Maybe our USTA 12s aren't so bad

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by BirdieLane, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    See this recap:
    http://tenniskalamazoo.blogspot.com/2012/11/usta-juniors-post-8-0-mark-against.html

    Claire was one of the 12-year-olds our current recluse TCF, slammed for style and technique. (But actually, her style and technique are both fantastic)....And now here she is winning matches vs a major D1 college player.

    Interesting also about 12 yo Claire's comment about encountering moon balls from the college player, "She'd rally a little bit and then start moonballing. When I usually play, nobody really moonballs anymore." Claire and AbbyD had a recent 3 set war in the Nike finals that I'll tell you, did not feature any moonballs. Both girls hit aggressively and move forward at every opportunity.

    And a hat tip to Brooke Austin who won the event, becoming the first Junior to do so!

    And it goes a lot deeper than these three. There are a lot of tough players playing USTA events at every age group in both boys and girls.
     
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  2. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I agree in Georgia we have some really good under 12s girls. I dont see many kids hitting moonballs in the 12s division.I do see alot of BAD technique but not hardly any moonballs.As far as picking any one to make it no one knows. At 12 its just way too early to have a clue what they will be at 18 when it matters.
     
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  3. rgwarren

    rgwarren Banned

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    Looks like both Claire Liu and Abby D will be playing at the Nike International at Club Med in about a month against best 12 yr olds in the world that should be a good measuring stick to see how they do. Where's TCF? He never got back to us on the match between his daughter and AD.
     
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  4. Bash and Crash

    Bash and Crash Semi-Pro

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    Says a lot about our up and coming players, and not so much about our current and incoming crop of college players. May be just me, but a top D1 recruit should not lose to a 12yr old, but hey maybe this next crop is strong and that is good to see.
     
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  5. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    That sounds impressive but I'm sure TCF's 7 year old daughter could beat Claire and the D1 college player.
     
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  6. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    Do these girls homeschool?
     
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  7. t135

    t135 Semi-Pro

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    Clearly those particular "D1" players aren't very high level tennis players. And the 12 year olds are.
     
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  8. lala28m

    lala28m New User

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    Hahaha. Duh.
     
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  9. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Good win for this talented 12 y/o. (especially the way she won it)

    Pretty embarrasing for the UofW coach. Goes all the way to Indonesia to recruit a player who doesn't have enough game to beat a 12 year old girl. I bet UofW could have recruited an American 5 star (or even 4 star) player who wouldn't have choked against a player 6 years her junior.

    I've watched Claire win (& lose) in two different matches. She's fabulous. But no way an 18 y/o with game should lose to her. It's nuts to have scholarships going to underperforming non-americans. UofW should be ashamed of itself.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
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  10. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    Check the draw... lots of underperforming Americans losing to the USTA juniors too. And besides, how do you know if the girl from Indonesia took a scholarship or not?
     
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  11. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    The other Juniors appeared to be older & bigger. (big difference between a 12 y/o phenom & a 15 y/o phenom imo.)

    Did any other Div 1 players lose to a 12 y/o Junior? (honestly, I don't recongize all the players, if an American College player lost to a 12 y/o, i stand corrected.)

    I don't know If the non-american representing U of Washington who lost to a 12 y/o girl.... is getting a scholarship or not.
     
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  12. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    There's no need to knock the college players. 14 year old Stefan Kozlov would probably decimate most top D1 men players, but does that mean those D1 players are undeserving of their scholarships?
     
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  13. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Kozlov is one of the top 5 U18s in the country. He could & would beat alot of college players. (Lui is not one of the top 5 U18 girls, although she IS one of the top 3 U12s girls)

    I'm not knocking the player. I'm knocking the UofW & the UofW coach who went half way around the world to recruit a player who can't beat a 12 y/o.

    So is she on scholarship or not?
     
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  14. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    See this thread in the college section :

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=422737

    The women's coach at UW, Jill Hultquist, did an interview where she basically said if she couldn't recruit a top 20 blue chip she had to go international because her conference was so competitive..to summarize my postings, I thought this was bovine excrement...i think I was right. No disrespect to Claire, but this is fairly ridiculous, and a great illustration of why too many coaches are going abroad too soon.
     
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  15. WARPWOODIE

    WARPWOODIE Rookie

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    I still hold to my belief that overseas recruitments are basically junkets for these coaches, plain and simple. C'mon, U of W is a PAC 12 school....don't tell me that they can't pick up blue chips or high 5 stars? :( That is really hard to believe.
     
