    AngieB
     
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  32. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    Sounds like BS to me. Link or it didn't happen.
     
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  33. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I remember she used to draw a lot of complaints because she would enter tournaments, pull out, promise to show up, and then back out. She messed up a lot of draws in her day.

    You do bring up a good political point thats rarely discussed here, the IMG influence. We need a thread on that.
     
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  34. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    Please forgive the language I'm about to use, but it is a direct quote by Ted Tinling who knew more champions than any of us will ever know. He said, "All the top women are *****es."

    He loved them all (as do I even if I didn't root for some) but could still acknowledge this about them. The one exception was probably Evonne who was as lovely off the court as she was on it.

    Its also an attitude that they all felt they needed to have at one time or another. They are fallible human beings after all. Each had to endure demands and pressures and it sometimes brought out the worst in them at times, yes even Chris, who was better at hiding it than the others.

    But then they retire. Most leave fulfilled or find something to redirect their tremendous drive and energy. For instance, Chris embraced her new life with her kids. I get the feeling that she now understands what she used to be like (out of necessity) and is glad that she isn't any more. Of all the former champs she's probably the least concerned with her place in history. I'm happy for her. She deserves such contentment.

    This might be where Martina has had a harder time than others. I don't believe that she hates Steffi and I don't think she has reason to be jealous of her. Martina, who hated being judged, comes off a bit judgemental of others. She's given to strong opinions and hyperbole when she feels strongly. You just have to filter some things she says.

    One of her exes accused her of double and triple checking her official records with the WTA. If true, she needs to move on. It's not like she has anything left to prove.
     
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  35. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Then to be fair, we can assume Graf not saying anything means she's not emotionally involved one way or another.

    Graf has no obligation to comment on anyone. She is one of the most introspective, private players ever to set foot on court, and has never been the kind of active or retired player to say much about anything. Considering that, perhaps she leaves the player assessments to those who are all too willing to provide it.

    Moreover, we have to be honest here--much of the post-stabbing praise of Monica is due to the fact she was stabbed. It is not her fault, but the attack was fueling most of this praise.

    Do you think anyone would praise her to the degree implied if the attack never occured, but she ended up with the same number of majors--or perhaps two or three on top of that?

    I doubt it, which is why the endless "What if?" Monica threads (aka as "Graf was not that great" threads) can only move in a certain direction, as Monica's pre-stabbing form did not lead to the Graf-like levels of:

    EVER winning a Wimbledon title, which automatically means she would never win the ultimate--the Grand Slam.

    No Grand Slam--stabbing or not--and Monica would never match or suprass Graf's historic standing.
     
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  36. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    One thing Navratilova has done here is paint a huge target on her back. Not such a smart move now that she has a young family, and we all know what the Steffi Graf fans are capable of.
     
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  37. AngieB

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    I would argue that Steffi Graf fans are very capable of teaching proper nutrition and weight control.

    AngieB
     
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  38. comeback

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    I like both Navratilova and Graf but in my opinion Navratilova is the GOAT. 18 GS singles and 41 GS doubles is ridiculously off the charts over Graf and everybody else..I disagree with Martina that Seles would have won so many more GS titles but she would have closed the gap.
    Navratilova has overcome many heartbreaks and obstacles. Her parents divorced when she was 3 .Her father committing suicide when she was 8. Seeing her country taken over. Defecting alone to the US. Overcoming weight issues and setting the stage for advanced fitness. Being taken advantage of by gold diggers and nasty divorces. A real activist who speaks out against prejudice and injustice , she lost millions in endorsements because she wouldn't "play the game"..I have nothing against Graf who is part of the Agassi money machine..His school is admirable but they both bleed entrepreneurship..Navratilova is opinionated yes, flawed yes but honest in her beliefs and someone i will always at least listen to.
     
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  39. PhilStar!

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    For the Steffi Graf fans, they need to find more convincing reasons to suggest Steffi's career is greater than either Court or Navratilova.

    Margaret has 2 more Slams than Steffi while Navratilova has by far the most accomplished career.
     
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  40. PhilStar!

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    I don't think it hurts her GOAT status. It's not Margaret's fault that others chose not to play in the Australian Open. Beside, she won plenty of the other slams to make her case that she was capable of winning any where, any surface, any time, any place.

    A slam is still a slam.

    If you look at Margaret and Martina Navratilova's overall accomplishments ( singles, doubles, and mixed doubles championships), Steffi does not come close.

    People don't understand how much stamina, commitment, and sacrifice is expended AND required to participate in ALL those tournaments every year.

