McEnroe won the equivalent of 21 masters series events

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Moose Malloy, Feb 12, 2007.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Since so many put a lot of stock in the total masters series won by players(only started in 1990), I'd thought I'd give some of the great pre '90 players their due.

    These were probably Mac's biggest titles outside his 7 grand slams, they certainly had great fields, prize money, & most importantly a lot of ranking points available-Mac was year end #1 four times, & these events were a major factor in that.

    Stockholm/Cincinatti/Canada became masters series in 1990(Stockholm was replaced as a masters by Stuttgart in 1995, which was then replaced by Madrid in 2002)

    78,79,84,85-Stockholm
    81-Cincinnati
    84,85-Canadian Open

    79,81,83,84,89-Dallas WCT
    78,79,80,82,83-Wembley
    82,83,84,85-Philadelphia

    and not a masters series, but probably more important, the year-end championships:

    78,83,84-Masters
     
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  2. eunjam

    eunjam Rookie

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    nice.....but he's still a jerk.
     
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  3. Sagittar

    Sagittar Hall of Fame

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    a very good jerk ..
     
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  4. TGV

    TGV Rookie

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    Thanks for the info, Moose.

    Amazing record. How many different events were there then? 9 or fewer? If fewer, it is even more amazing. Any big events on clay back then?

    Also do you happen to know the numbers for Lendl, Becker and Edberg.
     
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  5. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I agree, that the cited tournaments like Philadelphia (often a 96 men event), Wembley or Stockholm, when played in the 70s and 80s, were the equivalents of the Masters series today. The years end Masters at MSG had for a while a higher status than the AO, also the WCT Dallas event in the early and mid 70s was preeminent.The indoor circuit was much stronger constructed then. In the early 70s, The South African Open, the South West Pacific at La, or the US pro at Boston were equivalents (together with the German and Italian Opens). For Macs period one could also considerate the Forest Hills event on har tru, played in May.
     
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  6. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Yep, I agree with your list, though I agree with urban about adding his 2 Forest Hills titles. His '82 Tokyo trophy could be regarded as an MS as well.
    I tried to write down such a list actually, some time ago, if that is of interest to you, here it is:

    -Lendl, 22
    -Mac, 21 (I know, considering what I said above, he should have 24, but I had to choose only 9 events per year, wich narrowed down his number).
    -Connors, 17
    -Agassi, 17
    -Borg, 16
    -Becker, 14
    -Federer, 12

    The list is for 1973-2006, as my knowledge from the earlier period is not sufficient to make such a list, and the ATP website isn't complete for 1969-1973...

    Jonathan
     
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  7. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    TGV:

    Becker-14
    '85 Cincinnati
    '86 Canadian Open
    '86,'89,'92 Paris Indoor
    '87,'88 Indian Wells
    '88 Dallas WCT
    '88,'90,'91,'94 Stockholm
    '96 Stuttgart
    89 Philadelphia

    of these 14, only 5 are officially counted as masters series- '90,'91,'94 Stockholm,'92 Paris, & '96 Stuttgart.

    as far as how many were big events back then, hard to say. I would think less than 9. Monte Carlo, Hamburg, Rome were big events, but probably not as big as Wembley, Dallas, Philadelphia, Stockholm. Rome was a bit bigger than the other 2 clay events. I don't believe these clay events had as much ranking points at stake(its a shame we can't find out the exact points distribution) as the others mentioned.
    Looking back, it does seem that the tour was slanted a bit towards fastcourt players in the 80s, so many of the biggest non slam titles were indoor events, & as you can see Mac was a monster indoors.

    Will try to do Lendl & Edberg later.
     
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  8. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    which 9 do you have? so far Dallas, Wembley, Stockholm, Philadelphia, Canada, Cincinnati were mentioned, do you consider Hamburg, Monte Carlo, Rome as well?

    do you agree with my Becker list?
     
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  9. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Hi!

    Here is my list for Becker:
    Cincy 85
    Canada 86
    Tokyo 86, 88
    IW 87, 88
    Dallas 88
    Stockholm 88, 90, 91, 94
    Paris 89, 92
    Stuttgart 96

    Here are the differences: I don't consider Paris as a MS before 89, as that's the first year when there was a very strong field. I didn't count the '89 Philly title for the opposite reason: it was not a really big tournament anymore at this time, IMO.
    But I include his two Tokyo titles because this was probably the main indoor tournament in the 80's.

    I found it very difficult to choose 9 tournaments each year because at some time there were 11 or 12 very strong fields in a given season.
    I tried to preserve a quite steady proportion, based on today's: 5 tournaments between the AO and RG, including at least 2 on clay, 2 summer tournaments, and 2 indoor tournaments in the fall.

