Maybe we need to come to an understanding about ratings

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Ok, I am going to ask the big one. Why not?

    Are you suggesting that the ITF are somehow wrong or incapable of working out the relative ratings around the world? This is not about whether or not some ALTA League only "4.0" is a USTA 4.0 or not (obviously they aren't) but whether an international player with a verified ITN computer rating (4 in my case, although it used to be 3, ahh, old age..) can be directly and accurately compared to a computer rated USTA player. Which they can.

    The ITF would probably like the whole world (as opposed to almost all of it) to switch to ITN ratings, but in the case of the USA that is about as likely as y'all going metric..

    But that doesn't mean 2.5 cm isn't still an inch, and you are still a Dutch level 6!!!!
     
  2. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    She said, sarcastically. :)
     
  3. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    If you think that im going to go out to specifically make a video to prove all of you wrong, you really think too much of yourselves and how much I value your opinions. I'm having way too much fun here to be worried about what you guys think.

    I love how the arguments become more and more withdrawn the more I post.

    I also like the increased number of "dislikes" on my videos ever since I first posted them here. Lotta haters and disbelievers on this forum.

    And to the person who said "lols, even if you played a 5.0, he wouldnt use his real serve on you!" he did and that was the first time ive ever been served at like that. I played with a 4.0 girl and we lost 7-5 with him serving full speed at me. He served a little easier on my partner.
     
  4. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    can we just agree that we don't care what your level is NTRPolice?

    it isn't really what the thread is about..
     
  5. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    I suppose, but it has a peculiar self-importance sound to it even more so than if I actually was USTA rated. And I don't think I've ever encountered an offense taken or further questioning about the USTA. The way I typically frame the answer is "I play in a 3.5 singles league." Absolutely true.
     
  6. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    I play in the MSU 3.5 singles league in East Lansing, MI at their indoor tennis facility, and also in the Lansing City Rec. league, outdoors in the "intermediate, " or "B" division.
     
  7. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Sure. Go with that.

    Or just say you are a Dutch level 5. Timbo says that is fine.
     
  8. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Nooo, Cindy!! It only works on REAL ratings.

    anywya, they go the other way, I think, he would be a Dutch level 7, but ONLY if he had a verifiable rating.

    the flip side of this is where a USTA rated player moves overseas (it happens, really!) and wants to play in, say, Australia.

    We can take his USTA rating and accurately grade him in to one our leagues, 'cos it works!

    However, using your argument, the reverse would not be true, as only 'USTA computer ratings' apparently count for anything...
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  9. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Well, it does seem that you're spending a lot of time posting in this thread defending your assertions regarding your serve without providing any actual evidence of your serve. Why not just post some videos of your serve?

    I didn't do either a dislike or a like regarding any of your videos. I would like to see some full videos of your serve. Either from behind or from the opposite side.

    Not in the 3.0 vs 5.0 point play video. He was serving at much lower than his capability ... supposedly. In fact, I'll go out on a limb here and say that I don't even like that guy's serving motion. There was one serve where he seemed to rip it, but the rest were half ***. Not at all impressive or even difficult for somebody even at my level to return. Play, and video record, you playing that guy in match conditions, where you're both putting out full effort. Post some videos of you serving. I love videos. Of anybody and everybody. :)
     
  10. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    You're right. But, from a newcomer (me) it has been a fun thread to monitor.
     
  11. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Do you guys start with NTRP self ratings, or preestablished USTA ratings? Just trying to get an idea what your 3.5 corresponds to wrt my experience.
     
  12. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    My first serve probably tops out at 90mph, but many times it is probably in the 80s. Nevertheless it can still ace people 4.0 or lower occasionally (even a 4.5 on a rare occasion). Even though it is the weakest part of my game, I usually have a high first serve percentage and I place it well, so it does the job mostly, it is just not dominating. 90mph is still a fast serve, I think most people grossly overestimate the speed of their serves/hits if they don't have an accurate and properly used radar gun.

    A 110 mph serve that you get in 20% of the time is effectively useless, it will lose matches for you, and will hinder your progress on your serve if you keep trying it. You have to build up to that sort of serve.
     