    To think that Margaret and Martina was still able to win 24 and 18 GS Single Slams respectively while still winning all those other slams simultaneously, is off the charts from an athletic standpoint.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  41. BTURNER

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    An amazing amount of psycho-analysis from this. Martina has kind of a big mouth, no filter, and no sense of proportion.

    From what I read in this thread, its a pretty common set of problems.

    I like Martina, I like Steffi, and I like Monica, but they all have suffered from media driven images of who they were. They each occasionally put yeast in the dough themselves. Here is Martina doing it.
     
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  42. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Court is on par with Graf because of the Grand Slam. Martina is not in that class, hence the reason she spent long years hating Graf: it was the supreme accomplishment far out of Martina's reach (essentially a brick wall her inflated ego crashed into time and again).

    As noted earlier, remove the Grand Slam, and Martina would not have spent years trying to tear down Graf (and elevate the career of Seles--the Wimbledon washout).
     
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  43. PhilStar!

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    LOL, it should be "Graf is on par with Court", as Margaret Court had a Grand Slam before Steffi, but is the all-time leader with 24 Slams.

    Winning a calendar Grand Slam is not an automatically shoe-in for GOAT.

    Before Federer, Pete Sampras was often considered the greatest player and yet, he never won the French Open while Rod Laver won 2 Calendar Grand Slams. If people want to base their GOAT on Slams won, Margaret Court should deserve that honor on the female side.

    You're forgetting that Monica lost the Wimbledon match because of the whole grunting issue and she couldn't play like her normal self against Graf at Wimbledon. Imagine if the other ladies were complaining about Graf's backhand slices too, and Graf had to rely on hitting dreaded topspin backhands instead. She would not have won the match against Monica as well.
     
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  44. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    It was a swirling debate--one helped by his utter lack of French Open success.

    I've always acknowledged her GOAT status. Anyone who wins the Grand Slam are on the same level for that accomplishment, while the rest of history's various players fight for whatever level exists outside of the GOAT.

    So that means without her then-questionable tactic (that's exactly how the critics were describing it at the time), she lost her one Wimbledon final. That makes her appear weak, particularly when other significant female majors winners (who just so happened to be accused of "grunting") won whether they "grunted" or not during the course of the entire match.

    Either one has the talent to win the Wimbledon title or they do not.

    If there was a big shock at all in that period, it was why Novotna ended up being a one-title wonder at Wimbledon, when her game was a natural to excel there. Few--if any--were saying that about Monica Seles.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
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  45. PhilStar!

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    I wouldn't call grunting a questionable tactic since Jimmy Connors was grunting well before Monica Seles.

    It was not fair to Monica, and Chris Evert brought this same issue up during the Wimbledon Final between Monica and Steffi. Monica was grunting for years and players decided to make issue of it years later, particularly in the middle of a Grand Slam. I wouldn't call that weak. I call that a distraction and Steffi, again, just like the stabbing incident, capitalized on Monica's misfortunes :)

    Without going off-topic and return back to what this thread was originally about, I don't think Martina is suggesting that Monica would've been the greatest but could've won the most slams.

    Monica was 4 years younger than Steffi, and Steffi went on to accumulate 22 Slams. So why would it not be a far-fetched idea that Monica Seles wouldn't have achieve the same, if not more, given the 4 year age difference? And don't forget, Monica overtook Graf as the number 1 player.

    Some might say that Graf would've been in her way but yeah, turn the argument around, and Monica would've been in her way too. In the end, they cancel each other out and end up with about the same slams.

    I don't think Martina's comment is out of line. A bit over-the-top, maybe, but her comments are not baseless.
     
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  46. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    Yeah, just give em a fishing knife and it's all good :-|
     
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  47. suwanee4712

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    That brings up a good point of discussion. Do we make too big of a deal over the grand slam?

    Part of me says how can you discount something so rarely achieved? Its a great accomplishment. It's like a celestial spectacle that only happens 2 or 3 times in a lifetime.

    Does it qualify you for GOAT? I say not on its own. The people who have done it all have strong arguments for that honor .... but not because they completed the grand slam. Its because they achieved a high level over an extended period of time. The slam is just the crown jewel.
     
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  48. jrs

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    To be honest - never heard Steffi Graf say anything!

    Rarely hear Steffi Graf say anything - maybe she only spoke to the German media - or wasn't a person looking for a lot press.
     
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  49. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Can you make this a new thread - great topic?

    I've never thought of that - but remember thinking - boy she's built almost like a man. Thought it might have been her outfit.

    But I think it should be another thread!
     
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  50. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,540
    Exactly. Winning the Grand Slam *on its own* does not make you GOAT.
     

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