Match point failure rate among the Big 4?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Mainad, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    In his last 2 tournaments following his USO win, Murray failed to convert no less than SEVEN match points: 2 against Raonic in the semi-final of Tokyo and 5 against Djokovic in the final of Shanghai. In both cases, he was defending champion.

    Among the top 4, does this now mean he holds the unwanted distinction of being the player with the most match points unconverted?

    Federer also notoriously failed to convert match points in TWO successive USO semi-finals against Djokovic (2010 & 2011).

    What about Djokovic and Nadal? How often have they lost after holding match points? Or has it never happened to them?

    Does anyone have the stats for this and maybe for all the players? Thanks.

    PS. Where's Mustard when you need him? :wink:
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
    #1
  2. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

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    Federer also held match points against Baghdatits at 2010 Indian Wells and Berdych at 2010 Miami and lost both. Awful.
     
    #2
  3. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    Federer also had 5 match points against Monfils in the 2010 Paris masters semi final.

    What was it with him and match points in 2010??
     
    #3
  4. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

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    even though the murray examples are more recent, i still think the two match points federer failed to convert at the semis of two USOs against djokovic are the biggest/most important flops/failures, and will likely be the most remembered examples within the top 4, at least for me.
     
    #4
  5. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    that's the beauty of tennis, no clock.
     
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  6. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    I'd be curious to see how much match points Nadal and Djokovic have missed out on. They seem to be much more mentally tough than Murray and Fed.
     
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  7. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I'm curious about that one too.
     
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  8. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    The only time I remember Nadal losing having match points is against Davydenko in Doha 2 years ago. Federer came close to pulling this off in the 2008 Wimbledon (saved match points in the 4th set) but lost the 5th.
     
    #8
  9. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    also the 2005 AO AF vs Safin. That could be a record, losing 3 matches in majors after having match point(its unlikely that anyone else has done that 3 times in the later rounds of majors, maybe some lower ranked player has done that multiple times in early rounds of majors)

    also 2005 Monte Carlo vs Gasquet. So that makes 7 matches so far.
     
    #9
  10. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    It's 4 for Murray IIRC - but two of them came in the last week:shock:
     
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  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Federer blew championship points against Nadal at 2006 Rome.

    Nadal blew championship points against Davydenko at 2010 Doha.
     
    #11
  12. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    '06 Rome Final was one of the best matches I've seen. I really think that if Federer managed to overcome Nadal in that match he would have won the French Open that year. He was one forehand away of doing so.
     
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  13. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    Mustard, McEnroeisanartist... challenge time!

    How many match points have the top guys saved in matches they've gone on to win?

    On your marks, get set... go!
     
    #13
  14. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Don't think rafa has ever lost after having MP
     
    #14
  15. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Didn't he have matchpoint against Fed, Miami 2005 final?
     
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  16. zam88

    zam88 Professional

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    it can be the curse of the sport as well for TV and casual viewers purposes as well.
     
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  17. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Don't think he did he came close in the TB but I could be wrong
     
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  18. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    No, but I think he had a 5-2 lead in the 3rd set tiebreak. Or was 2 points away from winning anyway.
     
    #18
  19. sale

    sale New User

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    Djokovic lost from Nadal in Madrid 09 final after holding 3 MP in 2nd set tie-break.
    He also lost from Youznhi in Rotterdam 07 semifinal, but i dont remember how meny MP he lost, 1 or 2 ...
     
    #19
  20. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Does a list even exist? Off the top of my head.

    Nadal: 16 (2 vs Federer at 2006 Rome, 5 vs Nalbandian at 2009 Indian Wells, 2 vs Djokovic at 2009 Madrid, 5 vs Almagro at 2009 Paris Indoor, 2 vs Troicki at 2010 Tokyo)
    Djokovic: 13 (2 vs Federer at 2010 US Open, 2 vs Federer at 2011 US Open, 4 vs Tsonga at 2012 French Open, 5 vs Murray at 2012 Shanghai)

    I can't think of any for Federer or Murray at the moment. Maybe my mind's gone blank.

    Nadal blew 2 championship points in the 2010 Doha final against Davydenko. Davydenko eventually won by the score of 0-6, 7-6, 6-4.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
    #20
  21. djones

    djones Hall of Fame

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    Federer beat Rochus at halle 2006 after saving 2 or 3 match points.
     
