Maybe we need to come to an understanding about ratings

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Ok, I can't disagree with this. Thanks for the input. I guess the only thing for me to do is to find a USTA 3.0 league to play in. (Or get good enough to play in a USTA 3.5 or 4.0 league, because there don't seem to be any USTA 3.0 singles leagues in my immediate vicinity. The overwhelming majority of USTA rated players in Broward County are 4.0 and 4.5, it seems, and in communities outside Fort Lauderdale.) At least then I'll have some first hand experience to base my estimation (of the relationship between USTA and non-USTA NTRP based ratings) on.

    I agree that a WAG (based on absolutely nothing) would be silly. But the notion that NTRP-based ratings refer to similar playing abilities in non-USTA and USTA leagues does have a certain non-WAG, albeit still rather flimsy, basis. So, I don't think it's quite as bad as comparing apples and oranges, but more like cumquats and oranges. :)
     
  2. TomT

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    @ SweetH2O, thanks for the info.
     
  3. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I see. There could be lots of players who have improved to levels beyond their current official ratings. So when do you expect to be bumped up, and what level will you be put at?
     
  4. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I will probably be a 3.5 YER since I played 3.5 league as a 3.0 and won more than a few times. I'm not 100% sure ill be bumped, but doing it this way expedites the process and is more than most people will do. Most people want to stay as low as possible as long as possible. Very rarely will you see this in USTA, a computer rated player playing a level up because they actually want to move up. You will see self-rates or computers trying to move down most of the time.

    I will voluntarily expedite my rating without self rating up as long as I can which is probably to 4.0. I cant quite say whether or not ill be a good 4.5 ever, but I think I can be a good 4.0 for sure and plan on moving out of 3.5 in 1-2 years. It would probably take me 5 years to move up from 4.0 to 4.5 if I want to be any good.
     
  5. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    We actually played "8.0" tonight and its pretty clear that certain parts of my game become exposed that I cant hold my own as a 4.0 yet.

    We played two high school kids (one 3.5 and one 4.0) but the 4.0 is probably closer to a 4.5 since hes a state champ at 4.0. I played with a strong 4.0 senior (hes late 50's) and he really held us up, especially for someone his age.

    The reason why we lost is because my serves started falling apart early in the second set. I had to serve excessively well for my partner to have any chance at the net and serving anything less than 75 meant almost an immediate put away on the Ad side (where the 4.0 kid was playing).

    We lost (7-5)(6-2)

    I had to average at least 90 mph on both my serves whether its a big first and a solid second, or two great second serves. This caused lots of double faulting and no, "just getting it in" doesnt work at this level. haha.

    I'm definitely not ready for 4.0 yet.
     
  6. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    500 is what they tell kiddies in stat101 so they dont get confused by distribution functions

    its like when u tell the grade six kiddies 'assume pi is 3.14'
     
  7. floridatennisdude

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    I've seen it explained in 300 and 600 level course textbooks. The logic is tough to dispute in normal distribution analysis via central limit theorem. I'm not going to preach against the rationale, especially in a tennis thread.
     
  8. esgee48

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    I don't agree nor disagree with 500 being the magic number. I've seen sample sizes for binary Y/N as low as 50. If you assume normality, then there are kurtosis and skewness calculations that will tell you if your sampling mimics the true population. If these calculations tell you that your sample is not normal (e.g. using SAS' Survey Select Proc), then you have to resort to Non-Parametric testing, which can still tell you if you can distinguish between 3.0, 3.5, etc at local vs. NTRP level. Assuming 95% confidence intervals, they're probably going to be close except for the outliers in each distribution. (2 cents from a retired guy with too much statistical background. :???:)
     
  9. tennis_ocd

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    You certainly don't need a 90 mph avg speed serve to win at 4.0 doubles ;)
     
  10. OrangePower

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    Yup, in fact I doubt whether a majority of 4.0s can even get to 90 mph consistently on 1st serve, let alone average it. My buddies and I (all 4.5s) were playing around with the radar gun at the club, and most topped out at low to mid 90's. And that's their fastest recorded "in" serve. I have one of the stronger serves; I barely cracked 100 a couple of times, but could not do it consistently. I have a good 2nd serve also, but those were not breaking 90.
     
