Maybe we need to come to an understanding about ratings

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Part of my NTRPolice service claim doubts comes from the facts:

    3.0C rated player

    Video evidence of 4.0 capable strokes

    Obvious baseline athletic ability (video)

    Adding a 110 heater and a 90 placed serve would be a very good 4.0 player, probably more like a 4.5. So, I'm just saying that something ain't right. And I'm going with the part that I haven't seen.
     
  2. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    If you've never confirmed what a real 110 or 80 mph serve looks like (with a radar gun), how are you so sure the serves you think are 110 and 80 aren't actually 95 and 65 mphs, respectively? You aren't.


    You are putting waaay to much faith in this. Are you sure this method is proper to even apply to get an accurate mph estimate on a tennis serve, given that it is a different method entirely for how serve speeds are usually calculated? Did you bother to check the margin of error on this method? Are you sure you did the math right?

    It's not about what can or can not possibly exist. It's about what's likely. From my perspective, it is more likely that you are mistaken about what you believe to be your (and your opponents) actual serve speeds than it is that you are right and somehow some true 3.0 who also can hit 110 mph on a 1st serve and has a consistent 80mph 2nd serve.

    I am an 29 year old 3.5, so I've never played a seniors match. I don't have a serve that comes anywhere close to fitting your descriptions of your own, and haven't come across any 3.5s who do, much less 3.0s, and the 4.0s that I know don't fit that serving description either. It's still possible that what you are saying is actually accurate, but it just isn't likely in my opinion.

    It apparently also doesn't seem likley to anyone else that has said anything about the issue, with all of them having their own personal experiences, with apparently your claims being inconsistent with all of those experiences as well.
     
  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    There's so much here to like. Where is a gal to start?

    My extra most favorite part is the explanation that OP *can* hit 110 mph serves, but he just doesn't want to. Doesn't need to, you see. He can dominate 3.0 and compete at 3.5 without the Big Ivo Gun.

    Um, yah. I get it. You could step up to the line at 3.5 and bring that Karlovic-esque serve, hold at love every time ('cause no way can a 3.0 or 3.5 return that kind of serve), and never lose.

    What's that? You can't step up to the line and bring that big bad serve? Then you are no different than anyone else who *cannot serve 110.*

    Good lord on a stick. I play mixed. I have had to try to return the serves of guys who were 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5. Despite my fragile, octogenarian status (huge eye roll), I can return reasonable numbers of the serves of all of those gentlemen with the notable exception of the 4.5 men. The 4.5 guys make me look foolish.

    Trust me, man. If the highest competitive level you are playing is 7.0 men's, you have no clue what a 110 serve out wide looks like. You haven't been hitting them, and you haven't been receiving them. And neither have I.

    Look. I'm not a big fan of dissing someone's NTRP level or having higher-ranked players dismissing the experiences of lower-ranked ones. We all have seen posters who talk about their scorching FH at 3.0 ladies. What those posters mean is that their FH is a scorcher *for their level.* That's how we should interpret such remarks.

    You, however, have gone too far. Instead of saying your serve is fast (for its level), which is subjective, you have tried to use an objective measure. I am fully prepared to believe your serve is strong for your level. 110 out wide by objective measure? Nah. Not a chance.
     
  4. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Dude, you keep missing the point. You are right that there is no absolute link between service speed and rating level. But, there is a very strong link between service speed and service technique. In general, lower rated players do not have great technique. There are exceptions as always. But in your case, you have ok but not great technique on your strokes from what we saw in the video, so it seems a fair assumption that you similarly have ok but not great technique on your serve.

    You keep avoiding this point. Why don't you address it directly - do you think your serve technique is comparable to your coach's, for example?

    See, again this is what we are saying. Given when you started playing, and how long you've been taking is seriously for, it is very unlikely that you have developed the technique needed to serve the way you claim.

    Read the bolded bit again - that sums it up.
     
  5. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Did I read that correctly: NTRPolice is a 3.0? Also, where is the video of his serve, and also of his forehand? Thx.
     