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  16. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    She played in all 4 junior slams and was ranked in the top 32 in the ITF juniors. Do you seriously think that she isn't on scholarship? She is on a team that is ranked 49 nationally and second from the bottom in the Pac 12.
     
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  17. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    American juniors do well in the younger international tournaments because the parents/coaches focus on winning, while the focus of foreign players is to work on the total development of their game.
     
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  18. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    The Udub coach not interested in American 5 stars, not good enough for her. Only blue chips in the top 20,30. Seems like she make a perfunctory effort to recruit Americans for appearance sake though:

    From her interview "It's hard to rebuild a team if you lose the top 20, 30 American players to the traditional powerhouse programmes each year."

    Sensitive to the ongoing debate, she picks a few select American players each year and offers them scholarships first. If they don't take them she goes international. "

    This is a team that will never be a contender in that division with her as coach.
     
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  19. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    She played all four slams and was only ranked 32 ? I suspect she did not do to well in those slams then. Seems like she comes from a family with big money, ITF point chaser.
     
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  20. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Common knowledge that trips abroad paid by foreign recruiting services.

    Whats passed under the table, who knows.
     
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  21. KevinB9986

    KevinB9986 New User

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    Is there tape of this on youtube or something? I would like to see this. I find this hard to believe. Like think of a different sport. Do you think a 12 year old could make a college hockey team for example?
     
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  22. goober

    goober Legend

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    So Grace ysidora goes out and beats the #27 ranked player in the country from Duke the next day and she is not good enough for college tennis in the US? It was a mistake to give her a scholie? Anybody can have one bad game.

    Her background is pretty impressive despite the loss. #32 world ranking in juniors ITF 2 years ago, career-high WTA singles ranking of No. 607 and doubles ranking of No. 550. She won 2 Futures tournaments in doubles.
    Yeah she suxs, bad pick up. Tons of American girls are equivalent and ready to sign up for Washington's team if they were only offered...
     
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  23. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Good for her. Noone said she wasn't good enough to play college tennis in the US. But she is not the answer for Udub competing against Stanford, USC, etc. Absolutely not. Udub is a bottom dweller in the Pac 12 and is going to stay that way. Instead of competing harder for the best American players, the coach makes token effort and then goes after second rate foreign players that she is convinced are better than American players. How's that working out for them ? If you are going to go with an 75% foreign roster, you better bring home titles. Foreign roster and second to last in the division ? Pathetic. Go get a coach that can recruit. First step to start recruitment American players : stop disrespecting them in interviews.

    As for Ysidora her record, she's an ITF point chaser. Played all four juniors slams, but her best finish was third round. Given the number of high grade ITF events she played, she should be higher than 32.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
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  24. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Would American five stars help Washington beat Stanford, USC, etc.?
     
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  25. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    One step at a time. She needs to worry about Oregon(s), arizona(s) Utah, Washington state, first. Build a solid core roster with 5 stars or four stars and get out of the cellar. Then she would be in a solid position to make a recruiting pitch to blue chips. Right now, she doesn't have much to offer.
     
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  26. jgmellor

    jgmellor New User

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    You seem to have a great deal of knowledge and experience. Where have you coached?
     
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  27. goober

    goober Legend

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    You do realize she took over a 3-17 team and turned it into a winning program? I guess she sux in your book. What teams have you coached and at what levels?
     
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  28. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I wonder what you mean by "Oregon(s)" ? Is that a reference to U of Oregon and Oregon State? If so, I don't think Jill Hultquist needs to spend much time worrying about Oregon State............right? Or maybe you know something.
     
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  29. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Pac 12 record:

    2010 : 3-5
    2011 : 2-6
    2012 : 2-8

    Very odd definition of winning program.


    It is spelled Sucks.

    Pretty pathetic attempt at an Ad-Hominum attack. Argument by resume ? Why dont we just have everyone post there resume, and whoever has the best wins. Everyone else will just shut up an believe what ever they say.
     
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  30. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Yes it was a reference to both. My mistake. No need to worry about the Beavers.
     
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  31. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Hmmmmm. I wonder what the U of Washington final ITA team ranking was in each of 2010--2012?

    If they didn't have a successful program, no way they could be anywhere near the top 75, right?
     