    Here is the current list (I summarized the main changes, if it's unclear, I could post it as an excel file or something):

    1973-1977:
    Philadelphia, Monte-Carlo, Dallas, Vegas, Rome, Indianapolis, Boston, Wembley, Stockholm

    1978: the summer tournaments (Indy and Boston, on clay), are replaced by Cincy and Canada), Wembley is replaced by Tokyo as one of the big indoor events. The rest stays the same.

    1981-1983: Wembley replaces Stockholm. I'm not sure why but in these years Stockholm had very weak fields with many unknown swedish players...In 1984, it becomes again an MS, Wembley disappears again.

    1982: Vegas is not a great one anymore, is replaced by Forest Hills (on clay), that has great fields.

    1986: Forest Hills replaced by Miami (Boca West in 86, then Key Biscane from 1987 on).

    1987: Philadelphia replaced by Indian Wells with its first strong field.

    1989: Paris replaces Tokyo.

    1990: actual Masters Series era begins. Dallas is out, Hamburg is in...


    As you can see, the transition from the 1973 to the 1990 list is actually quite smooth, throughout the 80's.
    These choices lead me to the list I posted above, with Lendl leading with 22 titles.

    If you disagree with my choices, please let me know, I'd be happy to have input from people who might know this period better than me...

    I'm extending my list to 1968-1972, I'll get back to you when it's done, if you'd like.

    Have a good day,
    Jonathan
     
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  10. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    please do. also, can you list edberg's ms titles?

    the itf website has many more draws of events from 68-73 than the atp website, if that helps

    here are all the wembley draws:

    http://www.itftennis.com/mens/tournaments/tournamentsearch.asp
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2007
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  11. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Wow thanks, I didn't know about this ITF website, I'm going to have a look!

    Here are Edberg's MS:
    Stockholm 86, 87
    Tokyo 87
    Cincy 87, 90
    IW 90
    Paris 90
    Hamburg 92
     
    #11
  12. rasajadad

    rasajadad Hall of Fame

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    In any measurement of his career stats I also like to point out that McEnroe intentionally skipped the Australian a number of times, (3, I think,) due to it's previous scheduling.
     
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  13. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    SgtJohn, it looks as though there was no Vegas or Wembley event during some of those years. Did you have another tournament to replace them?
     
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  14. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Well done for putting that together. It is always interesting to wonder what the players prior to what are now official Masters Series won as far as events of that caliber.
     
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  15. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    No, I think these events took place every year in this period:

    Vegas:
    1973, Gottfried
    1974, Laver
    1975, Tanner
    1976, 77, Connors

    Wembley
    1973, Okker
    1974, 76, Connors
    1975, Dibbs
    1977, Borg

    SgtJohn
     
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  16. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    My bad, the Wembley event was called London those years, so I didn't come across it on the itf website when searching for Wembley. ITF is also missing '73 Vegas.

    If its not too much trouble could you list Connors' ms titles? do you have an excel sheet or something with all the winners of these events since '73? it seems like you have this info readily available, thanks
     
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  17. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Here are Connors':
    Philadelphia 76, 78, 79, 80
    Vegas 76, 77
    Dallas 77, 80
    Indianapolis 74, 76, 78
    Boston 73
    Wembley 74, 76, 80, 81
    Tokyo 84

    So that's 17, which would tie him with Agassi's post-90 record...

    I do have a word file with all this data, I tried to copy/paste it in my post, but it didn't work...Can I attach the file? I'm not sure, I'm not such an expert in forums...

    Bye!
    Jonathan
     
    #17
  18. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I thought you didn't consider Indy an MS by '78?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2007
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  19. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Yeah sorry, Indy means Indianapolis here, I should've been more precise.
     
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  20. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Hi! Ok, I will write my list here, so that everyone can use it if they want. It might be a bit more difficult to read than a spreadsheet, but I couldn't paste it any other way...
    Here it goes!

    Philadelphia (US Pro Indoor)
    1969 Laver
    1970 Laver
    1971 Newcombe
    1972 Laver
    1973 Smith
    1974 Laver
    1975 Riessen
    1976 Connors
    1977 Stockton
    1978 Connors
    1979 Connors
    1980 Connors
    1981 Tanner
    1982 McEnroe
    1983 McEnroe
    1984 McEnroe
    1985 McEnroe
    1986 Lendl

    Indian Wells
    1987 Becker
    1988 Becker
    1989 Mecir
    1990 Edberg
    1991 Courier
    1992 Chang
    1993 Courier
    1994 Sampras
    1995 Sampras
    1996 Chang
    1997 Chang
    1998 Rios
    1999 Philip’sis
    2000 Corretja
    2001 Agassi
    2002 Hewitt
    2003 Hewitt
    2004 Federer
    2005 Federer
    2006 Federer

    Las Vegas
    1969 Gonzales
    1970 Gonzales

    Chicago WCT (I coudn't find any evidence that Vegas was held in '71...if you know more, please tell me!)
    1971 Newcombe

