Max tension for Wilson natural gut 17g?

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by corbind, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Last Saturday I asked the local stringer (at a well-known tennis/golf shop) to string up my Prince EXO3 Tour 100 18x20 with Wilson natural gut 17 gauge. It has a recommended tension of 50-60 (100" head).

    The stringer is a really nice guy and let him know I wanted it strung at 70. He was apprehensive and said, unless he accidentally nicks the string, if it breaks while stringing I'd eat the loss. Very reasonable. A few months back they strung that stick at 65 with 16g Wilson natural gut. Played great but tension loosened over time and baseline balls were hit progressively longer as one would expect.

    Sunday broke strings on one of my Boris Becker London Tour (recommended tension 50-60lbs, 93" head). It was strung with Wilson natural gut 17g at 60lbs and played well when used but got really loose a few weeks back.

    --------------------------

    I want to get that Becker London Tour (93" head 18x20) strung tomorrow with Wilson 17g string hoping to get it done at max + 10 lbs or 70. They guy will freak so I need to know the recommended max tension Wilson 17 gauge natural gut. Anyone know?

    For their 16g I believe it is 71lbs. Need to know max for the 17g Wilson gut...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
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  2. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    What about crossing the gut with a decent multi cross to tame the power? Then you don't have to string it up at crazy high Sampras like tension.
     
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  3. joe sch

    joe sch Hall of Fame

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    The string should be fine at 70lbs and nat gut also should not be much risk to the frame, like a stiff poly that does not flex. The shop is just playing it safe so they do not have to insure your expensive gut incase of break because this tension is out of the normal playing (stringing) range.

    I would also recommend trying a hybrid with your gut in the mains and a poly in the crosses. This will provide much more control and limit the power of the gut. I played all gut for many years and now like hurricane or rpm in the crosses. These hybrids are also very popular on the tour.

    You will also save some $$ on your string jobs.

    For more info on max gut tensions, check out this TT thread:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=231982
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
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  4. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I have thought about it but anything but gut, well, does not play like gut! Another big factor is I don't want to be driving down to the stringer to get new strings often. Using anything but gut in the crosses means the tension will not hold as well and will need to be restrung much sooner. MUCH more the case in a poly or copoly cross.

    Although it may play well, with say poly or copoly in the crosses I don't want to be restring them monthly (poly brings TE).
     
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  5. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Hmmm. Same as my previous reply on anything but gut in the crosses. Read that whole thread and really there's nothing substantive. The guy talking about gut not playing like gut after X tension needs qualifiers on that (85" frame, 100", or GrandDaddy 120" stick?).

    I'm still looking for something that says the recommended max tension for Wilson Natural Gut 17g but nobody has seen anything yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
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  6. COPEY

    COPEY Hall of Fame

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    Because I don't think there's data out there to that effect. As for the stringer playing it safe, in my opinion they're probably more concerned about you exceeding the recommend tension of the racquet, which is much more expensive than a set of gut. Still, I don't think 70lbs is unreasonable, but the fact is stringing at tensions that high using a 17g string increases the likelihood of a premature break during the process or shortly thereafter. But I'm sure you know that.

    As for driving back and forth to the stringer, that's an easy fix: get a stringer. You impress me as a young, avid player, so take the plunge, man. I promise you'll regret that you didn't do it sooner!
     
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  7. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I doubt you would exceed the max tension of the gut but be careful with your knot. Many people seem to think the tighter the string is the tighter the knot has to be. Breaking gut tying the knot is one sad feeling, and very easy to do.
     
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  8. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    A Babolat employee has started a thread in the racquets section.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=447810

    You might try posing the question there.

    (just in case you don't see the association, several learned posters on this board state that Babolat manufacture Wilson's gut)
     
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  9. Faithfulfather

    Faithfulfather Rookie

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    Been there, done that.
     
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  10. WileyCoyote

    WileyCoyote Rookie

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    Gut Rocket Launcher???

    From all I read and based on my experience with natural gut there seems to be pretty much universal agreement that gut does not lose its playability until it breaks, unlike multi and poly.

    But you tell us about gut becoming a rocket launcher for you before it breaks, like multi and poly. Can you elaborate or explain this for me?