  11. tennis_ocd

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    Forget standardizing and inflated NTRP ratings; how about we come to an agreement on a standard mph measurement? :) 20 mph less than what a guy advertises?

    It makes watching what Venus Williams can do so very depressing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  12. floridatennisdude

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    But then you're just going off a table in the back of a book. Teflon already stated that Pi can't just be 3.14!

    Good input ol scholar!
     
  13. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Bases on what, lol. Against scrubs, maybe. I dont measure myself against below average players. Also, in doubles at 8.0, your serve and return of serve are probably the most important things. This isnt 3.5 or below where the areas of some peoples games are totally lacking. Any ball thats not returned well will be put away; immediately. Any ball thats not served well will be punished.

    To be fair, the 4.0 (closer to 4.5) kid was serving between 90 and 75, but had lots of action on his ball. He also served both of our backhands to much success setting up lots of easy putaways for his 3.5 partner. Running around to a forehand was impossible on his first serve and quite a bit risky on his second. I am not able to do that yet on someone who can move as fast as him without risking lots of doubles. I was doubling and he was not. That's where the difference was.

    When I say "average" I mean over both serves, whether I choose a big first (lets say 100) and a normal second (lets say 80), or if I choose to serve two "aggressive second serves" (lets say 90 on both).

    No one served any "aces", but there were many serves that were punished off weak returns, or balls that were struck and did not go back into play.

    If my serve happened to be going extremely well, we may have been able to win. By well I mean 110-120 on demand out-wides and zero doubles serving 75-80 minimum.

    My serve is probably the strongest part of my game... but its also the weakest part at the same time. It's the "main gun" as I call it. If the main gun is dialed in, it's easy sailing. If the main gun is down... well... haha.
     
  14. OrangePower

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    So you've actually measured your serve speed with a radar gun?

    I call BS. I've watched your video. You did not serve, but judging by the rest of your game, I just don't see you having the technique it would take to serve as big as you claim.
     
  15. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Sure, whatever you say. lol. I love your type on the internet. You excellent "technique analyzers" can always tell the difference between a 4.5 and a 5.5 just by watching 3 forehands from side view on a video filmed by a potato.

    But I will entertain your nonsense just because its a Thursday night and im bored.

    1) I didnt serve any points because the purpose of the video was not for me to try and serve big to and "win" points that way. The purpose of the video was to receive serve and try to pound out points to hard way, not the easier way by being on serve.

    2) I guess with my eyes, and you're right, I havnt radar gunned it. But also, how can you guess my serve speeds if you've never even seen me serve? lol. You're basing ground strokes as a method for determining my serve power? lol. You have to be trolling.

    3) I was digging around for the raw footage and found some of the trimmed pieces left over. I then looked online to find the calculators for serve speed based on FPS and # of frames.


    When I initially did my calculations... it turned out I was serving only 41 mph... WTF? :confused:

    But then I realized that the video is 50 FPS and not 25 like the tooltip says. When I corrected the error, it turns out that my serves were going about 82 miles an hour, which is consistent for my second serves.

    I know I definitely dont serve 40 mph so I had to figure out what the discrepancy was. When I click "next frame" and wait for it to hit an exact second, I counted the number of "next frame clicks" until the second changed. It was 49. I know that there are 30 clicks from the point the ball leaves my racket till the point where it hits the ground. There are 50 clicks between second marks. 30 frames at 50 fps at a distance of 61 ft.

    I skipped through the footage to find my going for something big but I couldnt find anything. The one video of me serving it from the side so its useless for trying to get an approximate speed from it.

    So there you have it. Sure, no video, but you're either trolling, stupid, or just making trouble with your wild assumptions. In any of those cases, id rather not waste any more effort uploading a video just to prove myself. Take it or leave it.
     