    Las Vegas
    1972 Newcombe
    1973 Gottfried
    1974 Laver
    1975 Tanner
    1976 Connors
    1977 Connors
    1978 Solomon
    1979 Borg
    1980 Borg
    1981 Lendl

    Forrest Hills
    1982 Lendl
    1983 McEnroe
    1984 McEnroe
    1985 Lendl

    Miami (Boca West in '86, then Key Biscayne)
    1986 Lendl
    1987 Mecir
    1988 Wilander
    1989 Lendl
    1990 Agassi
    1991 Courier
    1992 Chang
    1993 Sampras
    1994 Sampras
    1995 Agassi
    1996 Agassi
    1997 Muster
    1998 Rios
    1999 Krajicek
    2000 Sampras
    2001 Agassi
    2002 Agassi
    2003 Agassi
    2004 Roddick
    2005 Federer
    2006 Federer

    South African Open
    1969 Laver

    Sydney Open
    1970 Laver

    Dallas WCT Finals
    1971 Rosewall
    1972 Rosewall
    1973 Smith
    1974 Newcombe
    1975 Ashe
    1976 Borg
    1977 Connors
    1978 Gerulaitis
    1979 McEnroe
    1980 Connors
    1981 McEnroe
    1982 Lendl
    1983 McEnroe
    1984 McEnroe
    1985 Lendl
    1986 Jarryd
    1987 Mecir
    1988 Becker
    1989 McEnroe

    Hamburg
    1990 Aguilera
    1991 Novacek
    1992 Edberg
    1993 Stich
    1994 Medvedev
    1995 Medvedev
    1996 Carretero
    1997 Medvedev
    1998 Costa
    1999 Rios
    2000 Kuerten
    2001 Portas
    2002 Federer
    2003 Coria
    2004 Federer
    2005 Federer
    2006 Robredo

    Monte-Carlo
    1969 Okker
    1970 Franulovic
    1971 Nastase
    1972 Nastase
    1973 Nastase
    1974 Pattison
    1975 Orantes
    1976 Vilas
    1977 Borg
    1978 Ramirez
    1979 Borg
    1980 Borg
    1981 Vilas
    1982 Vilas
    1983 Wilander
    1984 Sundstrom
    1985 Lendl
    1986 Nystrom
    1987 Wilander
    1988 Lendl
    1989 Mancini
    1990 Chesnokov
    1991 Bruguera
    1992 Muster
    1993 Bruguera
    1994 Medvedev
    1995 Muster
    1996 Muster
    1997 Rios
    1998 Moya
    1999 Kuerten
    2000 Pioline
    2001 Kuerten
    2002 Ferrero
    2003 Ferrero
    2004 Coria
    2005 Nadal
    2006 Nadal

    Rome (Italian Open)
    1969 Newcombe
    1970 Nastase
    1971 Laver
    1972 Orantes
    1973 Nastase
    1974 Borg
    1975 Ramirez
    1976 Panatta
    1977 Gerulaitis
    1978 Borg
    1979 Gerulaitis
    1980 Vilas
    1981 Clerc
    1982 Gomez
    1983 Arias
    1984 Gomez
    1985 Noah
    1986 Lendl
    1987 Wilander
    1988 Lendl
    1989 Mancini
    1990 Muster
    1991 Sanchez
    1992 Courier
    1993 Courier
    1994 Sampras
    1995 Muster
    1996 Muster
    1997 Corretja
    1998 Rios
    1999 Kuerten
    2000 Norman
    2001 Ferrero
    2002 Agassi
    2003 Mantilla
    2004 Moya
    2005 Nadal
    2006 Nadal

    Los Angeles (PSW Open)
    1968 Laver
    1969 Gonzales
    1970 Laver
    1971 Gonzales
    1972 Smith
    1973 Connors

    Indianapolis
    1974 Connors
    1975 Orantes
    1976 Connors
    1977 Orantes
    1978 Connors

    Canadian Open
    1979 Borg
    1980 Lendl
    1981 Lendl
    1982 Gerulaitis
    1983 Lendl
    1984 McEnroe
    1985 McEnroe
    1986 Becker
    1987 Lendl
    1988 Lendl
    1989 Lendl
    1990 Chang
    1991 Chesnokov
    1992 Agassi
    1993 Pernfors
    1994 Agassi
    1995 Agassi
    1996 Ferreira
    1997 Woodruff
    1998 Rafter
    1999 Johansson
    2000 Safin
    2001 Pavem
    2002 Canas
    2003 Roddick
    2004 Federer
    2005 Nadal
    2006 Federer

    Boston (US Pro)
    1969 Laver
    1970 Roche
    1971 Rosewall
    1972 Lutz
    1973 Connors
    1974 Borg
    1975 Borg
    1976 Borg
    1977 Orantes
    1978 Orantes