  13. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Actually, that's not as bad as I thought it would be. Nice knee bend; back is too stiff though and the body rotation timing is off. Not a 110 mph serve, but like I said, better than I was expecting. Good for the 3.5 level and probably higher also (depending on control - could not see where the serves were landing).
     
  14. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Ok, that's a bit faster than my current best, and probably faster than most of the 3.5s I play.

    Ok, that's the norm in my experience at my level in my local league. It can be very effective depending on placement, spin, etc.

    Yes, I would suppose so. Depends on placement.

    For example, in the recent Cincinnati match with Federer, Djokovic served some effective sub 80 mph (second) serves.

    First serve for me is just a shot to get me into the net. It doesn't have to be extremely fast. Just well placed. Witness, for example, the success of Ken Rosewall ... a world top ten dominant player for more than 20 years ... with a comparatively slow first, and second, serve.

    I agree. It's fast enough to give almost all 3.0 and most 3.5 players problems. But that's just in my limited experience in the Tennis League Network.

    Agree. I would have thought that my practice serves were going about 80 + mph, until I actually calculated the speed via time stamps in videos and estimated distances and discovered that they were probably only about 75 mph or maybe less. Fairly large margin of error when doing it that way.

    I agree. But the thing is, if you can hit serves at 110 mph with 20% going in, then you can potentially hit those same serves with, say, 60% or 70% going in. Personally, I don't think I could even possibly hit a serve close to 90 mph with my current old man serving motion. But, as I get more fit, and practice, there is, I have to think, hope. :)
     
  15. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    See, the kid has potential. Eh? I like his energy, movement, athleticism, and apparent willingness to take instruction.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  16. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    This is exactly it Tom. When I first started taking tennis seriously a few years ago one of the guys actually laughed at when I said "I want to try to be a 5.0" and now that same guy doesnt say anything when he sees me play.

    That serve motion in my video isnt at all like how my serve motion is now and I only brought it up to show that im very capable of squaring that face up and getting extra pace if I need to.

    In time, my flat serve will be consistent enough to be used as a legitimate first serve. Right now its too unreliable, so I dont use it. As far as "oh, im so good that I dont have to use it" that's really only half of it. People at this level can be seriously hurt if I play "my maximum" because they are not ready to be on the receiving end of a big serve, overhead, or return. I'm a pretty intense player and I want to win, but since this is rec level, im not going to bust someones ear drum, give them an eye abrasion, or blow out a nuttsack just to win a point. I will always try to avoid hitting the net player at this level, because this isnt 4.0. 4.0+ I just hit wherever I want.

    The "Ivo Karlovic" serve did in fact go in, but it was very close to the "T". I remember it, because this video was from our very first lesson and I gave the flat serve a chance for fun.

    As far as posting a video to prove everyone wrong, that's not going to happen. I guarantee you that there will be other videos up there of me soon, but because that channel is there just to gauge my improvement and not to prove anything to TT posters, if you really want to see me play, I wouldnt hold my breath.
     
  17. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    It's not about proving anything, at least not for me. It's about tennis videos. I love tennis videos. :) And now that we have this ... connection, via this forum, then your videos will be that much more interesting.

    I think you have great potential and am hoping you achieve your goals. Though I think you might have set them too low. I'm fairly confident that you could be a solid 4.5 player within a couple of years. I think it's just a matter of how important it is to you to make the necessary hours of quality practice on the court a priority.
     
  18. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    cindy's argument appears to be that we should cease using ntrp as an easily-understood yardstick to facilitate communication and discussion, simply because she can't be arsed asking a follow-up question about how someone has arrived at their rating if that rating becomes important

    this is an utterly bizarre thread, really
     
  19. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I've been saying there is potential. Even seeing the serve motion, I still have no doubt he isn't hitting 110. I doubt he is even over 100 in the swings on that video. He has a knee bend that isn't transferring up to his arm...too vertical.
     
  20. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I think I said somewhere back in the thread that I don't believe he's hitting close to 110 mph ... from what I've seen so far. Still, great potential, imho. He's sort of knee-jerk reacted to the sarcastic put downs of his claims. Which is probably the way I would react. I think he could probably beat most of his detractors or skeptics. That's why I excluded him from my challenge to USTA 3.0Cs. :)

    Whatever mechanical problems you see, I think he is intelligent enough and motivated enough to improve upon.

