Martina Navratilova: Shut Up

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by AngieB, May 2, 2013.

  1. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    History suggests it is the latter--she's just extremely private. She never needed to express the obvious about Seles (as a competitor, latter day re-assessment, etc.) or repeat the comments about her being the GOAT when she won the Grand Slam. Graf let others do most of the talking, while she let her game and privacy speak for itself.
     
  2. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Right. The 22 open era slams and all of Graf achievement is a reason why disgruntled Martina don't like Graf.
     
  3. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    I think they do

    I think no calendar year grand slam means no goat!
     
  4. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Very accurate statement. When Steffi retired from tennis, she left her career for history to judge. She hasn't attempted to revise history or try to change anything. She left it all on the court. Her focus is on family. Some could learn by her example.

    AngieB
     
  5. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    This is all small petty ****, compared to the good they all do for the sport, for charity. They are not being nearly as divisive in their comments or behavior as we are 'interpreting' them for their comments or behavior.
     
  6. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    If it were that Navratilova had only made one or two off-the-cuff remarks in regards to Steffi Graf over the years, it would be a non-issue. But quite the opposite has occured. Navratilova has went out of her way to not only attempt to degrade Steffi's athletic achievements, but attack her personally several times in the media.

    Its very petty.

    AngieB
     
  7. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    True, and while she was playing, she never provided her own commentary of the importance of her achievements. As noted before, when she was near-universally called the GOAT in 1988 after winning the Grand Slam, Graf was not acting as her own PR. With what we know about self-interested Navratilova, imagine if (in an alternate reality) she was talented enough to have won the GS--she would have screamed it at every generation to follow about "what it takes to be the greatest," or "take it from me, you have to put in X amount of work and MY kind of game to win..." It would have been the Martina show at every major from the Seles generation, to Hingis, to the Williams sisters to Azarenka.

    About your "leaving it on court," that's quite impossible when Martina has nothing else to live for, so she has to attempt to alter history (not working) by attacking Graf and/or elevating Seles.
     
  8. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    That's a very simplistic and one-track way of looking at things, which I think serious analysts have to avoid.

    For one thing, we have to look at the opposition faced. There is no way any man in history is going to beat prime Nadal in the FO final, therefore no man stands a chance of winning the CYGS in his era. By contrast, those facing no such clay giant can have a chance to win the FO.

    This is why Laver won the CYGS in 1969 and Federer did not in 2006/2007.

    Furthermore, we need to take into account a player's entire career. Laver is not called GOAT by some *solely* because he won the CYGS, but because that was the crowning achievement of an already stellar career (domination in the amateurs and then pros).

    Anyone who simply says "Grand Slam = GOAT, no Grand Slam = no GOAT" is either trolling or a poor analyst.
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    and when one has three GS? pro, am and open?
     
  10. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    The Open Era CYGS is the only legitimate one.

    However I do of course accept Laver as a GOAT candidate, but not only for his 1969 year.
     
  11. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's the same thing as saying no 300+ weeks at #1 means no goat. Or a minimum of 12 years playing on the pro tour to qualify goat(that leaves out Borg).
     
  12. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Okay. I figured out what's happened here.

    Navratilova, knowing Connors was going to make his revelation about Evert this weekend, tried diverting attention from Evert to her by making disparaging comments about Graf.

    Some things never change. Its still all about you Martina.

    AngieB
     
  13. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Could be.

    I must say, I dislike Navratilova more with every utterance of hers.
     