    Cincinatti
    1979 Fleming
    1980 Solomon
    1981 McEnroe
    1982 Lendl
    1983 Wilander
    1984 Wilander
    1985 Becker
    1986 Wilander
    1987 Edberg
    1988 Wilander
    1989 Gilbert
    1990 Edberg
    1991 Forget
    1992 Sampras
    1993 Chang
    1994 Chang
    1995 Agassi
    1996 Agassi
    1997 Sampras
    1998 Rafter
    1999 Sampras
    2000 Enqvist
    2001 Kuerten
    2002 Moya
    2003 Roddick
    2004 Agassi
    2005 Federer
    2006 Roddick

    Stockholm Open
    1969 Pilic
    1970 Smith
    1971 Ashe
    1972 Smith
    1973 Gorman
    1974 Ashe
    1975 Panatta
    1976 Cox
    1977 Mayer
    1978 McEnroe
    1979 McEnroe
    1980 Borg

    1984 McEnroe
    1985 McEnroe
    1986 Edberg
    1987 Edberg
    1988 Becker
    1989 Lendl
    1990 Becker
    1991 Becker
    1992 Ivanisevic
    1993 Stich
    1994 Becker

    Essen
    1995 Muster

    Stuttgart
    1996 Becker
    1997 Korda
    1998 Krajicek
    1999 Enqvist
    2000 Ferreira
    2001 Haas

    Madrid
    2002 Agassi
    2003 Ferrero
    2004 Safin
    2005 Nadal
    2006 Federer

    Wembley (London in '72-'75)
    1969 Laver
    1970 Laver
    1971 Nastase
    1972 Nastase
    1973 Okker
    1974 Connors
    1975 Dibbs
    1976 Connors
    1977 Borg

    1981 Connors
    1982 McEnroe
    1983 McEnroe

    Tokyo
    1978 Borg
    1979 Borg
    1980 Connors
    1981 V. Patten
    1982 McEnroe
    1983 Lendl
    1984 Connors
    1985 Lendl
    1986 Becker
    1987 Edberg
    1988 Becker

    Paris
    1989 Becker
    1990 Edberg
    1991 Forget
    1992 Becker
    1993 Ivanisevic
    1994 Agassi
    1995 Sampras
    1996 Enqvist
    1997 Sampras
    1998 Rusedski
    1999 Agassi
    2000 Safin
    2001 Grosjean
    2002 Safin
    2003 Henman
    2004 Safin
    2005 Berdych
    2006 Davydenko


    Here is the subsequent list of title leaders:
    Lendl 22
    McEnroe 21
    Connors 18
    Agassi 17
    Borg 16
    Becker 14
    Laver 13
    Federer 12
    Sampras 11
    Wilander 8
    Edberg 8
    Muster 8
    Nastase 7
    Chang 7
    Orantes 6
    Nadal 6, etc.

    Please come back to me if you have any remarks...

    Jonathan
     
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  21. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Very interesting list, Jonathan. Thanks for the stats. One could add for 1968 the US pro at Boston, French Pro at Roland Garros (both won by Laver), and the Wembley Tournament of Champions (won by Rosewall). Also in 1971, the Berkeley event, where all WCT players and most other top ranked players participated, had a much better field than the LA Pacific Southwest. Monte Carlo became important in the mid 70s; until then Hamburg was the more important clay event (behind Rome), as covered in the World of Tennis yearbooks. But these are marginal footnotes to a good work.
     
    #21
  22. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    thanks for posting John. I think Hamburg became a big event before it officially became a MS in '90. Looking through the draws they had great fields from '85 on at least. Also I was just looking at some old tennis mags, they talked about the Tournament of Champions at Forest Hills failing to draw a good field in '85. Apparently only 15 of the top 50 played it that year.

    And it seems that Dallas WCT lost its luster prior to 1989, some of the top players that qualified(like Lendl, Becker) skipped it in '87-'89. Maybe Hamburg instead of Dallas those years?

    you mentioned that there were sometimes 12 big events a year, were there any other events that came close to being included on your list?

    it is interesting that even with the MS around today, there are still some other events that attract better fields. seems like Dubai last few years is probably a more important event than Paris Indoor.

    but the French was already open in '68. why did they have a separate pro event that year as well? seems odd.
     
    #22
  23. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Moose, the French pro was a pure pro event since the 30s. In the 50s it was played on clay at Roland Garros, mainly in october. Since 1963, it was played indoors at the Stade de Coubertin in Paris. The last time, the event was held, was in 1968, when they returned to Roland Garros. It was played in July, the week after Wimbledon, and brought together the two operating pro groups, NTL and WCT. It actually had a better field than the French Open in May, where the WCT players (Newcombe, Roche, Drysdale, Pilic, and others) didn't play. Rosewall, the French open champ was beaten by Newcombe, who reached the final against Laver.
     
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  24. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    OK, thanks to you guys for your ideas! I'll definitely consider changing my list, but first of course I have to take a look at the Hamburg draws etc. because I'm not so familiar with the events you mentioned.