    So, I'm issuing a new challenge. I expect that by 2015 NTRPolice will be a bona fide, solid 4.5C USTA player.
     
  21. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Just because he served easier to your partner does not mean that he was serving 110 to you.

    In ALTA levels work differently where we can have wide range of players on our team- we have former D1 guys and 4.0 guys who practice together. The former D1 guys simply don't bring out their bombs when playing against 4.0 guys. They would probably just go to the bar early rather than facing a 3.5 guy. You may think that you got their biggest serve but in a pickup match I think that is exceedingly unlikely. Even then not all of our former D1 guys can still hit 110. I just don't think you realize what a massive serve 110 is.

    Seems like the easiest thing to do would be to just ask your pro how hard he thinks you serve. I do not think you will like his answer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  22. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I do agree with you Teflon, but I think that somebody, like Cindy, has to say something off the wall now and then otherwise there wouldn't be any actual discussions.

    Cindy has asserted a certain idea of hers, and it's resulted in a wonderfully entertaining thread as far as I'm concerned. In response to Cindy's claims, there's been a certain concentration on my claims, then a certain, and more extensive, concentration on NTRPolice's claims, and who knows what might be next.
     
  23. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This statement is also something i think you will find amusing in a few years.

    In the meantime, you had probably better register your overhead, serve and return with the local authorities as Deadly Weapons.
     
  24. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    That's a pretty big swing, it could be 110 at times. Not many of us carry around radar guns in our bags. I remember a guy at my club, about 20 years ago, who bought one and was generous enough to clock anyone who wanted to.

    The BEST SERVE is not necessarily the fastest. Fed and Pete don't have the fastest serves on the planet but win a lot of free points. At their level it's getting into their opponent's head, hitting all the spots (down the T, wide, into the body) and having all the spins, (slice, top, flat), keeping the receiver off-guard, guessing, leaning the wrong way.

    If you're young, athletic, motivated you can improve quickly. A freshly hatched beginner can go from 3.0 to 4.0 in a year if they work hard--if they forget about blasting the ball out of the park and keep it in the lines-- they can win a lot with gorilla tennis. He could become a 4.5 in a few years IF he gets really good coaching on all aspects of the game, technique, strategy and tactics (and he doesn't discover girls).
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  25. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    He certainly could end up a 4.5. I'll bet against 2015. That would mean 3 bumps up in 3 years. I havent seen someone accomplish that. I'd put the over-under on 2017...slightly ahead of his own prediction (by age 35 = 2019).
     
  26. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    It's especially odd since Cindy has recently said that, though she's a 4.0, she plays mostly doubles and would have trouble beating a (female) 3.5 in singles. So apparently follow-up questions will be necessary no matter what...
     
  27. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    There would be no need for follow up questions.

    "Cindy, what's your level?"

    "4.0. I suck at singles."
     
  28. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    can of worms time.

    is it worth considering different ratings for singles and doubles?

    I have a national open singles ranking, but I'm rubbish at (high level) doubles, Cindy soundsl like an excellent doubles player but is a self confessed bunny on the singles court.

    It is kind of like the Bryans vs Fed, both awesome, but they are almost different sports!

    I guess my point is that an NTRP computer rating derived only from doubles has no meaning in terms of a singles tournament. Sure, a player MIGHT be equally good at both forms, but in reality few are.

    just putting it out there.
     
  29. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    I guess self ratings... I don't think they rely on any of that strict USTA stuff. I think it's a basic estimation of the level to expect in that division. The first time I played in it, the director sort of had me "try out" just so he could be sure he wasn't signing up someone who clearly didn't belong. The thread about the tryout is still deep in the long forgotten pages of TW...I think back in 2005, the year of my second re-embracing of the game. I'm on my fourth now. Haha. Life keeps getting in the way of my sustained progress. ;)
     
  30. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    i dont think so. most ppl who are substantially poorer at one kind of tennis don't play enough of it to get an accurate rankin at it anyway

    in that case, the best 'guesstimate' is still gunna be to use ur main rankin to work it out
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  31. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    There's no way id want to be a 4.5 by 2015, even if I could. I wanted to be a 4.0 in ability and rating by 2015. I wanted to be a 4.5 by 2020. My time is running out which is why im voluntarily playing up while not self rating up. I had a recent talk with my 7.0 team about this because they wanted to me to stay down because im obviously more valuable as a 3.0 than as a 3.5 or 4.0.