  16. floridatennisdude

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    I just have a general rule that whenever anyone on TT claims to be a 4.0 with a 120mph serve, to call BS. 120 is near world class speed.

    In my many years of rec tennis, I have only faced a serve this big once from a solid 5.0 in 9.5 combo. Below the 5.0 level, this big of a serve is highly unlikely. Even 100mph for a 4.0 would be impressive.
     
  17. tennis_ocd

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    Yes, a 120 mph on demand out-wides may get you a few 3.5/4.0 service games.... even a few on tour. :) (I initially read the 120 as kph which for 3.5, even 4.0 with placement is sound enough to win at doubles.) Of course no one knows your actual speeds but....

    I enjoy discussing rec level doubles strategy..... This is an interesting view and I assume you have an active net person? (My most important thing.) Without that, the serve is almost useless.

    Found it interesting that your post game analysis you attribute being beaten by serve returns. Where was the guy returning?! (The only time I've ever really been concerned with serve returning is on short wide service dinks (typically weak mixed) that open angles that a slow server can't move up and cover.) With four evenly matched 4.0s the returner could self drop feed "returns" and he shouldn't be able to do much more than start a neutral point. There simply isn't all that much damage a returner can do; even trying too much isn't percentage doubles - just get the ball back.
     
  18. OrangePower

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    No, I don't claim to be able to tell your rating from a few shots. Your rating is based on your results in matches, not on how pretty your strokes look.

    But, I can tell whether you are hitting with good technique or not. And from that, I can deduce that you cannot hit a 120mph serve. Because to get that kind of speed you need excellent serve technique, no matter how strong you are. So unless your serve technique is for some reason miles ahead of your groundstroke technique as in the video, sorry, you're not hitting 120mph anytime soon.

    My guess is you've never actually faced a 120mph serve and have no idea what it really looks like. It would actually benefit your game to get access to a radar gun - you will be able to see where you stand, and more importantly, you will be able to take measurements as your technique gets better and see the improved results reflected in your speed.


    The pro at a local club was a top 20 DI player, now in his mid-30s. He can consistently clock 118mph. That's the fastest I've faced in matchplay, other than maybe a freak one-off serve.
     
  19. floridatennisdude

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    ^^^yea, I think folks see pros clicking 120 on TV and think their biggest serve has to be that fast. No way. I'm a 4.5 and rely on my serve. If I'm in the high 90's on a flat 1st, I'd be surprised. I just don't have the leg drive that the pros do. They play a different type of game than me. Quicker, faster, with more spin. It is why they are pros.
     
  20. tennis_ocd

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    If I follow your numbers, 30/50 = .6 sec from racket impact to ground; distance is 61 ft. 61ft./.6s = 69 mph (after the conversions.) Noted that this would be an average speed over distance. Actual radar numbers are grasped immediately upon racket strike and probably drop significantly as ball moves forward. This, with some placement, would be a solid 3.5 level real life serve.
     
  21. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    lol, im guessing you're asking about the 4.0 state high school champ (who I believe should still be a 4.5 lol)

    No one was dinking anything. This was a slugfest. The "4.5" actually tried to drop us quite a bit but wasnt doing so well at it. I put away nearly all of his failed droppers. I'm guessing it figured hed practice it once they knew they had it in the bag.

    This was not a "get the ball back" type of game. Any sitter would be put away immediately by any of the players except maybe the kid on the other team. If you were going net, you better be inside the service box of be able to flatten out that forehand because those guys do not flinch. From my end, the 4.5 kid was serving so well that his net partner could have an easy time. The 3.5 kid served well enough that I couldnt punish it for a winner. My "good" serving in the first set was why we lost 7-5 and once that fell apart we lost the second 6-2. With the 4.5 kid returning, you cannot serve a 70 mph serve with no movement. You just cannot, you might as well double trying for two 90 mph serves.

