Maybe getting a Eagnas...

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by TheLambsheadrep, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    6 point mount, the racket never really sits on the towers anyhow. the arms/v-brackets support the frame height and the billiards just keep it "stretched" into place (bad term choice perhaps).
     
    #51
  2. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    My purchase did not include a starting clamp. I have read and seen that they are not necessary, but I fear that starting the crosses without one with lead to the knot being pulled deep into the grommet. I just can not believe that any good starting clamp will run you $50! I have a feeling that something like this will be too heavy and too large, but would a locking auto clamp (http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Hanson-VIS9AC-Locking-Clamp/dp/B00004SBCF) or any similar vice gripping tool work the same/hold the same tension (without damaging the string) as a starting clamp?
     
    #52
  3. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    Starting clamps used reasonably priced. I think I paid $16 plus tax for mine, and use it as my main clamp. The others work great as well, but not as tight as my main one.
     
    #53
  4. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Did you find it at a local tennis shop (since paying tax was involved)?

    In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBKZFFNLsKU when Irvin pulls at 2:55, it looks like the knot doesn't stress the grommet too much. Would the same grommet be able to take this method many times without a problem, is it stressing the frame at all? As he would continue stringing down the racquet, would it pull the knot in deeper (any worse that using a starting clamp would)?
     
    #54
  5. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    Nope I picked it direct from Eagnas, that was they were still $16, now they are $26.

    It depends on the grommet. I've seen a couple of new racket that were strung like that and the grommet pushed out. I guess it was the stringer's fault for not being careful it did not happen, but it did.

    With a starting clamp you don't put any stress on the grommet. For one reason, it's a tie off hole. Second, the starting clamp rests on the bumper guard. Third, in order to release the starting clamp you pull tension, then clamp the cross then tie off, just like the end of the crosses.
     
    #55
  6. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Ok, definitely going to look into a starting clamp. But, because I'm curious, can you start crosses the same way YUlitle starts the mains (two strings pulled at the same time) and use a base clamp where Irvin uses a starting clamp 7:20 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81W09ntiYO8 (the whole stringing crosses process starts at 6:50)?

    Instead of using a starting clamp to hold the first cross's tension from outside the frame, can the base clamp that's not holding the second cross (after the first and second crosses are pulled at the same time) be clamped where the starting clamp is in the video (but inside the frame obviously)? Then when you pull tension on just the second main, you can move the base clamp that's on the far side of the second main to the side where the string is being pulled from and clamp it. Then you can go down the rest of the crosses just using that one clamp while the other base clamp is still on the first cross. When you get far enough down and want to tie the first cross, you can pull tension on it and release then reuse that same base clamp and then tie off (since a base clamp ends up in that position anyway).

    So step by step, it's:
    1. Pull tension on the 1st and 2nd crosses simultaneously. .
    2. Use a base clamp to hold the 2nd cross near the far grommet and release tension.
    3. Pull tension on the 1st cross.
    4. Use the other base clamp to hold the 1st cross near the close grommet and release tension.
    5. Pull tension on the 2nd cross.
    6. Release and reuse the base clamp that's on the 2nd cross to hold the 2nd cross near the close grommet and release tension.
    7. Pull tension on the 3rd cross.
    8. Use the 2nd cross's base clamp to hold the 3rd cross near the close grommet and release tension.
    9. Pull tension on the 4th cross.
    10. Use the 3rd cross's base clamp to hold the 4th cross near the close grommet and release tension.
    11. Follow this pattern until you want to tie the 1st cross.
    12. Pull tension on the 1st cross.
    13. Release and reuse the base clamp that's on the 1st cross to clamp the 1st cross in the same area as it's been the entire time thus far.
    14. Tie off the 1st cross
    15. Continue stringing crosses from where you left off, and now you have both base clamps to work with.

    Will this work?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #56
  7. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I must commend you on your effort but I must admit I didn't read it. If I were using flying clamp I would use a starting knot to start my crosses. More often than not you are going to lose a lot of tension tying off the top and bottom crosses using a flying clamp. Here is what I would try. Use a starting knot and run in the first two crosses leaving a loop large enough between the first and second cross to tension the top cross. Tension the top cross but don't clamp it. Tis will get some stretch out of the top cross if you leave the tensioner on a few seconds. Then tension the second cross double pulling the top two crosses and clamp.

    EDIT: I did go back and read it and what you said will work except for the tension loss from the clamp twisting before you tie off, or from a large distanc e between the top and second cross.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #57
  8. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    This sounds similar to the end of your Cross Starting Knot video, where you make the knot and then pull the 1st cross. What you're saying above is do that but then do a double pull and then clamp, noted.