    Moose, you ask what were the 12 yearly big events that I mentioned.
    Hamburg is the perfect example. I think that from the 70's on, the 3 current clay Masters Series, MC, Rome and Hamburg had definitely strong field. But I couldn't select the three of them, as it seemed there were too many other great events in the year to have these three among my "super 9". Plus I wanted to somehow keep the same balance as today, that is 5 MS between the AO and RG, then 2 summer MS, and finally 2 fall MS. So I had to conclude that I could only keep 2 of these.

    Another example is the indoor season, as during the 80s there were three great events: Wembley, Stockholm and Tokyo (and Paris in the late 80s). But following my ideas I had to select only 2.

    I chose 1979 for the year when Cincy and Canada replaced Indianapolis and Boston as the summer MS, but actually there was a transition period when these 4 had all great fields.

    etc etc. I could go on and on. Bottom line is, you could really often find in the 80s 12 or more tournaments with strong fields.
    But for the sake of comparison, we have to select just 9, and that was obviously the hard thing about doing my list, which for this reason will never be perfect. The alternative would be the inverse choice, to compare the players on a set of 12 great tournaments, which would let us include more significant data for the 70s and 80s, and we would just have to add 3 tournaments from 1990 to 2007 (but it's not so easy, though Dubai, the Queen's, Halle, Tokyo, seem like candidates...hell, any of them had better fields than Paris!).

    I'll go back to you soon with new ideas I hope, and changes maybe!

    Jonathan
     
    #24
  25. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    I had a look at the Forest Hills draw, and it's true it isn't that great a field: there are indeed Lendl and McEnroe, but seed #3 is the very young Krickstein then #4 is Sundstrom, and the rest is just unknown guys, at least to me...
    The next year, in 1986, Forest Hills is replaced in my list by Boca West. The equivalent of Boca West in 1985 is Del Ray Beach. In this tournament there were Lendl and Wilander, in a very big draw,but both were eliminated in the fourth round, making it a kind of "Cincy 2006" tournament where both world n°1 and n°2 players were eliminated early. Tim Mayotte won the trophy.

    What would convince me the most to include it in my list is the big draw, which definitely makes an event more "Masters Series-like". Does any of you have a list of 64-, 96- or even 128-draws during the pre-1990 era. I know only of KeyBiscane/Boca West/Del Ray Beach for now, as well as Monte-Carlo and Rome...
     
    #25
  26. Q&M son

    Q&M son Professional

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    Great thread, as usually from Moose, urban and SgtJohn...
     
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  27. CyBorg

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    SgtJohn - in regards to your top four events from every year, I am curious why you rated the Aussie as the top in 1987, but not Key Biscayne.

    There may be a basic prestige factor here, but Miami had a 128-man draw - the Aussie didn't - and a deep field (major-quality).

    Besides, Mecir won it - it kind of pains me he didn't win a major. Well, here I think he won something as good as a major.
     
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  28. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Hi CyBorg,

    In a new list I've been working on I admit it is often extremely hard to decide between 2 events, and then used a "fractional number" concept to calculate each player's "Slam score".

    You're perfectly right to mention Miami, as it is an example of this new approach. I cannot honestly decide between this tournament and the AO, so the majors and their respective 'coefficients' are:
    AO (1/2)
    Key Biscayne (1/2)
    RG (1)
    Wimbledon (1)
    USO (1)

    It is so from 1987 to 1989. I hesitate to include the Masters too, as it was very big during all its years in New York (that would be 3 '1/3' events then).

    Jonathan
     
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  29. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    That's an amazin compilation.
    I just noticed you put Nadal at 6, but he has 11 Masters Series titles, no?
     
    #29
  30. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Thanks for this.
     
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  31. superman1

    superman1 Legend

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    Drysdale and Enberg were saying something about how the top players opted out of a lot of these tournaments, so the fields weren't quite as strong, certainly not like today when every single top player plays every single big tournament. Is that true?
     
    #31
  32. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Thanks!
    You are right of course, Nadal had only 6 titles back when I wrote this post, he went up since then...
     
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  33. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Yes it is. Apart from Wimbledon and the US Open, there were usually only 4-5 events where you could see the whole top 5. It was so until the 1990 reform 'forced' the players to enter 'Super 9' events...
     
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  34. Q&M son

    Q&M son Professional

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    French open 1977 reminds me Master Cup 2005 (both won by argentinian players!)
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2008
    #34
  35. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Wow! Thanks for the list :)

    Looks like it's due for some updating!
     
    #35
  36. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Wow 13 Masters Level titles for Laver past the age of 30

    Boy - I bet no-one breaks that record in a hurry.

    Laver turned 30 in August of 1968. To win 13 Masters level titles in your 30's is pretty impressive. (Not sure what time of year the Pacific Southwest was in 1968 - does anyone know?)

    Just checked - it was 16 September 1968. Hence, Laver was over 30.

    Great record.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
    #36
  37. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Wow that is amazing. I didn't notice that.