  14. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

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    I don't think Steffi will be losing any sleep over what Martina Navratilova has to say.
    Steffi came along in 87, when Navratilova and Evert were still leading the tour, and began to wipe the floor with both of them. She then won the Golden Slam, a feat neither women achieved. For Navratilova, this would have been hard to take. Whatever we want to say about the Grand Slam, it is considered by many to be the ultimate achievement. Tennis is measured in seasons and to withstand the pressure of winning all four Majors in one season, with all that Media interest, is the mark of a GOAT. It is also highly unlikely that a Grand slammer is not going to do anything else after that achievement, as Graf's fellow Grand Slammers demonstrate.
    The point is that the jealousy started then and got worse and worse as Graf's Major tally increased. And then came the stabbing and the criticism of Steffi and how she handled it and how it inflated her career achievements. And it was the perfect ammunition for Navratilova, seeing the 23 year old Graf with 11 Majors and well on her way to surpassing 18, to use to belittle Graf and argue against her being the Goat.
    But really, what else was Graf supposed to have done? Retired? Crumbled under all the criticism? No wonder the already quiet Graf kept silent. All Graf could do was what she had always done: turn up and play. She did and she doubled her Major haul and sent herself to the top of at least half of the tennis analyst's GOAT list.
    And as for Graf being unpopular in her time. She was enormously respected by the tennis elite who mostly approved of her letting her racket do the talking. And the crowds loved her too. I don't think there is anyone posting here who has not seen the '96 and '99 French Open finals.
    Graf has those memories of her celebrated wins as well as her own private thoughts on what happened to Monica and how it affected her own career. She has every right to both of them and every right not to share them just as Martina has her right to unleash her venom, venom which will most likely go uncared for by the one whom it was directed at.
     
  15. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    I don't ever recall a collective tennis crowd at a tennis match ever reacting negatively to Steffi for any reason. She never really gave anyone a reason to. I think even most casual of tennis observer respected Graf's respectful, calm demeanor towards her opponents. Even when Graf was crushing her opponent's on court, she never did anything demonstrative to take away their dignity. People respected that about Graf, in the same manner they respect Roger Federer.

    While Steffi had ample motivation to win, she rarely publicly personalized her victories or defeats. The 1999 French Open final was the one time that Graf openly showed her disdain and the crowd loved her for revealing herself and showing the emotion she hid so well for so many years.

    I felt Steffi had placed tennis in its proper persective so early in her career that she never allowed its rancor to affect her day-to-day living. Her seemingly smooth transition into retirement, marriage and motherhood seems to supports that theory. She left tennis on the court and all its struggle.

    I agree. Steffi probably doesn't care about anything Navratilova has to say about anything. On some level during her youth when she overtook Navratilova and Evert, Steffi probably realized that Navratilova would always hold some animus towards her for competitive reasons and would never be
    able change it. There's always going to be that one jealous "beeotch" that lurks in your shadows and tears away at everything you ever tried to build. Everyone has at least one in their life.

    AngieB
     
  16. rosewallGOAT

    rosewallGOAT Banned

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    Graf fans dont need to prove anything. Most people regard Steffi as the female GOAT these days, while Serena is also passing Navratilova in support it seems. Navratilova is viewed as 2nd or even 3rd, and nobody considers Court the GOAT. What you happen to think means squat all.

    Graf's career is greater than Court since she did far better at the real slams in singles (Australian Open in Court's day was not a real slam). She has over twice the Wimbledons and that is supposed to be Court's favorite surface, and Court has the same # or in most cases fewer in all of French Opens, Wimbledons, U.S Opens, years as #1 player. Court's only argument is her doubles career considering the 11 Australian Open stat is a joke. As for Navratilova, Graf's career in singles blows her away. Other than grass and carpet achievements, she is nowhere close. Again her only argument is doubles.
     
  17. rosewallGOAT

    rosewallGOAT Banned

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    Yes if Court were an American she would have 14 slams (probably 1 Australian in her 2 or 3 attempts at most), and if King were an Australian she would probably have 20 slams (with about 9 or 10 Australian Opens vs non participating fields just like Court has now). Not saying King is better or greater than Court but just putting things into perspective. Court is really an 18 slam winner at absolute best. There is a reason she is viewed as beneath Graf, Navratilova, Serena, and Evert in most peoples GOAT lists.
     