    Also, my experiments with all strings tell me that the mains become much tighter as the crosses are added to the string bed. For instance, I strung a hybrid today with Wilson NG 16 at a reference pull of 50 lbs.

    After I added the crosses, my tourna string meter indicated the main tension was 65-70 lbs. Quite change. Like 30% or more tighter. I have seen this kind of tension increase with other string meters also.

    So if you string your mains with an initial pull of 70 lbs, it seems to me that they may end up well over 80 to 85 lbs after the crosses are added to the string bed. Maybe this explains what is happening to your gut--maybe it is failing from being over tensioned? Especially if you are a heavy hitter.

    Something to ponder. And explain if possible.

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  11. volusiano

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    Double posts. Removed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
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  12. volusiano

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    Check out this performaxxstrings.com site. I know it's not the same as the Wilson gut, but it seems like most of their strings have the recommended tension between 50-65 lbs, with the exception of their XtraHigh Tension gut which is rated for up to 70 lbs.

    So what I'm trying to say is that unless the Wilson gut you have specifically states that it can handle 70 lbs, I wouldn't risk trying it.

    XtraHigh Tension Natural Gut

    Our premium Natural Gut string designed specifically for players employing an extreme “Power game” with a VERY HARD, FAST Swing and VERY HIGH racket head speed and requiring higher string tensions. Traditionally, it was nearly impossible for players using this playing style to keep the ball on the court with natural gut. XtraHigh Tension (XHT) provides a much firmer string bed with a unique balance of power and control which allows these players the comfort, feel and long performance life of natural gut while using this electric style and higher string tensions. Excellent for use in hybrids with polyester.
    Available in 1.25mm, and 1.30mm in both 20 & 40 foot lengths. Natural golden color
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  13. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Wilson gut tension loss

    Couple of points:
    1.I use between 50 and 150 sets of Wilson Gut 17 per year
    with Aero Pro Drive 60 pounds gut main/58 gut crosses
    2.You need either an ERT300 or an app to get values of tension loss
    http://www.tenniswarehouse-europe.com/descpageGAMMA-ERT300.html
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=372908
    I do NOT use the tourna string meter and I do NOT understand this device
    You need a large sample like mine to make some statistical prediction
    3.There are three stages corresponding to tension loss
    a) 1 hour from the moment the stringing job is done
    b) 3 hours
    c) 6 hours

    4.Your first sentence is NOT exactly correct

    5.I do NOT understand hybrids
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  14. WileyCoyote

    WileyCoyote Rookie

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    Huh?

    Julian:

    Your couple of points starting with 1 of 5:

    1. Your point is that you are one of Wilson's best customers? I would agree.
    2. If it works for you, fine. For the purposes of this discussion, I am not interested in tension loss, but rather tension INCREASE caused by the introduction of the crosses. I believe you when you say you do not understand the Tourna string meter.
    3. I am not qualified to comment on this; seems reasonable.
    4. Hardly anything I say or anyone else says is EXACTLY correct. But almost all of the threads I have read on this forum, repeat almost all, praise gut for its ability to retain playability almost or until it breaks. From what you have written, it is not clear if you agree or disagree. Exactly or otherwise.
    5. From what you have written, I would agree with you.

    I was first attempting to understand what the OP is talking about, as in looking for an explanation of what he says he experiences. At the same time, taking into account the tension increase of the mains caused by the introduction of the crosses, I offer what is perhaps a partial explanation. Or perhaps not.

    There, now that everything is perfectly clear....

    Harry
     
    #14
  15. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Four experts

    There are 4 experts who MAY help you with your question:
    TW Professor
    jim_e
    drakulie
    mikeler

    I will try to think as well
     
    #15
  16. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Hey Harry. I failed in my OP by exaggerating so I edited my post seeing natural gut does NOT become a rocket launcher at any time (compared to other string materials). I had the gut on that racquet for months and for that fact alone if I had never hit a ball, it would lose tension.

    Yet I did hit with it here and there and I could tell every few weeks it seemed to hit a bit longer. Yet I can blame my racquet all day long but it only did what I made it do. I hit long with the racquet. The easiest way to correct that is just to restring and it resets the tension higher and ball drops shorter. Simple!