    What I was writing about is not using floating clamps, but fixed clamps (I was saying base clamps). I do not own any floating clamps or starting clamps yet, so I was seeing if the method I posted above would allow me to do the cross strings without additional clamps and without risking the starting knot damaging/pulling into the grommet by getting more crosses done first (which, from what I'm reading on the forum, is why people use the starting clamps).
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #58
  9. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry I did misunderstand you. Wat you say will work but seems like a like of dancing around. I would just use a starting knot without a starting clamp.
     
    #59
  10. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    i'd just get a starting clamp (or use a starting knot if you must).
    i just don't like the idea of starting knots in general although it's been used for ages...
     
    #60
  11. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Very cool!

    I will probably string my first racquet with a starting knot in the way you described, and when I become more confident I will try my version. I can even try to tape+upload it so people have the visual to the steps.

    Have you tried/heard of the Grommet Wizard? http://www.rallytennis.com/Tennis_Flare_It_and_Re_Shape_Grommet_Wizard_p/fma110.htm . I doubt I will get one any time soon, but I will probably try to flare the grommets like it shows. I think that will definitely help protect the grommet with the starting knot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #61
  12. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The flaring of the grommet is primarily used to hold the grommet in place while tension is pulled. I am not so sure about how well it will work to protect the grommet from the starting knot.

    If I was going to use a starting knot I would use the smallest one the VS Starting knot. When tying any knot it is best you hold tension on the tag end when tensioning. I would highly recommend that with the starting knot. You will be surprised how little it pulls into the grommet that way. Of course when I hold the tag end of the knot I bet you can guess what I use. You may not NEED a starting clamp but they sure do come in handly.
     
    #62
  13. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Is that the one you zoom in on toward the end of your Cross Starting Knot youtube video?
     
    #63
  14. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    Starting knots were used on wooden rackets without grommets.
     
    #64
  15. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    No that's a knot I just made up here is a thread on the VS Starting knot. It also makes a very good tie off knot.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445496

    Lakers4Life take a look at post #20 in that thread. Do you think Nadal plays with a wood racket? Evidently they are still being used even on the pro tour. Some stringers do not want to use a starting clamp to start crosses.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #65
  16. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Lakers4Life, what do you think of post #56? Just curious
     
    #66
  17. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    I think the steps from post #56 are essentially described (if not actually described) in Jim e's post from http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445496&page=2

     
    #67
  18. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    You're over complicating it.
     
    #68
  19. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    I don't know what your referring to, because this is Post #20 in that thread:
     
    #69
  20. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    I'm getting more done on the stringer little by little, and today I was looking at "Linear ball bearing string gripper" mechanism (http://www.eagnas.com/maxgen/linear.html#GRIPOP). It looks like there's a little rust between the inside and outside parts of the griper (like if the two black rectangular parts that physically grip the string are a hotdog and the steel casing is a bun, there is some rust between the hotdog and the bun haha). It seems to be mainly in the track that the ball bearings lay in. I will try to clean it out as best as possible, and I wanted to point it out (btw, pictures can be posted if anyone wants the visual) because the mechanism doesn't seem to hold string automatically like it claims it should. When I lay the string in between the black rectangles (the string gripper), I need to pull the gripper back myself via the ball bearings to feel any gripping happening to the string. If I just lay the string in there and bring the drop weight down, the string is as free to move as it was initially and the string gripper doesn't move via the ball bearings. I see that the link wants me to pull down on the string as the drop weight starts going down and then the gripper will tighten, and I think that more or less happens now. It's hard to tell without actually trying to string a racquet.

    My biggest concern, though, is it's ability to grip two strings at once. Since this is how I want to start the mains and the crosses, it needs to be able to do this. When I lay two strings in the string gripper and pull the gripper back to tighten, most of the time the string that lays on the bottom of the other stays fine, but the string that is positioned on top of the other comes out of the gripper almost every time as the drop weight is pulled. Sometimes it's all the way out, sometimes only part of what was in the gripper comes out. Either way, that can not be a good thing. Again, I am not pulling tension through a racquet when I am testing this so I'm hoping it may work correctly when I do have a racquet going and after I clean it out as much as possible.

    On a related note, I appreciate the cleaning methods that were posted, they have been a big help. Are there a few key areas/parts that I should 100% definitely look over and clean if necessary? I just don't want to take too much apart if I don't need to, but I also want it to be clean and working to the best of its ability.
     
    #70
  21. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    I usually push the gripper until it holds the string then start applying tension. But it may be different on a DW, you almost need another hand.
     
    #71
  22. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    On a linear gripper (like the NEOS/WISE), you can also angle the string towards your body, and the little resistance will close the gripper for you due to the bend in the string. IMO it's not ask awkward as trying to fiddle with the gripper themselves (pushing it in to close on the string). Less chance for the string to pop out while tensioning, too. This allows for one handed operation on tensioners with the tensioning switch mounted close to the grippers.