  18. racquetfreak

    racquetfreak Semi-Pro

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    woulda/coulda world

    Seles - Graf. both are great champions and great people.

    no doubt if the stabbing had not occurred, Seles would have won more major and Graf less -plus several other major winners in that period would not have won any (ala federer-nadal-djokovic shutting out the rest from access to major championships). in this in the woulda/coulda world, Seles is my pick for GOAT right behind a more motivated Serena (33 majors) with Graf in a very close #3. in this world Maureen Connolly may well have soaked up 90% of the major titles in the'50s.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2013
  19. rosewallGOAT

    rosewallGOAT Banned

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    I see without the stabbing Seles winning 11 or 12 slams. I dont see anyway she keeps up a 3 slam a year pace. She just isnt that good to do that year after year. However I could see her winning about 1 slam per year for the next 4 years, so 4 or 5 slams in the 93-96 period which gives her 11 or 12 total as she had 7 before 1993 began.

    Navratilova says more slams than Court. That is hilarious. Where was she going to win that many. Even to those who think she would have kept dominating over Graf and winning 2 or 3 slams every year for the next 4 years, that still only brings her to about 16 slams. Where were the next 9 or 10 going to come from. Was she going to keep winning loads of slams into the era of the Williams, Hingis, and Davenport, people she did horribly against. Especialy the Williams it is clear she was never going to cope with effectively, they are just awful matchups for her, and Navratilova presumes her dominating even into their eras and still winning most of the slams to come up with 25+. Pure nonsense and fantasy.
     
  20. muddlehead

    muddlehead Rookie

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    8 - 2

    This is simple. Real, real simple. Up to the time of the stabbing, head to head titles in the prior three years, Seles won 8 majors and Graf 2. Every mention of Graf's majors success has to include this information.
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yes, specially the French crown when she played Hingis in the finals...
     
  22. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    On the day of the stabbing...

    Graf 11 majors (3 Australian, 2 French, 4 Wimbledons, 2 US), Seles 8 (3 Australian, 3 French, 0 Wimbledon, 2 US)

    Graf had won 6 of their 10 matches.

    That's reality, rather than conveniently choosing 'the prior three years'.
     
  23. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Martina used to criticize Monica for her grunting and at Wimbledon even said she sounds like "a stuck pig."

    Martina is right though, Graf really mishandled the whole situation and showed little class. Who knows, maybe she secretly enjoyed that it happened, it sure helped her own career and to overcome Monica who was owning her.

    Never forget when Graf beat Monica at that US Open final and she over celebrated and really rubbed it on on Monica, she even ran over and hugged her mom BEFORE shaking hands with Monica at the net. Talk about low class.

    Also, you get the sense the whole thing really screwed up Monica's personal life too, she's so private and a recluse now, she used to be very public and outgoing. Parche should burn in hell for that insane crime which was attempted murder.
     
  24. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Steffi Graf is the greatest female player in grand slam history on combined surfaces (grass, clay and hardcourt). Its really difficult for me to believe that Monica would have won more grand slam events than Margaret Court when she couldn't win Wimbledon. Monica's two fisted forehand and backhand, along with her limited movement were huge impediments for her on grass.

    Had Monica not been stabbed, she would have won more grand slam singles events. How many? Not Court-like numbers for sure, more like Serena Williams probably.

    AngieB
     
  25. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    If we cannot understand their opinion, they should not voice it. Simple as that. Commentating 101.
     
  26. muddlehead

    muddlehead Rookie

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    "That's reality, rather than conveniently choosing the prior three years."

    Huh? There's the little matter of Graf being 3 1/2 years older than Seles. The convenience of the prior three years is provided by seles winning her first major in Paris 1990. Oh, I don't know. Do you think when they were both playing at a top level could be a pretty good place to start a comparison? We could start when Graf won her first major in 1987 and Seles was 13 at the time. But, that doesn't seem quite fair.
     