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  22. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Ah, thanks for reminding me. I believe that was 4 match points.
     
    #22
  23. underground

    underground Legend

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    Majority of Fed's failure of converting match points were in 2010, mono crap year, excuse him. Others were in his dominant years so it's sort of forgotten. And regarding the USO, it's just Nole so there really is nothing he can do about it.

    Still think Murray's the worst though. Remember in 2008 Masters Cup even though he beat Federer he wasted something like 7 matches point before finally converting one of them?
     
    #23
  24. Ico

    Ico Hall of Fame

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    Federer saved match point to beat an on-fire Lopez last year in Madrid. Two more against Ferrero in Dubai a long time ago.
     
    #24
  25. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    I feel guilty for asking now, the only Murray one I can think of was against Gasquet at Wimbledon 2008.
     
    #25
  26. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    sticking to the topic of thread(matches lost after having match point)

    so far:

    Federer 9(+ '00 Vienna Henman)
    Murray 4
    Djokovic 2
    Nadal 1
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
    #26
  27. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    Mustard, the OP wants to know the records for the top 4 re: matches lost after having match points, not winning it. I'm curious as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
    #27
  28. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    *raises hand*

    This was my bad, I challenged him and McEnroe and diverted the thread. Whoops!
     
    #28
  29. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Here are the matches I know of (when Fed won after saving match points)

    Against Ferrero in Dubai 2005 (won 4 straight points from 4-6 in a final set breaker)
    Against Lopez in Madrid last year (saved it with an ace in a final set breaker)
    Against Roddick at the 2006 Tennis Masters Cup
    Against Verkerk in the 2003 Paris Masters (a crazy match btw)
    Against Agassi at the 2003 Tennis Masters Cup (ice in the veins - he hits a clean forehand winner down match point)
    Against Rochus in Halle in 2006 (not sure about this one)

    I found one match that potentially has Fed winning after saving match points:
    Cincinnati 2003 against Scott Draper when Fed won 4–6, 6–3, 7–6(12–10)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
    #29
  30. *Sparkle*

    *Sparkle* Professional

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    If Fed is excused because of "mono crap year", then Murray can be excused his two recent ones on the grounds of "Asian flu". Being a bit under the weather definitely explains why you might start off a match well enough to reach match-point in a second set, then have your form fall away as the third progresses.

    It's annoying, but doesn't have to be a big deal unless the player themselves dwell on it. One one hand, two tournaments in a row looks like a worrying trend, but on the other hand, if tiredness from carrying a bug was genuinely a factor common to both, then they are exceptions, and statisticians would only let you count it once!:)
     
    #30
  31. Joko

    Joko New User

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    Great to see some threads like that here on tt.
    If I'm not mistaken he had to face MP(s) against Paradorn Srichaphan in Basel back in 06.

    Federer won:
    6-4, 3-6, 7-6(5)
     
    #31
  32. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    He was down 3-5 in that breaker but didn't have to save any match points.
     
    #32
  33. Joko

    Joko New User

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    Oh, I'm sorry. But thanks for clearing it up.
     
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  34. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    2008 was the year Fed had mono, not 2010. No excuses for him on those grounds.

    Just Nole? Is there some law that says you can never convert a match point against Nole? If that's the case, no-one would ever win a match against him! :)

    That doesn't count because he finally did convert one. We're only talking about matches that were lost after having held match points.
     
    #34
  35. roysid

    roysid Professional

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    Let's have the stats for both match points saved and match points wasted.

    Fed: Saved (Against Ferrero(2), Rochus, Roddick, Lopez, Verkerk, Agassi)

    Wasted ( Against Nadal in Rome(2), Novak in USO twice, Baghdatis, Berdych, Safin, Gasquet)
     
    #35
  36. Magnetite

    Magnetite Professional

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    Fed having match points during matches he lost is not really a bad thing.

    His winning percentage is very high, so at least in quite a few of his losses, he didn't get blown out, and made it a close match.
     
    #36
  37. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    What we want is the list for those among the big 4. Any takers ?
     
    #37
  38. OverratedIvanovic

    OverratedIvanovic Semi-Pro

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    Djokovic saved 3 match points against Kohlschrieber from 0-40 down at 4*-5 on his own serve at Indian Wells 2009 or 2010 (one of these)
     
    #38
  39. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    That Davydenko match was amazing but im still mad Rafa lost it.
     