    I believe gut actually plays better a day or week after being strung. It always seems "tight" when I first hit with a new full gut job and after a few hours of hitting it feels much better. Perhaps I just adjust to it. Maybe the tension dropped. Who knows.

    Nevertheless, I'm still looking to find out max tension on Wilson gut in both 16 and 17 gauge. If I can't get answers by Monday I'm gonna call their corporate headquarters in Chicago. They were not in on Saturday.
     
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  17. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    The classic Babolat VS lists maximum tension as follows:

    Team (17g): 62 lbs

    Touch (16g): 68 lbs on some packages and 66 lbs on some others.

    Having said this, I have strung 17g at 72 lbs many many times with no problems.

    However, I can understand why your stringer would be apprehensive about going too high on the tension. Of course, if the string should snap, he would not want to be held responsible for that.

    I string for myself, but if I were to ask a pro shop to string gut really high, then I would assure them that I would not hold them responsible for the possible snapping of natural gut.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
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  18. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Thanks scotus as we are getting closer. This is a reference so presumably Wilson gut is a similar max tension. But it seems that if Bab publishes theirs (got a link to where you got those figures or only on the package?) then Wilson would also.

    Just called Wilson's Chicago HQ twice today and the (computer) operator keeps answering. Likely they're all off as it's is NYE. I still have the Becker London Tour waiting to get it strung but need the data first. :evil:
     
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  19. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    These numbers are printed on the back of each set.
     
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  20. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    the older sets of VS gut from Babolat which was commented as the same as Wilsons as someone posted when Wilsons Nat gut 1st came out it had Babolat touch printed on it, So the older sets of vs the non bt7 that is on the 16g. it lists the max. recommended as 70 lbs, so the 17 g. should be a lower recommended tension, and it does state recommended so you can go to what you want, but just may not like the resulting things that can happen. So the 16g. on the package has recommended tension range of 53-70 lbs.This is 16g. and only a recommended tension range, you can do as you please, its your equipment.

    Sampras has VS 17g. strung to 75lbs. mains and crosses, as that was his choice, so you see it can be done, but its your choice if you want to exceed what is recommended.

    Below is photo of older package of VS which is same as Wilson but in 16g. and you will see 70 lbs. recommended limit for that g. Sorry I do not have 17g. packs remaining to let you know what that was recommended,but it most li8kely is lower recommendation, but... I have strung up 17g. at 70 lbs before with no issues, as I said this is only recommended guide, you can do as you please like Pete Sampras did.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  21. WileyCoyote

    WileyCoyote Rookie

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    Babolat Package

    Jim--

    No offense, but I do not read the Babolat labelling the same way you do. For me, they are using the same basic envelope/pouch for 1.35mm/15L gut and 1.30mm/16 gut.

    The way I read their recommended tensions, 53 lbs is the max for 16ga and 70 lbs is the max for 15L ga.

    Am I wrong? This seems way low, but that is what the information on the package says to me. And like you, I string above these tensions, but when you read the label this way, what does Babolat mean?

    What is actually in the package is printed below these suggested tensions, and the particular package you took the photo of was 1.30/16 ga.

    Thanks for your viewpoint; I have always enjoyed reading your answers.

    Harry
     
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  22. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    Evidently we each read this differently, as the 15L and 16 g. both lines from each gauge join together and both go to the range of 53-70 for recommended range, where 53 is recommended low and 70 recommended high. I cannot imagine 53 for max. for 16g. a if so I have been stringing a massive amount of their gut well over the range which I am sure is not as such.

    If you look at the picture a common line joins both the 15L and the 16 and that goes to the range listed, as that tells me it is the same for both the 15L and 16g. The photo was from a set of the 1.30/ 16g. before the BT7 came out, as I stocked up on a good amount of it when they were changing the way it was made.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  23. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    Here's the 17g (which has, erm, uploaded upside down for some reason. But you get the idea...)

    [​IMG]

    So it confirms that Jim is reading as intended.

    That particular photo is my last half-set of pre-BT7 :)cry:), though they haven't actually altered the tension recommendations for that (I have both 17 and 16, and the 16 is the same as Jim's photo).
     
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  24. WileyCoyote

    WileyCoyote Rookie

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    French Logic

    OK. I see how you are all reading it. For me the 16 had its own line for tension and the 15L had its own line for tension. On that package.