  27. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    I think the general point is that over that 3yr period, Seles was dominating the GS events, not Graf. Now, the Seles fans can point to that and say "wow, she would've kept winning just as many in 1993 and 1994, even 1995, if she was not stabbed"...well, maybe yes, maybe no. It's a guess. If she kept up that high level of play, perhaps. But, who's to say she could've done that? Maybe she would've done a Bjorn Borg and walked away....she stayed away 2 full years, as it was, when she didn't really have to. Regardless, I do think Steffi would've had a few less wins, if Monica had not been stabbed.....that's not too much of a stretch to make.
     
  28. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    I think Seles would have become even better during those years she missed. She missed her best years. She was still figuring out the grass of Wimbledon. Big girl power hitters Davenport and the Williams continued to improve as players until age 30. Seles was just barely if not even 20 when she was stabbed. It was clear to all who lived those years that Seles was the superior player to Graf, just like Rafa is to Federer.

    Fed could not do anything to solve Rafa and Graf had no answers for Seles either.
     
  29. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Yes a player who couldnt win a Wimbledon (maybe without the stabbing she would have lucked out and won 1 max in a year she didnt face any of Graf, Novotna, Hingis, and certainly none of the new age power hitters, and that is being generous), couldnt beat Graf on any fast court, would have various new height, new body, injury, and family problems even without the stabbing soon to come, and who wouldnt have won any slams past mid 98 at the lastest (again being super generous, and giving her tons of baseless what if she wasnt stabbed considerations already, considering as it was her last slam was January 96) was going to win 25 slams or more. Martina must have been smoking the same crackpipe as when she guaranteed Nadal was going to win 2-3 slams every single year after 2010 and smash Federer's slam record by 2014 (I love Nadal, but that was never going to happen, and she didnt just predict it, but declared it with total certainty and even inferred Federer knew it was a foregone conclusion it would happen that quickly).
     
  30. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Martina's predictions are all over the place. I think she draws on her own personal experience during her Chris Evert rivalry in regards to her prediction of Nadal vs Federer. Her myopic view of tennis at times can be concerning. She might not be the best tennis analyst out there.

    As you described, outer forces not in Monica's control seemed to create a period of chaos during a time when Monica should have continued to excel. Both mentally and physically she had tons to overcome. We should all feel fortunate that she returned to tennis and did as well as she did. It was good for tennis to see her comeback.

    Martina's evolution in regards to her relationship with Monica (eg. grunting complaints) reveals a an old generational quasi political flip-flop that her peers embraced in the infancy of the Open Era. Siding with one enemy to eliminate another. Old school.

    AngieB
     
  31. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Martina's assessment of how Nadal was likely to match up with a 30 something Federer in years to come was quite correct, but unfortunately she didnt take into account that the mens game is nothing like the womens game in the Evert-Navratilova era. There are actually more than 2 players who play tennis (I am thinking of the ultra weak 82-84 period mostly), and someone else was likely to emerge at some point (turned out it was Djokovic), and most of all Nadal's history of injuries making it unlikely in any case he wouldnt have some relatively down years.

    I agree with you on the rational behind Martina's "friendship" with Monica today. Martina was one of the biggest Monica detractors pre stabbing, and suddenly she became her best friend after. Sorry I dont think the intent of it is genuine in the least, and I feel sorry for guillable Monica who probably believes it is.
     
  32. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    That is undoubtedly true.

    The crazed man was trying to help Steffi's career and he succeeded.
     
  33. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    Seles was extremely unpopular in the locker room particularly at the height of her immature antics 91/92. So it wasn't just Martina and Steffi that didn't like her (though for some reason Seles thought all players liked her except Gigi Fernandez).

    Where Martina and Seles got closer was the WTA negotiations to get Seles back in the game in 1995. Martina went to FL regularly to negotiate her return and to practice with her. I think they've maintained a good relationship since. And my guess is that Martina's view is very much influenced by Seles' personal opinions. In other words, Martina says what Seles won't say publicly. Because post stabbing Seles is a much different person from who we remember so long ago. She's very mature, eloquent, and soft spoken.

    This all just so happens to benefit Martina's case for GOAT too. Martina is the GOAT in my humble opinion. But she's very political. Much more so than Steffi or Chris in this respect. She should just let her record speak for itself.
     