    Oh, I wasnt aware that anyone who isnt a top D1 player cannot serve 120+

    But then again, you're one of those amazing people who can tell my serve potential based off a forehand.

    You cant be that stupid, can you?

    1) You can definitely be top 20 in D1 with a steady 118 mph serve. That doesnt mean that's the fastest he can serve. That doesnt mean anyone who isnt top 20 D1 cant serve that fast either.

    2) You assume that the biggest forehands ive hit in my videos are as fast as I can hit them. You are wrong. Clock the average speed of pro forehand, it aint 90 mph lol, the same way the average speed of the serve isnt 145 mph.

    3) I dont try to serve that fast usually because its not needed. At this level, I can serve 90 as a first, and 60 as a second and no one will punish it. When im playing an average of 4.0 per player doubles match, you cannot serve like that, not if your serve is one of your stronger points.

    4) Ball speed is not indicative of racket head speed. 80 and flat is not the same as 80 and good movement. A lot of my serves are in the 70 to 80 mph range and none of those are flat serves. When I flatten out my swing I assure you I can break 100 quite easily.

    They dont measure by the "average" speed. They measure speed at face. There is no way someone is "averaging" a 150 mph ball like you see on TV, lol.

    And yes, its a good serve for 3.5 league. It is not a good serve in 8.0 doubles against a kid who should/will be a 4.5 soon enough.
     
  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Seriously . . . Why is it that 100% of the rec players who come here and fabricate a serve speed are men?

    You just do not see women come to TT and tell us they are 4.0s with 100 mph serves and six foot kickers. But 3.5 men will try to get you to believe their serve at the local club rivals that of Nadal.

    What the heck?
     
  23. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    because women are weak and even pro females do not have serve speeds that are anything to be proud of
     
  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Good one, Tom......:):)
    Girls brag about their outfits, n how they found them at a discount...:confused:
     
  25. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Hey, I brag that my serve is as good as Serena's. It's even faster when I'm wearing my cat suit and flesh color underwear.
     
  26. TomT

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    Are those official Talk Tennis computer generated numbers? :)
     
  27. OrangePower

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    Yup. Nothing amazing about it. Serving 120 requires near perfect technique. You don't have great technique. That's pretty much it. Nothing personal; I don't have perfect technique either. You can believe what you want. But you are doing yourself no favors by deluding yourself. Good luck.
     
  28. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Women are smarter, and dont have a hang up on serve speed as part of their macho ego.
     
  29. TomT

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    I doubt that NTRPolice can serve 110 mph. But then he didn't say that he could, did he? The videos he provided were from a couple of months ago. I do think that with his athletic ability and energy it's quite possible for him to be serving at an average (first serve) near 100 mph at this time. Which, I think, is pretty good.

    I remember reading something that put the average of pro men's first serves at around 107 mph.

    I would say that the average NTRP 3.0 player's serve is somewhat less than 70 mph.

    Here's me hitting a few practice serves, which, I'm guessing, are around 70 to 75 mph:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtXdhfDDOBQ
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  30. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I can definitely serve 110, but there are a lot of things people in this thread are not taking into consideration because they are playing dumb, or are just dumb and cant help it.

    1) Anything faster than 110 for me is just luck. I cannot "choose to serve 135" by hitting it extra flat or anything like that. I either go for "as flat as possible" and if its a good one, it will definitely be over 100.

    2) That "flat serve" serve is just not practical for me. While a touring pro can definitely hit 120 on a regular basis, I cannot for several reasons.

    -I'm short. The shorter you are, the less area you have to serve into, especially on a flat serve.
    -Conditioning. It takes a huge toll on the shoulder and legs to be able to keep up a powerful first serve.
    -Consistency. My "ideal" first serve just isnt consistent enough to be used. You cannot have a first serve percentage of 20% or less at ANY level without risking being easily broken by any decent player.