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  32. goober

    goober Legend

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    Very odd way to support your argument. I didn't know that only league results counted in your record.

    Overall record and final rank

    2009 18-8 # 27

    2010 12-7 #29

    2011 13-11 #26

    2012 8-11 rank #49


    Yes overall a winning program. But why do you care so much how they do? Is Washington your alma mater or something? Why don't you rag on ASU, OSU or utah ? If it bothers you so much why you don't contact the AD and start a petition to get her fired?
     
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  33. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Noting odd about. Coaches are paid to compete in their conferences. Even the coach knows that. Read her comments. Who cares if they beat Little Sisters of the poor ? They are a consistent Pac-12 bottom dweller.

    Hmm. I spot a trend. Do you ?


    I could ask you the same thing. Why are you so eager to defend her ? I already said why I don't like her, go reread the thread. I don't have a problem with those other programs becuase, to my knowledge, their coaches haven't made pathetic, obnoxius, whining comments about their inability to compete with American players.

    Read her quote. She said that she can't compete in her conference with the American players she is able to recruit. But she doesn't seem to be able to compete in her conference with her foreign recruits, either.
     
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  34. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    LOL... that's what you get for being honest?
     
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  35. goober

    goober Legend

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    I read her quote. I don't have a problem with it. She is right- it is her job on the line not yours. If the AD doesn't think she is doing a good job then it is up to him to fire her. Sure other coaches may not have said the same thing publicly, but seriously you think they are recruiting foreign players for a different reason?
     
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  36. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    No, I don't doubt that's her reason. I don't remember saying or implying otherwise. I just think she is wrong. Lazy too. I believe that as long as she has that philosophy/attitude, she is going to dwell in the cellar of the Pac 12. Recruiting international players is not going to solve her problem, she's not going to beat the cream of PAC 12 with these players. To do that, she needs to make her program more attractive to the top American players. Don't see how she accomplishes that with her attitude. Get some more Americans and worse case she is still in the cellar of the pac 12 and and a couple of American kids get the educational opportunity they deserve.
     
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  37. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Our family has been through the D1 recruiting process. The existence of foreigners on a team was considered a positive rather than a negative consideration for any particular school. I think it is way too much of a generalization to say that "American" recruits find programs with more Americans to be more attractive.

    Besides, Jill Hultquist is the coach of the women's team at the University of Washington, not the University of America. If anything, the University of Washington has as one of its objectives to educate qualified students from the State of Washington, not from all of America. By the logic offered in other posts, (not that I agree with it) one could more accurately say, "get some more [Americans] Washingtonians and worse case she is still in the cellar of the pac 12 and and a couple of [American] Washington kids get the educational opportunity they deserve."

    Also, by this logic, the University of Washington should not admit any foreigners because they are taking educational opportunities that Washingtonians or Americans....whatever....deserve
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  38. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Wow...we are not going to do this all over again..lol...you are attacking red herrings...a) I never said anything about a total ban on foreigners and yes a limited amount of international players is a good thing, b) and the second argument is not valid because of reciprocity. International colleges don't offer tennis scholarships. In fact her primary recruiting targets should be the best players in her back yard.
     
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  39. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    That is not what I am saying. Her own public comments on American players and international are the issue. This is a coach who is bottom dweller( in her division) who basically has written off American players becuase she's not good enough to recruit top 20-30 blue chips. I'm saying the issue is the coach and not the quality if American players, and that her strategy of recruiting international players to better compete in the Pac 12 is a failure.
     
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  40. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    And those blue chips and five stars in the back yard of Washington State are who, exactly?

    A) I never said that you said anything about a total ban on foreigners

    B) Only America has college sports and scholarships for foreign sports (except Oxford-Cambridge crew and minor exceptions like that). So since there is not reciprocity then................ (I'll let someone else finish the sentence logically, because I can't)

    By the way, someone here said that Jill Hultquist is "lazy" because she is recruiting foreigners instead of Americans. I wonder if someone could run it by me how it is more lazy to recruit foreigners than Americans. Heck, the faction that wants larger National junior draws has stated as one of its arguments that it is too hard for American tennis coaches to recruit in the US if they can't travel to centralized National tournaments......right here in the US of A.

    I didn't bring up this topic. If you don't want to discuss the topic of foreigners in college tennis then, wow, don't bring it up. In the meantime, if the mood strikes me to respond to points that others raise......with which I disagree......I'm going to do it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  41. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I wish any coach good luck recruiting the 30th blue chip. (I know that was probably an inadvertent error, but funny still).