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  40. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    today makes 5 for Murray(and at 3 tournaments in a row)

    weird timing for all these blown match points, following the USO win.
     
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  41. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    That's what's puzzling me. At least he was clutch when it mattered the most at the USO and Olympic finals! But he seems to have got out of the habit since then for some reason. I'm counting on his will to win and clutchness coming back in time for London next week. At least I hope it will. If he does the same thing there, then I think it's time for crisis talks with Uncle Ivan!
     
    #41
  42. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    Match points in a tie break are hyped.
     
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  43. Hawkeye7

    Hawkeye7 Professional

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    He had at least one MP in all of them before the TB and 3 were on his own serve.
     
    #43
  44. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Things are starting to look a little bleak for Murray, he just said after he won his maiden grand slam he would start caring more about small tournaments. I guess it's a coincidence that both he and Djokovic exited early.
     
    #44
  45. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    did tipsarevic have match points against federer @ ao08? I'm not entirely sure.
     
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  46. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    No, he lost fifth set 10:8 i think but didn't have MP!
     
    #46
  47. Anand

    Anand New User

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    Match point success/failure rate among the Big 4

    NOVAK DJOKOVIC
    Match Points saved:

    2012: Tsonga 4(RG QF), Murray 5(Shanghai Final)
    2011: Federer 2(US Open SF), Berdych 1(London RR)
    2010: Kohlschreiber 3(IndianWells RD of 32), Federer 2(US Open SF)
    2009: Serra 5(Halle RD of 16), Stepanek 3(Basel RD of 16)
    2007: Chela 2(Vienna QF), Youzhny 3(Rotterdam SF)
    2005: Garcia-Lopez 3(Wimbledon 2nd RD)

    Total 11 Matches, 33 Match Points

    MPs lost:
    2009: Nadal 3(Madrid SF)


    ROGER FEDERER
    Match Points saved:

    2011- F. Lopez 1(Madrid RD of 32)
    2006- O. Rochus 4(Halle QF), Roddick 3(Tennis Masters Cup RR)
    2005- Ferrero 2(Dubai RD of 16)
    2003- Scott Draper 7(Cincinnati RD of 64), Martin Verkerk 4(Paris RD 16), Agassi 2(TMC RR)
    2001- Massu 3(Vienna RD of 32), Johansson 1(Miami RD of 16)
    2000- Ljubicic 2(Marseille QF), Hewitt 1(Basel R16)
    1999- Guillaume Raoux 2(Rotterdam RD 32)

    Total 12 Matches, 32 Match Points

    MPs lost:
    2000 - Henmen 2(Vienna SF)
    2001 - Rafter 1(Halle QF)
    2002 - Haas 1(Australian Open RD of 16)
    2003 - Albert Costa 3(Miami QF)
    2005 - Safin 1(Australian Open 2005), Gasquet 3(Monte Carlo QF)
    2006 - Nadal 2(Rome 2006)
    2010 - Baghdatis 3(IndianWells RD of 32), Berdych 1(Miami RD of 16), Djokovic 2(US Open SF), Monfils 5(Paris SF)
    2011 - Djokovic 2(US Open SF)

    Total 12 Matches, 26 Match Points


    RAFAEL NADAL
    Match Poinsts saved:

    2010 - Troicki 2(Tokyo SF), Benneteau 1(Cincinnati RD of 16)
    2009 - Nalbandian 5(IndianWells RD of 16), Almagro 5(Paris RD of 32), Djokovic 3(Madrid SF)
    2008 - Moya 4(Chennai SF)
    2006 - Federer 2(Rome Final), O. Rochus 1(Marseille RD of 32)
    2005 - Youzhny 1(Australian Open RD of 64)

    Total 9 Matches, 24 Match Points

    Match Points lost:
    2010 - Davydenko 2(Doha Final)
    2005 - Berdych 3(Cincinnati RD of 64)
    2004 - Ferrer 3(Stuttgart QF), Agustin Calleri 2(IndianWells RD of 32)
    2003 - Nicolas Lapentti 5(Bastad QF)

    Total 5 Matches, 15 Matches


    ANDY MURRAY
    Match Points saved:

    2006 - Mello 5(New Port RD of 32)
    2007 - Youzhny 1(St. Petersburg SF), Haas 2(IndianWells QF), Mathieu 2(Miami RD of 16)