  6. db10s

    db10s Hall of Fame

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    Agreed, I just read the whole thread and I was waiting for somebody to say that.
     
  7. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    A very worldly and opinionated 3.0 who has been playing for two years with a serve rivaling ivo and a world class coach that can sense serve speed with his eyes closed.
     
  8. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Okay, I understand. I see these guys on golf forums too. ;)
     
  9. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I'm curious. What do the golfers say? Do they all drive farther than Tiger Woods?

    Do they ever brag about their short games? I'm guessing not, as that would be as common as a 3.0 rec player bragging about their volleys.
     
  10. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Internet golfers all seem to swing at 115-120 mph (PGA Tour average is 113 mph), hit their drives in the 290-310 range (low handicap golfers hit their drives an average distance of around 230 yards). They tend to say they are above average ball strikers, but being hel back by bad chipping/putting skills. In other words, they excel at the "manly" part of the game but are deficient in the skill categories.

    You know, like they can blast serves at 110 mph, but are 3.0 NTRP. ;)
     
  11. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I've read all the responses in this thread, but this one makes me curious. What do you mean by "something aint right?". If you're meaning to say that "im not a 3.0" then you're right, but my NTRP rating is 3.0C and that is not a bogus account.

    I feel I am no longer a 3.0 so elected not to play this seasons adult league and I played 3.5 (as a 3.0 instead) and anticipated the rating increase by playing up. I feel like I am top tier of the 3.0's and can easily get better. I feel like playing 3.0 another year would just be a waste of time since I have other goals im trying to reach.

    I want to be 4.0 by the time im 30, and 4.5 by the time im 35 so I can still be more or less competitive.




    To everyone else in this thread:

    Laugh and be as skeptical as you want. Not everyone is as bad as you think they are. People keep pretending to be dumber and dumber as threads go on and im not going to keep repeating myself.

    My serve goes 70 tops.
    My forehand is garbage.
    I have no backhand except a moonball slice.

    You win. I cant possibly know or do anything you say I cant.
     
  12. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    No, I believe you are a 3.0C. I believe you will be a 3.5. I still don't believe that you have a world class serve, as you continue to claim.
     
  13. spot

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    NTRPolice- I just think that if you bookmark this page and come back to it in a couple years that you will find it highly entertaining how good you used to think you were.

    I also just find it puzzling why you are so sure that you can serve 110 without really any justification for it. You haven't talked about being measured with a radar gun. You didn't like the results when you tried to measure it using the video method. I haven't seen where your coach was telling you that you serve 110. You certainly haven't faced anything close to a 110mph serve. I just find it interesting that you are so sure that you can do it. This is a long thread so maybe I just missed the part where you told us this but I do think it is interesting.
     
  14. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah. He certainly won't be the first to realize how dang hard it is to go from a 3.0C to a 4.5C.

    I was shocked how many years it took to improve from 3.0C to 4.0C. It took genuine commitment to striking the ball differently, which in turn took a sick amount of instruction and practice. It was just so hard to generate any kind of ball that would bother the higher-level (or even more experienced) players.

    I consider 4.5 to be completely out of the question. Even for guys, it takes some real work to get up to 4.5.
     
  15. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    This is significant regarding Cindy's OP premise that NTRP-based, USTA computer ratings are the truest index of relative playing strength. I have to wonder how many more thousands of players nationwide have NTRP-based USTA C ratings are playing above (or below) the average or normal playing strength for those ratings.

    I think that doing that is to your credit, and I would expect that you will be bumped up accordingly.

    I agree, my impression on watching all your videos was that you clearly have above 3.0 skills, and, as you noted, probably closer to 4.0 than 3.5. 3.0s don't hit backhands like the one you hit against the 5.0 guy, and, watching the groundstroke drill it looks to me like you have the potential to be a winner at 4.0. I'm not going to say anything about your serve except that your serving motion (from, what, 2 months ago?) looks like it can potentially generate consistent serves in the 90 + mph range, and since you're getting instuction and seem quite motivated to improve, then I fully expect that you can be consistently hitting serves approaching or maybe even exceeding 100 mph in match play. It's just a matter of court time and concentrated practice.