    My theory is that I have to start now if I ever want to get there. I have the rest of my life to come down in ratings if thats what it has to be, even with the minimum changes to self rates and expired ratings.

    Not everyone plays down like Cindy. Yeah, she may be a 4.0 B, but she's playing 3.5 ROFL because her record at 4.0 is terrible.

    There are many factors to NTRP. Singles vs. Doubles is one of them. You also have age and gender to take into consideration.

    TBH, type of rating doesnt matter. Only time does in this aspect.

    The only fair rating system is "open". Any "handicap" or "bracketing" system can be abused.

    I watched the Pospisil/Raonic vs. Nadal/Djoker

    That was an exciting match. I also believe its more common to have a wildcard advance in doubles as it is in singles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  32. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    In my dreams, man. In my dreams.

    [​IMG]
     
  33. leroy_sunset

    leroy_sunset Rookie

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  34. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    oh dear lord! :shock:

    might be a translation issue here, lol, in this part of the world a 'bunny' is someone who is, well, crap at a sport, or at least an aspect

    for example, in cricket, many of the best bowlers (think 'pitcher') are 'bunnies' with the bat. (ie, useless)

    http://www.foxsports.com.au/cricket...unny-of-all-time/story-e6frf3g3-1226216032309
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  35. North

    North Professional

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    There is a usage of "bunny" here in the States that sort of combines both aspects of the term. The "bunny hill" at a ski resort is where you go if you are just learning or if you never got past the beginner stage. It also has (more so in the past) the implication that you just like to wear cute ski outfits and are not particularly there for the skiing.

    Also - I think separate Singles and Doubles ratings are a good idea as I am much better in singles than dubs. I can hold my own just fine in 4.0 singles but keep wondering why there are so many people around at those rare times I play doubles - lol.
     
  36. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    True. But nothing 'useless' about the woman in the picture CS supplied. She's a 9.875 at least - and we're not talking about NTRP anymore...
     
  37. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, definitely a translation issue.

    If I heard someone say a woman is a bunny, I would think was a frivolous plaything. As in Playboy bunny.

    I need to find an opportunity to use Timbo's definition.
     
  38. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    I think USTA ratings are going to be worthless soon, now that you have 40 and over leagues. People are going to have higher ratings when they are playing 40 plus leagues.
     
  39. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    How so? Not saying I like the change, but there will be a degree more age parity, how will that raise ratings?
     
  40. goober

    goober Legend

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    I think the thought is that the 40+ crowd will be playing other 40+ players and it will be easier for them to win and therefore ratings will move up. I don't think this will be the case as most 40+ players are playing dubs anyways and they are in many cases tougher than the 20-30s crowd in dubs. Plus the whole reason to set this up was for the 40+ players to play in both the 18+ and 40+ leagues, which many of them are doing.
     
  41. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed.

    Also, most women at 4.0 and below are over 40 anyway. Can't speak for the age distribution among the guys.
     
  42. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    That's what I thought too. If anything, it might level things out. Most of the younger (under 40) group are either beginners or already at a higher level... the tough matches are against the grizzled veterans!
     
  43. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    The flaw in your thinking is that if some players are winning, then some are losing too. So they'd move down and so there isn't a mass move up of ratings. The system more or less stays balanced.

    Perhaps what the issue is that 40+ players tend to play more doubles and are relatively better at that, so a 4.0 "singles" player would easily beat one a 4.0 "doubles" player and there is the perception the 40+ doubles guy is overrated.

    http://computerratings.blogspot.com/search/label/tennis
     
  44. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    I am in the 20-30 crowd and agree with what your saying about doubles.
     
  45. Rjtennis

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  46. schmke

    schmke Professional

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