    But the 17 ga package does not.

    I guess I need to better understand how the French think. I have the same sort of problems with the Airbus flight control system, but those issues are a lot more dangerous than tennis string.

    Thanks for your help.

    Harry
     
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  25. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Called Wilson's corporate HQ in Chicago a couple of days ago. Asked simply for the maximum recommended tension for their 17 and 16 gauge natural gut. Got a call back from their string guy with an incredibly bad answer: only string as high as the recommended tension of the racquet. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? :twisted:

    So I called back to ask again because that answer is clearly unacceptable and essentially saying nothing at all. It negates any intrinsic tension of the string & does NOT answer my question. That B.S. answer is just that. So if I had a racquet with a head size of 137 square inche Big Bubba says max of 65. So if I happened to use that my answer from Wilson would be 65.

    What if I'm a super-noob using the Super Big Bubba 160" frame max recommended tension of 75. Is Wilson gonna support me using their 17 gauge gut in there? :shock:
     
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  26. COPEY

    COPEY Hall of Fame

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    Personally I think you're making an issue out of something that isn't an issue...and I assure you, I don't mean that as an insult. The guy from Wilson gave you the "company" answer, which is what he's supposed to do. His delivery may be questionable, but no one can come back on him and say, "Well so & so said you can string the gut at 75 with no problem" after they crack their frame or snap the gut during stringing...both of which may or may not have anything to do with stringing it at 75.

    I think Jim's answer was right on the money, the bold part in particular, but you're obviously searching for something else. I would've been surprised if they told you the max recommended tension is somewhere in the 75 - 80 range, but even if they did, when you push anything toward the upper limits of it's max range - especially over a sustained period of time - you're increasing the likelihood of a shorter lifespan.

    If you like your stick at 70, then string at 70, but accept the inherent risks associated with stringing at a tension that is certainly not the norm for most players.
     
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  27. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    If Babolat gives customers specific max tension on the package, logic says Wilson should provide the same.
     
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  28. COPEY

    COPEY Hall of Fame

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    A flawed analogy, but that's neither here nor there.

    So basically what you're looking for is an out if the string breaks during stringing, correct? I mean, if they say, yes - the max tension for 17g (I believe that's the guage you want to use in your London) is 70lbs, and it snaps, you want Wilson to replace it. Is that it or am I missing something?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
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  29. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    There is no "out" if it breaks. If my racquet says max recommended tension of 60 and I string it at 70 and the stick crushes -- it's my loss.

    If a string (like Babolat 17g) says max tension 66 lbs and I have the stringer sting it at 70 -- it's my loss. I exceeded the tension written on the package so I accepted the risk.

    If a string has no max recommended tension listed on the package (like Wilson) and I string at 70 there and the string breaks -- don't know what happens now. Does the stringer grab another pack off the shelf and start over? Do I go buy another set and string 5 lbs less?

    Reality is I'll accept any loss if needed based on the Reasonable Man Theory. I have not had a stringer break my strings while stringing. I have not broken my strings strung at 70 now and been on the stick for a few weeks.

    The point of my post is not to assign liability but to have a REFERENCE for what is deemed the maximum suggested tension of Wilson natural gut 16 and 17 gauge. Not an outlandish thing. ;)
     
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  30. COPEY

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    So you'll accept any loss if needed based on the Reasonable Man Theory. You have not had a stringer break your strings while stringing. You have not broken your strings strung at 70 now and they've been on the stick for a few weeks.

    But...if a string has no max recommended tension listed on the package (like Wilson) and you string at 70, and the string breaks -- you don't understand what happens as a result. Does the stringer grab another pack off the shelf and start over? Do you buy another set and string 5 lbs less?

    From your op: The stringer is a really nice guy and let him know I wanted it strung at 70. He was apprehensive and said, unless he accidentally nicks the string, if it breaks while stringing I'd eat the loss. Very reasonable

    However, the point of your post(s) is not to assign liability, but to have a REFERENCE for what is deemed the maximum suggested tension of Wilson natural gut 16 and 17 gauge.

    Nope, not outlandish at all. It all makes perfect sense now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
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  31. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    So has anyone (including Copey) found max tension for Wilson listed anywhere? :confused:
     
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