    You said you're 28? So, I see no reason why you can't be a bona fide 4.0 before you're 30. I think it really is just a matter of the number of quality hours you're able and willing to spend on the court.

    Except me and a few others? That is, I think I've been pretty fair in assessing your abilities and potential (which, as I said, looks very promising to me).

    Ok, maybe some posters were a bit rough on you, but I think it's all in fun. And even I am not going to believe that you can hit a 110 mph serve (in or out) unless you post some video evidence.

    Anyway, it's been a fun thread to read and participate in. :)
     
  16. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    People seem to forget when a pro serves 110 that there is still a significant amount of spin on it. When Roddick, Dent or Karlovic serves 150, they are not trying to put spin on it at all.

    My claims of 110 are me squaring up the face at impact with the sole intention of trying to serve as flat (and fast) as possible. The reason why most people dont serve like this is because its inconsistent, its risky, and you need to beat them with the pace because the shot is not hard to return.


    Cindy is probably the best of the posters in this thread. 3.0 to 4.5 is hard to get to? Of course, but 3.0 to 4.0 should be pretty easy for anyone who isnt a scrub, who tries, and who doesnt game the system, and isnt 60 years old. I've gone from a 3.0 to close to a 4.0 in ability in 2 years. I have another two years to get to 4.0. Then I have 5 years to get to 4.5 by which time ill be around 35 years old. 4.5 is "out of the question"? lol, maybe for you.

    I love how everyone seems to think that I havnt faced a 110 mph serve, you know, because I only play league once a week.

    I play tennis 5 days a week minimum, and my skill of opponents varies from 3.0 super seniors to 5.0 college players. I've hit in the park before, where some 4.5/5.0 active college players needed a 4th, and im not talking about the guy in my videos.

    Cindy. LOL. Of all people in this thread, you're the one I want to play a set with the most. I even have this mental picture of what you look like. I would risk double faulting 4 times in a row just to get a good flat one into your body and watch you almost fall over because you cant get out of the way in time, or watch you misjudge a second serve and almost get hit in the face.

    No, I dont want to "hurt" but, but of all people in this read, id like to give you a reality check the most, just because you seem so sure that I will never be a 4.5, lol.
     
  17. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    How do you know that you have?
     
  18. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    The same way you know that I havnt.
     
  19. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Nobody knows if you have or haven't. Here's a guy serving what, to me, look like about 110 mph serves. What I like about this guy's serve is that his motion is relatively simple and fluid. It looks like he can do this consistently in match play.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPzcq5GS9x8&list=UUQsybuOSnmDCaSFbzkaXX3w&index=6&feature=plcp

    Can you serve something closely approximating this? Post a video and quiet the skeptics or be prepared for another round of humiliation ...

    By the way, I don't mean that in a bad or mean way. I get humiliated almost every time I take the court. It's motivation to get better. :)
     
  20. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Nice link; yeah I agree that looks around 105-110. One thing to look for is where the serve hits the back fence. You can see that at these speeds the ball hits the back fence 5-6 feet up. Obviously this is not accurate since not all courts have the same amount of space behind the baseline, spin will change the trajectory, etc, but still it's a decent indicator.

    Because I'm guessing your serve doesn't look like that of the guy in the video... just a guess based on having seen your baseline play/technique.

    I'm happy to be wrong - tell me your service technique looks like the video, and I will accept that you can hit 110 and move on.
     
  21. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    USTA isn't the Universe, either, and a USTA rating has relevance only in the USA

    You may be aware that there are a number of other countries in the world in which tennis is also played.

    There are also a rather large number of posters on this forum who hail from these selfsame countries.

    With this in mind, might I respectfully suggest many of these people, myslef included, assign themselves a USTA rating for convenience when discussing tennis on these boards. We can be pretty accurate as there are some very precise and detailed international rating systems that allow us to convert our ratings.

    http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_43630_original.PDF

    http://www.knltb.nl/cms/streambin.aspx?requestid=E629C375-36B2-468A-82F8-7DB28D50F3A8

    So, if I say I am a 5.0, it is because I KNOW that my ITN 4 rating directly corresponds to USTA 5.0, I'm not making it up, and I don't need to be in a USTA computer to prove it..