    I was look at the Tokyo results and I saw the big names for the first three years and than Vince Van Patten! This may have been the only tournament Vince Van Patten ever won.

    Tokyo
    1978 Borg
    1979 Borg
    1980 Connors
    1981 V. Patten

    Tokyo Indoor Japan
    GP 26 Oct 1981 to 01 Nov 1981 Entry : DA Carpet (I)
    32 W VAN PATTEN v John FITZGERALD (AUS) 6-2 6-4
    16 W VAN PATTEN v Jose-Luis CLERC (ARG) 6-7 7-5 7-6
    QF W VAN PATTEN v Vitas GERULAITIS (USA) 0-6 6-3 6-3
    SF W VAN PATTEN v John MCENROE (USA) 6-3 7-5
    FR W VAN PATTEN v Mark EDMONDSON (AUS) 6-2 3-6 6-3

    He had the tournament of his life here. The names he beat were tremendous.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
    #37
  38. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Great stats. One question though;

    Were those tournaments compulsary like the super 9 today?
     
    #38
  39. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    my list of slams and super nines 1968 to 1978

    this list is based on the championship points list of 2000-2008 run by the atp.

    in otherwords a true slam earns 200 pts
    a true ene of year champs earns 150
    a true super nine 100

    this means that in mosts years in this period there never 4 true slams; or just 9 super nines ; or a year end championship . these points are based on prestige and most importantly strength of field; also clay court events have to be found for a slam or a super nine


    1968

    slams (200 points)
    french open ; wimbledon; us open ; psw


    super nines (100 points)

    Fench pro ; us pro; wembley (won by rosewall in autumn), madison square garden open (won by roche), german open, queens london


    1969
    the only true year of open tennis between 1969 and 1978

    slams

    aussie open, wimledon , french open and us open


    super nines (100 points)

    philadephia, madson square garden open( won by gimeno), south african open, monte carlo, italian open, psw, las vegas (won by gonzales), london wembley (won by laver over roche), german open



    1970

    slams 200 points

    wimbledon , us open




    super nines (100 points)
    aussie open, philadelphia,us indoor open (won by nastase), dunlop open march won by laver, south african open, louisville on clay( nearly all top wct players were in the field and they had 11 of the top 15 in the world that year), spanish open (because top wct clay courters laver, rosewall , gimeno , drysdale, played against major euro clay courters santana, kodes, franulovic, orantes ); us pro, psw, french indoor open, london wembley,
    french open won by kodes; Tennis championsclassic won by laver which was played mainly at the time of the french open and had easily the richest prize in tennis at the timeof 75000 dollars for laver and 40,000 for rosewall as runner up ; and was the big wct event of the year like the wct finala of forthe restof the 1970s (wct and NTL BOYCOTTED THE EVENT OVER APPEARANCE MONEY because THE FRENCH TF PAID APPEARANCE MONEY AND EXPENSES IN 1969 BUT REFUSED TO DO SO IN 1970; MOST OF THE DISPUTES IN TENNIS BETWEEN 1968 AND 1972 CAME DOWN TO THIS ISSUE; ONLY IN MARCH 1972 DID WCT AND ITF CAME TO TERMS GIVING JANUARY TO MAY TO WCT EVENTS AND WITH THE GRAND PRIX RUNNING FRO LATE MAY TO DECEMNBER. IN 1977 THE itf BROKE THIS AGREEMENT AND WENT BACK TO WAR RUNNING A FULL GRAND PRIX WITH CLOGATE AS A SPONSOR OF A FULL YEAR ROUND CIRCUIT; BORG SIGNED TO PLAY WCT IN 1977, BUT A BRIBE FROM COLGATE MEANT HE PLAYED THE GRAND PRIX INSTEAD; THE ISSUE WAS SETTLED OUT OF COURT) ; stockholm open ; and masters won by smith but not an important event because there were about 20 events on the circuit (no appeareanve money rule by ITF meant both german and italian open were not part of grand prix) and john newcombe who won wimbledon could not be bothered to play



    1971

    slams wimbledon 200

    usopen 150
    aussie 150
    italian open 150
    french open 125

    1971 was the main full out war between wct and ITF; in july 1971 the itf barred all wct players from wimbledon 1972 and all other events controlled by wct


    aussie dunlop open was attended by all wct players who had 7/10 of the top players and 10/17 top players. nastase had played the dunlop open in march 1970 in sydney; he did go in 1971 because of hus committment to the ITF circuit and riordan's usta winter circuit.