    Total 4 Matches, 10 Match Points

    Match Points lost:
    2012 - Djokovic 5(Shanghai Final), Raonic 2(Tokyo SF), Janowicz 1(paris)
    2010 - Querrey 1(Los Angeles Final)
    2008 - Ancic 2(Miami RD of 64)

    Total 5 Matches, 11 Match Points
     
    #47
  48. Anand

    Anand New User

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    Match point success/failure rate among the Big 4

    NOVAK DJOKOVIC
    Match Points saved:

    2012: Tsonga 4(RG QF), Murray 5(Shanghai Final)
    2011: Federer 2(US Open SF), Berdych 1(London RR)
    2010: Kohlschreiber 3(IndianWells RD of 32), Federer 2(US Open SF)
    2009: Serra 5(Halle RD of 16), Stepanek 3(Basel RD of 16)
    2007: Chela 2(Vienna QF), Youzhny 3(Rotterdam SF)
    2005: Garcia-Lopez 3(Wimbledon 2nd RD)

    Total 11 Matches, 33 Match Points

    MPs lost:
    2009: Nadal 3(Madrid SF)


    ROGER FEDERER
    Match Points saved:

    2011- F. Lopez 1(Madrid RD of 32)
    2006- O. Rochus 4(Halle QF), Roddick 3(Tennis Masters Cup RR)
    2005- Ferrero 2(Dubai RD of 16)
    2003- Scott Draper 7(Cincinnati RD of 64), Martin Verkerk 4(Paris RD 16), Agassi 2(TMC RR)
    2001- Massu 3(Vienna RD of 32), Johansson 1(Miami RD of 16)
    2000- Ljubicic 2(Marseille QF), Hewitt 1(Basel R16)
    1999- Guillaume Raoux 2(Rotterdam RD 32)

    Total 12 Matches, 32 Match Points

    MPs lost:
    2000 - Henmen 2(Vienna SF)
    2001 - Rafter 1(Halle QF)
    2002 - Haas 1(Australian Open RD of 16)
    2003 - Albert Costa 3(Miami QF)
    2005 - Safin 1(Australian Open 2005), Gasquet 3(Monte Carlo QF)
    2006 - Nadal 2(Rome 2006)
    2010 - Baghdatis 3(IndianWells RD of 32), Berdych 1(Miami RD of 16), Djokovic 2(US Open SF), Monfils 5(Paris SF)
    2011 - Djokovic 2(US Open SF)

    Total 12 Matches, 26 Match Points


    RAFAEL NADAL
    Match Poinsts saved:

    2010 - Troicki 2(Tokyo SF), Benneteau 1(Cincinnati RD of 16)
    2009 - Nalbandian 5(IndianWells RD of 16), Almagro 5(Paris RD of 32), Djokovic 3(Madrid SF)
    2008 - Moya 4(Chennai SF)
    2006 - Federer 2(Rome Final), O. Rochus 1(Marseille RD of 32)
    2005 - Youzhny 1(Australian Open RD of 64)

    Total 9 Matches, 24 Match Points

    Match Points lost:
    2010 - Davydenko 2(Doha Final)
    2005 - Berdych 3(Cincinnati RD of 64)
    2004 - Ferrer 3(Stuttgart QF), Agustin Calleri 2(IndianWells RD of 32)
    2003 - Nicolas Lapentti 5(Bastad QF)

    Total 5 Matches, 15 Matches


    ANDY MURRAY
    Match Points saved:

    2006 - Mello 5(New Port RD of 32)
    2007 - Youzhny 1(St. Petersburg SF), Haas 2(IndianWells QF), Mathieu 2(Miami RD of 16)

    Total 4 Matches, 10 Match Points

    Match Points lost:
    2012 - Djokovic 5(Shanghai Final), Raonic 2(Tokyo SF), Janowicz 1(paris)
    2010 - Querrey 1(Los Angeles Final)
    2008 - Ancic 2(Miami RD of 64)

    Total 5 Matches, 11 Match Points
     
    #48
  49. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Didnt Fed also have matchpoint against Nalby at the WTF? Amazing how in at least 2 of the 4 matches he lost that year, he had a mp to win it
     
    #49
  50. Anand

    Anand New User

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    No, He didn't have. He was serving @ 6-5 30-0 in the 5th set then lost 4 points in a row.
     
    #50

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