    3) People on this forum seem to be think that 4.0 senior leagues are where you will sample the greatest of all players outside of college. Anyone who is in college is immortal. Anything they cant believe, they immediately dismiss as impossible; sandbagger; unsportsmanlike; ect.

    4) They see me hitting 70 mph forehand winners from behind the baseline and immediately think... "well, the forehand wasnt 95 mph, so he cant possibly serve 100 lols I CALL BS!!!"

    I'm pretty sure I can hit over 70 mph groundstrokes. However, trying to do so is about as consistent as me trying to hit 120+ serves. Also, people seem to forget that the dynamics of a rally are much more different in practice than in a point.

    I do have a "flat forehand" and I do use it time to time the same way I have a flat serve. It's just not practical for me. Of all the strokes I need to learn right now, the "lets wow the audience with a huge serve or a huge return with a reckless swing" is not one of them.

    I'm past the point of trying to impress people TBH. I could easily make a video of me taking some wild swings on various strokes just to shut these idiots up and prove my point. I just dont care enough to do so.

    If they want to believe that I cant possibly hit 110 on a serve because of the way I hit a forehand, thats fine.
     
  31. floridatennisdude

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    ^^^I still don't believe you can hit 110 with any kind of accuracy. I would love to see a video with you hitting 20 first serves in a row. If they are that heavy, I can't imagine more than 3 would go in.

    I respect your game. You have strokes that look like they can handle 4.0 play. I just don't buy the serve speed claim.
     
  32. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I never ever claimed that I can serve 110 all day every day. Remember, the only leagues ive played are 3.0/6.0 and 3.5/7.0 and i've never needed to use that huge serve before. I know I have it, ive just never needed to use it.

    We effectively played 4.0/8.0, with an 18 year old kid who should probably be a 4.5. This is the whole reason for me going on this rant; that I had to serve like a 4.5 and risk double faulting. Two modes: 110+ and 70+, or 90+ and 90+. One big first and a normal second, or two big seconds.



    You cant backtrack now and say "well, I believe you can now, but not with consistency and accuracy." because i've been saying that all along.

    Go back to your "i've seen your forehand, there's no way you can physically serve 110." argument. lol.
     
  33. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    ^^^i didn't say that, believe you're referring to Orange. My point was that I am at least a half - full rating higher than you and I don't get 100+ serves hit at me in 8.5 combo. 9.5 I have faced something close.

    I could see you putting low 90's on the gun. That is all that I have got (6'3, 205lb) and you look pretty athletic, just shorter and stockier than me. I'm just not buying 110+. I don't think you're grasping how big of a ball that is. If a 4.0 is hitting that and making 40-50%, they wouldn't get broken ever.
     
  34. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    They don't have radar guns around courts generally, but the couple of times I've been clocked, I hit 106 and 118. I'm a shorty 5'7" and closing in momentarily on social security. Playing on one leg, my serve is my weapon--if you can serve they have to play you. It's not so much hight that gives tall guys a service advantage, it's their long monkey like arms creating more leverage thus power--serving you hit up on the ball not down. Since this is all supposition based on viewing a video, I think my serve is as good as Serena's from watching her on TV and I've got a big one, TV that is. If anyone wants to round her up and deliver her to my door, we can have a serving have a contest--down in the desert this winter would work for me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  35. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, man.

    I'm sorry, but there is no way a 3.5 or 4.0 male player is serving "110-120 on demand out-wides and zero doubles serving 75-80 minimum."

    Why do people even say things like this? It's ridiculous. It requires years of training, perfect technique.

    You know, I started a thread here a few years back about serve speeds. The Legg Mason open had a serving contest, and they invited some league players to hit their best serves with the speed gun. I don't remember the actual numbers, but a couple of the contestants were 4.0 guys. They did not break 100 mph, and their serves did not go in.

    Being able to hit a fast serve is utterly pointless and unremarkable if it doesn't go in. It's like me talking about my great three-point jump shot that never goes in the hoop.
     