    Italian open had 13/17 players including kodes (french open winner), smith
    franulovic gorman, laver4, newcombe , gimeno , okker , emerson,ashe and drysdale


    french open none of the top wct players who could win at the french open played; laver , rosewall, okker, gimeno, drysdale , gimeno, newcombe and emerson, and graebener an itf player all stayed away. it was unfortunate series of events . laver had won all 13 of his matches on the tennis champions classic to earn 160,000 from one event (smith only earned 15,000 for winning thre us open) . laver was overplayed and tired and his back problems whichplagued him fronm 1971 to 1973 began at chicago 1971 in march. laver actually entered the warm event at bournemouth and the french, but withdrew at the last minute from bouremouth and went home to usa and missed the french as well. In contrast newcombe , okker drysdale and gimebno did play their warm events at the german open and belgium open. gimeno won hamburg with kodes in the field; and drysdale won in brussells beating smith and nastase in 3 straight sets. In otherwords their stupidity and their dislike of the the french tennis federation instigated the 1972 wimbledon ban. all the 16 weak wct players did play the french open. only 9/19 top guys played the event

    us open only 150 because laver, rosewall , drysdale gimeno and emerson boycotted the event because of the ITF ban only 12/17 top plasyers played



    super nines 1971 worth 100 points


    richmond, queens, washington, san fransisco, wembley and stockolm. laver;s win on the cahampions classic where he won 13 straight best of 5 set matches is include. this wasal achievement of 1971 by a mile but onlt gets a 100 points because of its lack of prestige. newcombe lost both his matches to laver and okker ; rosewall a lost both his matches to laver and ashe. okker reached the final but would only received 35 points because he only 2 matches and the plaued like a normal 50 point even for him.


    WCT finals 1971 100 points because it had 7 of the top ten players in its field








    1972 bitter dispute year

    slams us open 200


    150 points PSW easily the strogest fied after us open. the 3 contenders for the number one spot all played ie rosewall, smith nastase. rest of field included ashe,okker, orantes, kodes, connors, hewitt, riessen gorman etc who were all in the top 20. tanner reached the finalof the the psw beating nastase and okker to justify his top 20 place.

    100 POINTS FRENCH OPEN, WIMBLEDON, WCT FINALS AND STOCKHOLM





    1973

    slams 200 points
    french and us open; laver again withdrew from the french open with his back problem which kept him out the game for 2 months where he came back at bretton woods and lost vijay amritraj in 3 sets.

    endof yearchampionship 150 points mastres won by nastase; italian open had as strong a field as the the french.



    100 points
    cbs classic which attracted all the best of rhe wct who had 14 of the top 20 players on their circuit that year
    candian open; PSW, Stocholm; WCT finals for same same reason as cbs classic
    davis cup because 13 out of top 20 played and its value if every one played should have same value as a true masters like nastase's win


    wct finals same reason as cbsclassic




    to be continued


    jeffrey







    ute year
     
    #39
  40. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    contiuation

    I made an error becaseof my typing skills let me down as usual.

    1973

    150 itaian open everybody but ken rosewall entrered the eveny


    Davis cup 120 points because 15 of top 19 played in 1973. my value for a true davis cup is the same as the end of year masters whicheverybodytried to compete acording to thier talents and physical abilities ie 150


    100 point events cbs classic see previous post; wct finals; canadian open;
    PSW, barcelona, madrid, stockholm, paris indoor, dewar cup
     
    #40
  41. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    continuation of 1968 to 1978 super nines

    wimbedon 1973 is a 100 point event



    1974

    200 point events wimbledon and us open


    paris slam 150 points because of wtt ban kept connors , rosewall, okker and newcombe. also laver was at his best on clay in 1974. he won 6 out of 15 overall, butwon 3 out of 4 on clay. tokyo beat borg in sf straight sets and gisbert in final; cox, ashe and tanner lost early; vilas had his best result on wct green group here on clay losing to borg in qf. In houston the results were exactly the same and urban has claimed this is slow rede clay -laver beatborg on clay in 2 straight sets; tanner, ashe cox lost ealy; vilas matched his tokyo result of being defeated in qf by borg, but borg defeated clay courtspecialist vilas (whohad earlier beat kodes on clay) on the way to qf. in barcrelona borg beat laver 6-1, 6-1 indoors. laver also won bretton woods on clay , the only grand prix he played in '74 because he had his tennis camp at bretton woods. laver's only failure on clay was in october at the TV 4 man event WITC where he was beaten by a red hot nastase. Nastase showed he was still a great clay player by winnin 3 eventsin a row at hilten head (WITC), barcelona and madrid. In this streak he also beat borg twice, orantes and vilas once; the majority over 5 sets.