    So if Jill Hultquist recruited from "her back yard" as you advised her to do, how much higher do you think U Washington would rank in the Pac-12 and ITA?
     
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  42. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    There are 26 junior blue chips and 28 sophomore blue chips. I said 30. Yes, that's pretty funny. Got me again there. ROTFL.

    Obviously an impossible question, any answer would be just speculation. I can say with confidence though that they would go no lower that one place further down in the PAC-12 rankings.
     
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  43. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    #43
  44. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    What exactly is your point, other than to be picayune, or to just argue with everything I post for the fun of it ? I know what there policy is, but I guess they don't always follow it. Go count them. There are currently 26 junior blue chips and 28 sophomore blue chips. Or don't. Whatever. Really, who cares. I said 30. WTF is funny about that ??
     
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  45. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    OK, I'll go way out on a limb here and say U Washington has a lot better chance of winning more matches/having a successful program/doing better in the Pac-12 and ITA rankings by recruiting nationally and internationally than by recruiting in their back yard.
     
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  46. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Here is the answer, I guess, from TRN.

    +++ There is one additional criteria that can be met to achieve Blue Chip status. Players ranked in the Top 10 in the six-month period prior to the publication of the ratings will be tabbed as Blue Chips (to recognize highly-ranked players who stopped playing junior events).


    My point? I think all of us should strive for accuracy on factual matters, especially in the Junior forum
     
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  47. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Since we striving for accuracy, I think it only fair that youe review what I wrote. I wrote:

    1) her primary(I didn't say exclusive) recruiting area should be her back yard(could be interpreted various ways, but I think really the Pacific Northwest is a better interpetation, not just Washington State). Every decent recruiting coach knows you have to own your own backyard. This is just common sense. Things is, schools like Arizona State, who finished ahead of Washington, managed to find some players from the PNW.

    2) I said I believe having some international players is a good thing.

    So, yes, if she wants to compete in the PAC-12, she needs to recruit from all three areas, in that order of priority. Her first step is losing the attitude that if they are not top 30, they aren't good enough for her. Has it occurred to her that shes not good enough for the players ? They are second to last place three years running. What I am saying she should get solid five stars and build the programs from there instead of trying to find silver bullets.If she can get the team above 500 and in the top 5 or 6, she can make a decent pitch to blue stars as to why they should come.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  48. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Opinions don't have to be accurate.....don't know how you could verify that anyway except after the fact. I was talking about facts.

    Anyway. Your opinion is that Jill Hultquist should recruit from the Pacific Northwest as her primary priority. I disagree.

    Sure, it is always nice to get home-staters on the roster. But Washington is a pretty weak tennis state and the PNW is a pretty weak section, historically. I really don't think this is good advice. If I am wrong here, U Washington could save a lot of money by recruiting more at Sectionals than Nationals.

    I have no problem with U Washington, and Jill Hultquist specifically....since you called her out personally......recruiting the best available players as the top priority whether they reside in the back yard, or nationally, or internationally.

    I think all coaches of teams in competitive D1 conferences should go after the best available players regardless of residence or nationality...........and in the case of a possible tie, choose a home-stater over a non-home stater.

    In the final analysis, what I think doesn't matter a fig. It's what the AD approves as team policy. For all we know, the UW AD has read this thread and will call in Jill Hultquist tomorrow and tell her to raise the competitiveness of the women's tennis program by putting the primary priority on recruiting in the Pacific Northwest!
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  49. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    No, worst case is that her team loses every game in the PAC-12 and has a worse non-conference record than they have achieved in recent years, also. For example, they could go 3-17 overall.
     
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  50. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Just as a little mathematics exercise, I wonder how many programs can sign the top 30 American juniors every year? Hmm, let's see: These programs have eight full scholarships for women, so they average two per year. The top 15 women's teams could swallow up all of the top 30 recruits every year. I suppose there would be no excuse for the top 15 programs to look overseas, in that case, which would leave none of the top 30 available for other schools.

    But, of course, if you take over a 3-17 program, you are located in nice, rainy Seattle, you cannot offer more scholarship money than anyone else because on the women's side everyone is offering full rides, then obviously you should be able to sign blue chip players if you are a good recruiter and you are not lazy. Right.
     
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