    Similarly, if some Dutch guy plays at Dutch level 6, he isn't guessing when he says he is 'about a 4.0'

    There are more things in heaven and earth, Cindysphinx, than are dreamt of in your USTA computer...
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  22. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    There is black, and there is white. There is nothing in between, from a technician, engineer, and scientist.
     
  23. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Less typing, more video making. You claim you go to the courts 5x a week - plenty of opportunities.
     
  24. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I think most courts (just from my limited experience) have about the same amount of space behind the baseline. But I could be wrong about that.

    Yeah, the guy in the video is hitting pretty high on the back fence. He's serving pretty flat. I have to guess that I probably wouldn't be able to do anything but feebly block those back, if that.

    If you noticed from my video, even 70 - 75 mph flat serves hit the back fence on one bounce. 70 mph seems to be about the cutoff for serves hitting the back fence on one bounce.

    There is a video of NTRPolice's service technique with an instructor.
     
  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I did not to mean to say that 4.5 was out of the question for you. I was talking about how I consider 4.5 to be out of the question for me. Sorry I wasn't clearer. It is obviously more attainable for younger people and probably for guys, and I would never predict how far you could go given that I haven't seen you play.

    Could you, a 3.0C who has been playing for two years, knock me over with your best serve or hit me in the face? Of course not. If you stood there and blasted your very fastest serves at me, I would just receive from well behind the baseline. By the time the ball got to me, I would attempt to block it back. I might or might not be successful at this. Hit me? Knock me over? Nah.

    And if your consistency and aim are poor, you wouldn't be hitting the corners and I wouldn't have to worry about standing in to guard the angles.

    What can I say? I have faced many a 3.5 male player, and a few had hot serves. I win some, I lose some. It's just another match for me, even if they think they are Dr. Ivo.
     
  26. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    I say it because your league matches are against 3.5 players. And even if you get a pickup match against a 5.0 active college player then he isn't going to bother hitting a 110 mph serve against a 3.5 player in a pickup match. And even if you are receiving a real first serve from an active college player I don't think you would have any idea how to try and guess the speed. People new to tennis dramatically tend to overestimate serve speed and they tend to think that pretty much anyone who hits a hard serve is in triple digits but that simply isn't the case. I will also say that the fact you think that you hit 110 is more evidence that you haven't actually faced 110.

    When the sum and total of your belief that you hit 110 is based on your coach one time saying "thats so Ivo!!!" then it just isn't all that persuasive to me. Why don't you ask your coach what he thinks your serve is?

    Like I said- someday after you have been playing tennis longer you will look back at this thread and get a good laugh out of yourself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Almost every court has 21' behind the baseline.
    If the court is grippy, like newly painted or new courts, abrasive surfaces, the bounce is higher.
    If the court is wet grass or slick, worn down cement, the bounce is lower and it skids.
    Serves hit at 6,000 feet will go faster AND bounce higher.
    Serves hit in 55 degree fog will go slower.
    Wilsons generally bounce higher, can be hit faster because they're lighter.
    DunlopHDChampHardCourts are like the heaviest, knappiest balls ouy there, so serves won't look so impressive.
    Hot temps, ball bounces, flys thru the air.
    Cold temps, no.
    Taller players usually hit higher bouncing serves.
    That vid guy is hitting well over 100, so estimates are probably right on. I think he's tall, and the weather is hot/dry, and new courts.
     
  28. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    You beat 3.5 male player's sometimes? Then you must be pretty good. I have yet to beat a 3.5 (that is, a TLN 3.5) in a match. Kudos and respect.
     
  29. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I didn't know that about Wilson balls. Thanks. Been using Penns.

    Are you a scientist?

    You've motivated me to actually measure the distance between the back line and the fence at my local courts. Seriously. I'm retired. :)
     
  30. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I second that. In fact, videos from anybody are fun and instructive (in some sense, anyway) to watch.
     