  34. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Valid points. As much as I dont like to say something like this as it makes the tragedy sound like a good thing, when in no way it was that ,but Seles did became a much better human being after the stabbing. Chris Evert was one of those who noted that, she was robbed tennis wise but became a much better person with a much broader perspective on the World. Of course I suspect some of that was just the natural progress of becoming an adult too.
    It might well be Martina finds her a much better kind of person to be friends with now than she was then. However almost immediately after the stabbing she began to suggest a close buddy-buddy thing with Seles, not just compassion and support in the wake of the awful stabbing, and this was less than a year after thrashing Seles to the press and the gruntometer controversy at Wimbledon. It wasnt a gradual thing over a few years. Sorry for me that and its intent comes across as a little suspicious and hard to believe. JMO

    I do agree Martina needs to leave it alone. Even if she might not be the consensus GOAT anymore, she still has a decent proporition of people who back her as the GOAT, probably for the whole time she is still on Earth. She has many meaningful records, and her legacy as an all time great is forever secured, no matter how many in the milleniums to come surpass her. That should be good enough, promoting herself agressively and subtly biting at Graf and Serena frequently (and sometimes not so subtly) will not convince the people who think one or both of those rank as the GOAT above her now to change their minds, and if anything will just turn the general tennis fan population against her. The reaction to her comments in this thread, even based on something that could be seen as genuine and not based around her personal motives (but given her history, especialy regarding Graf, as you can see few believe) is already evidence enough her intent of what she is trying to do only backfires.
     
  35. ctjpm

    ctjpm New User

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    I'm surprised individuals exist who don't think Connolly would have won more than her nine majors, but for her accident.
    A distinction between suffering a pre-meditated attack & suffering an accident should & isn't always made though. Latter point is a bit 'Bette Davis' territory for me, individual hardships shouldn't be a competition.

    Predicting Seles' tournament performances pre & post stabbing = polar opposites. I do remember many commies at the time made remarks about Seles needing to get fitter to achieve similar feats, achieved pre-stabbing that is.

    Agassi and ecstasy - Sports Illustrated.
    To say the contretemps had its effect on Seles in the rain-plagued finals -- a rematch of her battle with Graf for the French Open championship, which Seles won 10-8 in the third -- is an understatement. "In Paris, Monica was really loud," Graf said with a smile before the match. "Will I complain here? We will see."

    Corporate clones. Success (it could be argued, maturity was responsible - I'm not buying that.) brought -
    Federer - cut his hair, wore ill advised 'garments' at Wimbledon, racquet smashing became alot rarer, almost non-existant. As for 'his box/support', moving on...
    Nadal - sleeves were introduced, pirate pants disappeared, interviews became far less funny, hair was cut shorter & shorter.
    And to 'prove' Nike isn't the only corporation to stifle 'personality.'
    Djokovic - Humour seems forced were once it was simply endearing & funny, racquet smashes became infrequent. Boring babbling on about responsibility to the tour etc. The 'New Safin' disappeared as quickly as he appeared.

    Seles - 1990-1993
    Connolly - 1951-1954

    Sometimes a little 'digging under the surface' is required. Of the GS events both competed in, Seles won 8/11, Connolly won 9/9. It should be pointed out, Seles was competing against a player (Graf) who won the grand slam two years previous to her four year period. (Winner of 7 of the previous 8 majors to boot.)

    With hindsight, Graf should have abstained (or better yet agreed to the No.1 ranking being frozen) mirrored Sabatini regarding the top ranking. She gave Gunter on a plate, just what the man wanted, sadly she wasn't alone. The trophies won were won by her, no donation of trophies should have been given imo.

    Well she could have beaten Seles in Berlin'90 & won more to be ranked No.1 on the computer but alas she didn't realise someone who is bed ridden in 2013 (karma?) was taking a sport seriously, far too seriously.