    On a rotating drum gripper, I'd recommend doing a double wrap around the jaws if you have the luxury. You can also improve the clamping of the jaws by holding the jaw shut while the tensioner begins working, or doing a similar "string bending" method to encourage the jaw to shut. I will go with a double wrap if you've got the luxury of spare string.

    Edit: while it doesn't really apply in this case, if you have a SPARE starting clamp, you can also put it on the out-side of the rotating grippers. The drum will shut, but what's actually important here is that there's no slippage, and the starting clamp will obviously prevent that.
     
    #72
  23. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Another hand would be nice haha. If the gripper won't consistently grab both strings through the entire drop, I think I'm going to try pulling the string down but not letting go like the link says I can, maybe even keep wrapping it back up around the bottom of the tension rod drum a little bit. I would feel if the grip on one of the strings is lost and the only thing holding the string in the gripper is me, but I'm hoping it would add some extra stability.
     
    #73
  24. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    are you saying that would or would not work in my case (since here i dont know if you were talking about linear grippers like mine)? I do like the idea of a clamp of some sorts giving extra grip, just not too much to damage the string obviously. I will def take that into consideration
     
    #74
  25. bdstpierre

    bdstpierre New User

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    Clamps and Knots

    From the other thread, I think my clamp bases are the same as yours, just mine are color matched to the rest of the stringer. My drop weight tower looks significantly different from yours though.

    I just use a knot to start my crosses. I have done it for years. Ironically, what happens for me is the grommet gets flanged like that special tool would do for you. I find the grommet typically wears out in other areas first (mainly due to inadvertent contact with the tennis court) before the wear at the knot becomes an issue.
     
    #75
  26. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    The concept is the same, but I wouldn't recommend it IF the linear grippers suck in past the frame that houses the grippers. You shouldn't really have to use a backup clamp with linear grippers anyways. If you are slipping on the string, check if an adjustment screw exists, and if so, make sure it is adjusted properly. Also check the alignment of the gripping plates, you should have very parallel jaws.
     
    #76
  27. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Thanks for the info! It's nice to hear that you've strung a lot with this machine and have had a positive experience in general.

    I watched your stringing video on youtube and don't see much difference between our machines outside of the color on the fixed clamps, can you point out where you see a difference on the tower (I can upload more pictures if you want, these were just what were sent to me before I bought it)?

    Plus, the drum near where the tension rod is located looks to be ever so slightly leaning/pulled away from where it's attached to the vertical black arm (tower?). Will tightening the nut on the other side of the vertical black arm (tower?) straighten the drum out, or what will it do? I think it's this was because the machine went unused for a few years and i think he left the tension rod/weight in the drum. btw, I don't know all the parts since it didn't come with a manual, do you still have yours?
     
    #77
  28. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    It only seems to slip when 2 strings are in the linear grippers, but the situation where 2 strings are in there only happens (no more than) 2 times in the stringing process. If I hold the strings in there pretty good they seem to be fine, it will prob just take some trial and error and scrap string to get the feeling down. I will look to see if it needs adjusting, but I think if anything, it just needs cleaning. Thanks!
     
    #78
  29. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    this is the problem. I know that I would normally have the grippers more horizontal, but it still happens when they are and having them lower makes the occurrence easier to see
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/38221599@N05/8529036001
    sometimes it doesn't come all the way out like that, but still slips and loses tension. I bought a hanging scale and can see the tension drop fast when it happens
     
    #79
  30. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    Do you own a starting clamp? What method are you using for mains, btw? Is the starting clamp required for the mains IF you do have one? Looks like your gripper plates don't shut past the housing, so you should be able to get away with hanging a starter on the outside of the linear grippers.
     
    #80
  31. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    No starting clamp just yet, I haven't strung any racquets yet either bc I want to make sure I get this machine good to go as best as possible before I start. I would use Yulitle's method for mains, pulling both ends of the string, clamping one, and re-pulling the other, so a starting clamp is not required. Like I've said, it's only an issue when two strings are in there (as you could see the other string didn't move at all). There's just not as much pressure on the top string as the bottom one. When you say I can clamp the outside, you mean on the short side (the grippers are a rectangle, so the short side to the right), correct? And still clamp the string (in the same fashion as if you were clamping it on the outside of the frame), never the linear grippers, right?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
    #81
  32. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    If all you're trying to achieve is tension before clamping (since you re-pull the other side anyways), you can use a starting clamp on the outside of the frame instead of tensioning two at once. If you had a standard 16x19 with the starting loop in the throat, the starting clamp would go at the head on any side. Tension the other side, and clamp. Move a string or two ahead on this side. Re-pull the side with the starting clamp, and clamp. Continue as normal.