  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I'm dating a scientist. She summarized the recent German E Coli virus outbreak this spring.
    I'm an artist.
    Measure it.
    About 9.5 racketlengths, if you don't have a tape measure
    Penn's bounce between Dunlop and Wilsons. I suspect Slazenger and Dunlop to be made by the same company.
    I've spent most of my tennis years in 50% humidity, 55 degree air temps in SanFrancisco.
    When I go out to Concord or Sacto to play, in 95+ heat and dry humidity, my serves goes up easily 20% in speed.
     
  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Sorry, might have my dates wrong. I must have been LAST spring. I"m getting senile in my old age.
     
  33. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    No need to be in awe.

    I played 7.0 and 8.0 mixed doubles the last few years, as a 3.5 and 4.0 player. My record in 7.0 mixed was almost perfect last year, as I was a 3.5 on the verge of a bump up.

    I could never beat a 3.5 guy in singles.

    I probably cannot beat a 3.5 woman in singles.
     
  34. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the links Timbo. Your comments keep it fresh that tennis is truly an international sport, and that the standard of recreational play in the USA is not necessarily the highest in the world. But that's another consideration for another thread.
     
  35. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Oh ... well still, you were competing against, and sometimes beating, 3.5 guys (4.0?) involved in some of your mixed doubles matches. That's a pretty good level of playing, imo. Not that I'm in awe. But still kudos and respect. Since, I suppose, you've been playing regularly for at least a few years, then I have to also suppose that you would probably kick my butt at my current level of competing. (But, give me some time. It's coming back to me, and I am getting more stamina and endurance as I play and practice more.) :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  36. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Let's hope so. I hope when he gets pulled over by the police he doesn't volunteer how fast he thinks he was driving... if so he may not be posting for a while. :)

    He is good at thread hijacking -we were talking about standard deviations and samples sizes...
     
  37. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Lucky you.
    Me too. Musician. Sensitive as s**t. :)
    I'm down with that. The empirical criterion.
    Have tape measure, will travel.
    I'll probably stick with Penns. But your claim about the Wilsons is intriguing. So will get a few cans of those to compare.
    I was in San Francisco in the late 60s. With the hippy thing. But I wasn't a hippy, just a pretty mainstream college kid. Loved it there.
     
  38. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    Here's NTRPolice's serve technique--decide for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB-Sw6DRQpE

    (The "Karlovic" comment is at 1:20)
     
  39. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    You are too funny WCA. Enjoying your posts. :)
     
  40. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Very interesting, so thanks for posting that.

    I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of others. From where I sit, it looks like most of the younger 3.5/4.0 guys I see. The main thing I noticed was that the student fell to his left after the serve out of balance and I believe that is incorrect. The pros leap/fall into the court but use footwork to recover in good balance. The teaching pro pointed this out late in the video, if I heard correctly.

    110 out wide? Nah.
     
  41. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Yeah. I have to agree. Video evidence of the complete serve is called for here. A behind (or in front of) the server perspective. Otherwise there's no way to tell how fast any of those serves are.
     
  42. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah. He even laughed with the instructor said it.

    So many things I could say that would get me banned...
     
  43. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Or if they're going in...
     
  44. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Yes ... or that. :)
     
  45. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    The rub to this is that there are thousands of very active tennis players that have no USTA rating and aren't a member. Like myself. But I am very active in the local tennis community and in things like these forums where people speak the language" and you tend to get the question often..."what's your rating?". Now technically, I'm not rated, but I play in a "non-sanctioned" (I dislike that term in this context, btw) league in what is called 3.5 singles, and I do fair in it. Am I wrong to answer their question by saying I'm 3.5?
     
  46. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Me too.

    What league do you play in?
     
  47. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    "I'm a 3.5 self rate."

    That oughtta do it.
     
  48. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe we can cut a deal.

    I won't go around saying I am a "Dutch level 6," and you won't go around saying you are "a 5.0."

    'Cause it isn't true.
     
  49. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    That ought to do what? By the way, I think we're back on topic. What a fun thread, eh?
     
  50. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Accurately state his level.

    Indeed. What a wild ride.
     

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