    150 event wct finals (18of top 20 tried to qualify)

    100 events philadeplhia, tuscon, las vegas, us pro , nottingham ,barcelona, madrid

    ausie open (newcombe, borg and connors top 3in the world all played)

    masters (laver , rosewall and smith never tried to qualify; connors boycotted the event because commercial union failed to follow their own rules ie no grand prix event can ban a player if his ranking his high enough; therefore CU should have banned the french open from the grand prix and punished the french TF. connors only came back to the masters in 1977 when there was a new sponsor colgate)




    1975

    200 point slams us open and wimbledon

    150 point slam paris because of no connors and wtt ban


    150 points masters won by nastase



    100 point events philadelphia, tuscon , italian open, lousville, nottinham, us pro, stokholm

    WCT finala dallas 13 of the top20 attempted to in dallas: 2/3 of 150 =100

    CBs challenge cup 16 man event on same basis as directly above but entry based on 1974 performance because this was the first event of 1975 eg smith was a top tenner in '74 but only a top 25 player in '75



    1976

    200 point slams wimbledon , us open and paris (wtt players except for nastase of no importance in 1976)


    100 point evens philadelphia, palm srings, us pro, psw, stocholm, italian open

    masters 100 because borg,connors and nastase deliberately said no to the event. borg and nastase played loads of 4 man events after us open rather than grasnd prix.

    WCT finalas Dallas because connors, orantes and panata never tried to qualify and nastase was kept out because he only played 6 out of 8 events.


    WCT challge cup hawaai won by nastase who in best of 5 set matches thrashed rosewall for the only time in nastase's career (nastase was red hot at this time of the season), beat borg and ashe in 5 sets (ashe at the tine was still playing like hisworld number one form of 1975)




    1977 WCT grand prix war is on again with colgate running grand prix all year round.

    200 point slams wimbledon and us open

    150 point slam paris no connors and borg played WTT instead

    150 point masters in new york


    100 point event philadelphia

    100 point wct challenge cup76-77 event las vegas where nastase shoed how to beat a peak connors (connors peak runs from 1974-78; after then he has lots more losses against poor players and usually lost all his bg matches against mcenroe and borg easily)

    100 points wCT dallas finals vilas did not try to play and borg signed for wtt. borg also oiginally signed for WCT but the new Grand prix sponsors offered a bribe to borg to play the grand prix


    100 point s aussie open with top grass court payers like roche, rosewall, tanner (the winner) alexander plus 2 top tenners vilas and stockton



    1978 a year when borg wasted a lot of his year playing 4 man events; he won 8 out of 9 so he alwaysplayed to win and his only loss was to his great rival connors in south america.


    200 points events paris,wimbledon and us open

    100 pont events philadelphia, WCT las vegas won by borg (connors played)

    rotterdam (connors and borg both played)

    WCT finals dallas (no connoirs or vilas,who had been runner -up in 1976 the only he reallytried to qualify in the past) and borg defaulted sf

    tokyo with both borg and connors ; borg won this 32 man event in the autumn

    WCt challenge cup jamaica won by nastase over a red hot mcenroe and borg

    stocholm where red hot mcenroe demolished borg very easily on the fast indoor tiles in the sf

    masters where borf and vilas refused to play, but connors entered, and mcenroe won beating a rejunvated ashe wh played great tennis in late '78 and early '79 at the age of 35

    wimbedon '73 is a 100 point event


    jeffrey
     
    #41
  42. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Everyone talks of Borg versus McEnroe as a great rivalry. I agree, but Borg vs. Connors was a great rivalry also.

    Nice contrast of styles also: loopy topspin versus flat and hard.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2009
    #42
  43. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I enjoyed the matches of Borg versus Connors. Only problem was the matches at the end were generally very one sided. Connors had no answers to Borg but the rallies were fun to watch.
     
    #43
  44. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Nice work but I also question "importance". When I look at Sampras' career I see in 1996 he skipped Toronto (a masters... super 9 then) but opted to play Indianapolis (and won). Same in 1997, skipped Montreal (a masters... super 9 then), yet played Indianapolis. And again in 1999 he skipped Montreal (a masters... super 9 then), but played Los Angeles (and won), and Indianapolis (got hurt).

    Is there a reason why he skipped the Candaian masters so much?? You'd figure if it was one of biggest 9 tournaments outside of slams he's go instead of Indianapolis and Los Angeles.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2009
    #44
  45. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    1990's rules

    in 1996 samparas could choose where he played . ie the system was a best of 14 events. samparas did not have to play any event he did notwant toplay. therefore a clay couter like muster never enterted wimbldeon in his peak years. the system was play as many as you like and count your best 14. neither muster or sampras would be penalised for missing events they did not like and would tire them out. best 14 system of the 1990s was total rubbish and should never be regarded as a legit ranking system. I was using the 2000-2008 ranking system of the atp, which has wide acceptance over the years. remember the atp has had about 6 different ranking stsytems over the years and their 1990s one is total rubbish.


    jeffrey
     
    #45
  46. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Thanks that what I was questioning. In trying to equate masters, and "equivalents" it becomes difficult trying to seperate the next 9 tournaments after the slams and the YEC, and that's something I've always questioned.

    So m list is somewhat accurate, but not completely. And I don't know how many times exactly the ATP changed the ranking sytem, but they did so few times when Sampras and Graf were at the top if I recall correctly.
     
    #46
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Palm Springs and memphis Indoors?
     
    #47

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