    Obviously, this doesn't make sense if you have no starting clamp :twisted:. Linear grippers aren't designed to nab two strings at once (really, no tensioner is really designed for this in mind), so you're up a creek more or less :(

    To clarify my statement, you'd use a starting clamp on both strings, on the outside of the tensioner (far side from the racquet) to hold the strings from slipping. You'd actually half-bypass the gripper jaws doing this. The purpose of the gripper is to hold the string so tension can be applied, you'd be using a starting clamp to hold the string against the gripper, both as a "backup" to the gripper, and also eliminating the need for the gripper. It's a happy medium, but you can't do that without a starting clamp. You might be able to remove the clamp head from one of your clamps (or use a floater) for the same purpose, but none of these solutions are really ideal.

    Final suggestion would be to try a folded up business card inside your gripper, but it doesn't resolve the uneven gripping on both strings. If you fold the "V" downwards into the gripper, you may even exaggerate it... Just throwing some ideas out there.
     
    #82
  33. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    DD what you are talking about I did to start the mains in this video:

    http://youtu.be/FwcancsvL3E

    Only exception is I never put the starting clamp at the head. The racket in the video above start in the throat and when that happens I tension the two right (long side) mains then move to the left.
     
    #83
  34. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    Bingo, a video is always a bonus :) Starting location isn't really critical, if you like starting in the throat (as you mentioned) this is completely acceptable too. Thelamsheadrep - this is the method i'm trying to describe in my post -- thanks Irvin.
     
    #84
  35. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    I also see from your video that you start the racquet the same way that I am trying to and yet having problems with - pulling both starting mains at once. As far as I can see, you are putting both pieces of string in the gripper, is that correct? Have you ever had problems stringing like that, are there any suggestions you can give me to stop the problem shown in the video I posted?
     
    #85
  36. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    SUCCESS!!! Similar to DD's advise, i ripped off a 2inx2in square off a paper towel (kitchen brand, not bathroom brand), bent it like a taco and ran both strings through it as it sat in the gripper. Worked like a charm, multiple tension tests verified that the strings didn't slip drastically and the accuracy of the tension rod scale. I said drastically because for EVERY drop of the weight, the rod would stop slightly, but noticeably, higher than perfectly horizontal. I read the physics of the drop weight machine thread which says pushing on the tension rod to achieve a perfectly horizontal rod will shoot the tension up, but I didn't find this to be true the way I did it. I pushed the rod down in a gentle and spaced-out manner, and noticed that when I thought it was perfectly horizontal it read the selected tension plus or minus a tenth or so of it was supposed to be. But, pretty much immediately after the perfectly horizontal position was reached, the tension would decrease at about a pound every 2 seconds. I don't know if this is normal, or due to the upper string slipping slowly from the paper towel or a result of the tension rod slowly rising since me pushing it down did not let the machine achieve the perfectly horizontal balance naturally. Does the drum or any part of that area of the machine need to be cleaned, maybe that's preventing the rod from reaching horizontal by itself?

    Anyway, I will probably take some more pics and video of what I am doing so you guys can see what I'm seeing. I am very happy though since the biggest issue I have (as of now, haven't even worked with the clamps and such haha) seems to be solved for the time being.

    By the way, earlier in the thread I did say that the measurement scale on the rod was a sticker, not an engraving. I will probably need to replace it, does anyone have suggestions, can they be purchased? I was thinking that since the sticker values are accurate (for the few clear measurements still on the scale), I could do some measuring and record a new scale on masking tape and place it on a side of the rod that won't allow it to get torn up.
     
    #86
  37. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    It's pretty easy at this point to verify whether or not the string is slipping, just use a sharpie and mark the edge poking out of the back end of the tensioner. If the mark moves, your question is answered. If you're only slightly above horizontal anyways, I'd just leave it alone. If you have clamp drawback, it'll probably come to rest at horizontal in the end. The results are within margin of error if you're within ~5deg anyways. As far as the tension dropping X lbs per Y seconds, this could simply be the string elongating/stretching. If you have scrap kevlar, you can repeat the test and see if there is any/much droop. Kevlar doesn't stretch too much once under tension.

    As far as your sticker, I'd like to see a pic before a final rec, but I'd take a simple set of files and mark the major hashes (5 lb increments or so). Shouldn't take much more than a few seconds per hash. You can also get an engraving pen (or dremel) for reasonably cheaply to mark the majors. You might even get lucky and score something at good will, etc for a few bucks. If the visibility is low, just draw over the file marks with a sharpie and wipe clean, the ink should stay on the 'engravings'
     
    #87

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