  36. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Want to bet young lady? First of all your fast one is going down the T and not out wide. Zero doubles?--maybe a couple--if you don't serve an occasional double fault you're not trying hard enough.

    Years of training and perfect technique--yes. The players who can do this aren't normally in the stands of Legg Masons, responding to such challenges--they are playing at an age group tournament somewhere and probably watching the Legg Mason between matches at a club's player's lounge.
     
  37. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Ahh, you're right. For some reason I think Orange is from Florida and whenever I see your name it just reminds me of it.

    I definitely know how big that ball is. In fact, the first time I tried receiving a ball like that, I had to catch it with my left hand because I couldnt get out of the way in time, because im used to being able to run around peoples first serves more often then not. A few tries later, I dropped my racket after I tried to frame the return. This is from an ex D1 player, who would have to self rate 5.0, but is probably a 4.5 due to aging 10 years and being a little out of practice, plus a rotator cuff injury.

    1) If I serve 70-90 mph on both serves, I will almost never double fault, maybe once a set.

    2) If I try to serve 110+, I will have to be serving particularly well to have it go in. It's a low % shot. Also, serving a decent second serve puts me at risk for a double. I dont play this "tap over" nonsense and my serves never, ever, go slower than 70 under normal circumstances. There is also a lot of movement on those balls too.

    3) Serve contests. lol. So many things wrong with this. I've seen Andy Roddick serve the ball 10 ft. long in a "serve contest" before, and that ball was radar gunned at like 90. I cant believe you would even mention that as if its some type of evidence.

    4) There is another video on my channel where I am serving. Sure, you cannot see the ball, but on a few you can hear my coach saying things like

    "Wow! I shouldnt have told you!"
    and
    "That was Ivo Karlovic."

    Now, of course im not trying to claim that's proof I can serve 150, but c'mon, you really think hes saying that if im serving 90? lol.

    Also, listen to the sound. Yeah, they're flat practice balls, but we're in an open court. It's not an indoor court so the sound is not amplified.


    5) You're right. It is pointless if it doesnt go in. It's why I dont use it. It's not ready for play yet. If you've read my posts in this thread, its about being forced to use it because of a good returner.

    You try serve 75-85 mph serves to an 18 year old 4.5. It dont matter how much movement you have on it. He'll home in on them eventually. In this situation, id rather try and double, than let me partner at the net hangout downrange.
     
  38. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    :rolleyes:          
     
  39. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ok the Ivo Karlovic reference makes me laugh out loud. Your coach says that based on his naked-eye assessment and you see it as some basis for saying you are serving at the speeds you are claiming?

    At the finals of 3.5 Nationals, people in the stands were yelling to me, "Go, Venus!"

    I guess that means I have the movement of a pro.
     
  40. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    It was probably because of your kick serve!
     
  41. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Well, if you think a USPTA-1 certified coach who played D1 tennis for two teams says "That was Ivo Karlovic" when I hit a serve that goes 90 mph that's up to you.

    The video was taken from the side view like that because I was changing up things in my serve trying to make it more consistent so there are no shots of the actual serve.

    3.5 super senior mixed nationals participation does make you some kinda expert though.
     
  42. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    A guy you are paying to help you get better compares you to one of the fastest servers ever and you use this as proof?

    Just last week in a clinic a pro said something similar to me ... I know he was just try to make Me feel better and spend more money ... The proof is In The video ....
     
  43. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, Dizz.

    Dont you understand that this particular coach played Div. 1 college ball for *two whole teams* and so can recognize a Karlovic-level serve with the naked eye?

    The ATP is thinking of ditching its speed guns and just using that guy. He has a gift, I tell ya. A gift.
     
  44. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I think I love you Venus
     
  45. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    So, this coach that played college ball said something about Karlovic when you served, so that's somehow proof that you were serving at least 110, and not 90, even though Karlovic serves like 150, but the coach would exaggerate some (unless you really were serving 150 lol) but not that much, because, well, he just wouldn't. This is your argument?