    'Steffi had 22 but she didn’t have anyone to play against. This guy changed the course of tennis history, no doubt about that.'
    I always feel sorry for Sanchez when these types of comments are made. A player who competed in some of the greatest matches of the 90s.
    Navratilova absolutely correct with the latter point, Seles' career path not unique in changing the course of tennis history though. One of the very saddest mind, imo the saddest.
     
  36. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    Maybe you should do a little research before you start telling lies.
    Martina Navratilova has a beautiful fiancée, two beautiful daughters and a successful career.
     
  37. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    Wow, with psychic talents like that you should be picking lottery numbers instead of reading Navratilova's mind :-|
     
  38. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    Navratilova also fancied Graff but was of course turned down...
     
  39. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    :lol:eek:nly in Steffi's dreams. Of course, Graf didn't turn down Sabatini & Rennae Stubbs :)
     
  40. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    Navratilova is ugly as feck. Nobody would dream of hitting on her, especialy Graf who is quite attractive, fugly nose aside. I do believe a story of Navratilova making a play at her and being turned down more easily than the other way around.
     
  41. ripitup

    ripitup Banned

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    As for Navratilova saying Seles would have broken Court's record and Graf would have hardly anymore slams after 92 if Seles werent stabbed, that is just Martina's bias. She loves Seles who is one of her best friends and she hates Graf and is jealous that Graf is considered greater than her these days. Boo hoo.

    I love Seles but Graf's career was barely impacted by the Seles stabbing I believe. Lets assume Seles wins 6 slams in 93-96 which given her post 96 career is probably more than she really does. Graf would still probably win the other 10. How many did Graf win from 93-96 anyway. Oh yeah thats right 10.

    As for Seles who generally did poorly vs Graf, Venus, Serena, Hingis, and even the lowly Davenport, and who didnt have the athletic ability or adaptability for a long career on top breaking Court's record someday, get a clue old haggy Martina. You make a fool of yourself with comments like that.
     
  42. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    17 posts? Nice try, NadalAgassi sock puppet :roll:
     
  43. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    perhaps I did not phrase it very well but I meant Navratilova made a pass at Graf;

    my memory may be wrong but I seem to recall when Graf won her first Wimbledon by beating Navratilova, Navratilova gave her a present (a very expensive necklace iirc) which Graf did not accept, or a story like this so I sense bitterness!
     
  44. Rozroz

    Rozroz Legend

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    really??? she tried to hit on her?? LOL
     
  45. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    from my aged and jaded memory I remember something like this happened but have no proof and it is hazy, would not be surprised as Graf is an attractive lady
     
  46. gavna

    gavna Hall of Fame

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    eeeeewwwwww!!! awesome body! But face like a horse! You could go skiing on that Teutonic schnooz.
     
  47. chandler bing

    chandler bing Rookie

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    When he was drunk, which was often, Peter Graf repeated a story of a player hitting on Steffi in the locker room. Steffi herself stated later that this player later married a man,which rules out Navratilova.

    It was Hana Mandlikova.
     
  48. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    that really did make me lol (god I hate the lol) the most amazing legs, great figure pretty face EXCEPT the nose but I quite admire her lack of vanity as she could have had it 'sorted' which makes her attractive in my book!!!
     
  49. chippy17

    chippy17 Semi-Pro

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    I think you have that the wrong way round, what Steffi thought was a man made a pass at her in the locker room and then he/she married a woman...:)
     
  50. MAXXply

    MAXXply Hall of Fame

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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc etc...I think her nose is the feature which makes her such a unique beauty. Unfortunately I can't say the same for Barbra Streisand. I once had a minor workmate-crush with a statuesque young blonde woman who had a similar schnozz to Steffi. As George and Jerry said in the Seinfeld "Pigman/The Moyle" episode, (I'm paraphrasing):

    "Don't worry, there's always some ******* out there who likes that stuff..."
    "Ooh that little pigtail always makes me squeal..."

    Steffi looks hotter than ever now she is in her MILFilicious mid-40s.
     

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