    And I'm sure he wouldn't just say the name of a big server as encouragement when he recognizes that you just hit a good, hard serve *for you* in practice, regardless of how fast a radar gun would have said it was, since that would be ridiculous as well I guess?
     
  46. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    I'm with you. It depends on what's getting measured.

    It's ironic that @floridatennisdude is throwing all the non-USTA ratings under the bus - from people I know and the knowledgeable FL players on these boards I was going to use the FL ranking systems as an example of that a large local/regional group is just as significant.

    So where's the link to the video of the 3.5 (great thread hijack by the way) hitting 110+ serves? This I gotta see.
     
  47. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    It's all relative. He might say "Wow, that was DelPo" when a paraplegic hits a 30 mph forehand, where as I may hit a 70 mph forehand. My argument isnt that "he wouldnt exaggerate that much", my argument is that "that was a fast speed, relative to who hit it".

    The fact that every one here thinks its so impossible that anyone rated lower than them cant possibly be better is what keeps me going in this thread. It seems that if a 4.0 serves 90 mph, then a 5.0 serves 110, so... a 3.0 serves 70 MAX!

    There's no way that serve was even 130, but it sure as hell wasnt 90. You can tell by the sound, for a few reasons...

    1) I swing just has hard on my first serves as I do on my second. Only difference is the path of the racket face, which is why my second serves never have that "pop" that you hear when the face totally squares up.

    2) I was working on my serves in that video, which is why speed wasnt being focused on. Any decent players knows that you build a second serve before you mess around with your first. I took the liberty of trying two flat serves in there just to compare.

    3) This was filmed outside in an open environment, not some amplified indoor court.

    There isnt a video that actually shows the serve in a way that can be measured. I'm not making a video just to prove my point because even if I did, the video would either be "fake" in some say, or it would be "you're not t a 3.0 you're a sandbagger, it doesnt count." because apparently on the TT forums, 3.5 super senior mixed national champions know what they're talking about.
     
  48. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    People are just skeptical of your mph-related serving claims because they are inconsistent with their own experiences playing people at the level you claim to be at, and they find your 'evidence' of the sound of an off-camera serve and a coach that references Karlovic uncompelling, especially from someone who openly admits to never having clocked his own serve with a radar gun.

    Sorry if that continues to infuriate you that people decide to believe what they've experienced first hand over what some random stranger on the internet is claiming when the two things are conflicting.
     
  49. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    You dont need a radar gun. A serve that is going 80 clearly looks slower than a serve that is going 110. If you have seen them both, its quite easy to distinguish between the two.

    Just to entertain the thought, I did measure using the "FPS" formula available on the internet. It first came out that I was serving 41 mph, but then I realized the FPS was 50 and not 25. If I can produce a quality 82 mph second serve, I dont see what is so hard to believe about me squaring up the racket face and serving 110 on a good go.

    I explained it many times over. If you guys are skeptical thats fine. I tell people im a 3.0 and they're skeptical of that too, lol.

    It doesnt infuriate me, it makes me laugh if anything. There are too many people who base the possibilities of others based on their own experience. They see 5.0's serving 110, so that must be mutually exclusive to 5.0's, that is their logic. They havnt seen anything like that in 3.5 super seniors, so it CANT EXIST!

    They forget that not every college-able player has played college. I didnt get a chance to start tennis early in life. I just started messing with it in high school. By the time I took tennis serious, I was well over 25, im 28 now.

    But I didnt play college! I'm not a 5.0! It's not POSSIBLE!
     
  50. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Well said. And the fact that he doesn't go out and make a decent video is very telling.

    You have entered the Doth Protest Too Much Zone. And you just busted yourself - you admit you only have a few yrs of tennis experience. The current popular saying 'you don't know what you don't know' comes to mind. Many of us have been around the game a long time and know what it takes to progress and know what it takes to hit a 110+ serve. If you could pull the kinetic chain together to do that you'd at least have a great FH too (much easier stroke) - no way you'd be playing 3.0/3.5.
     

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