Mixed Doubles Strats?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by jaybear1909, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. jaybear1909

    jaybear1909 Rookie

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    I haven't really looked at mixed from a competitive viewpoint, but have been playing it a lot more recently and am really enjoying it. I'm playing 4.0 this season with my cousin and was wondering about some decent strategies. I'm a 4.0 Singles/Men's doubles player (3.5 on a bad day, 4.5 on a good one) and my partner is a 3.5-4.0 Singles player. She is very consistent, but lacks power. She's got a really good lob too. I'm about the opposite; I tend to make mistakes, but can force errors with pace.

    My main concern is holding her serve. The first one can get up to about 50 mph, but her second serve is just getting the ball in. Really not sure how this will hold up at 4.0. I'm going to try to get her to just hit a high % of first serves, with placement.

    For my serve I'm just going to try and mix up the spins to the girl, and try to get a few free points against the guy. I normally hold serve pretty easily unless I just zone out.

    What strategies do you 8.0 mixed players utilize?

    Also torn about what side to put her on. She's a lefty and I'm a righty, but I love playing ad side. I do much better under pressure and all the pressure points are on that side. Her backhand and forehand are pretty equal, forehand just has more top. Guess we're just going to have to see which side works best for us.
     
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  2. VeeSe

    VeeSe Rookie

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    Be active at the net on her serve and you should be in a decent place. Establish the poaching early so that they always feel pressure on their returns. Find ways to interject yourself into the point when it's a girl-girl rally, usually by picking the right time to poach across the net. Doing this will really help her hold serve.

    It's harder to force errors with pace in doubles because you don't force movement a lot of the time, and pace shouldn't bother 4.0's that much, but it will probably get you a fair amount of points in some matches. More than anything, focus on being consistent and moving in to the net off a nice, deep ball. It doesn't have to have pace, it just has to be deep with a little bit of topspin and you are set to come in.
     
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  3. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Do USTA rules allow cousins to play m'xed together? Somehow it just doesn't seem right, kinda like an abomination. Are you'll playing in Kentucky? Well good luck--but no playin' "I" formation, alright?
     
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  4. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Hmmm, how is it that you enjoy playing mixed? I always feel like a Jekyl-and-Hyde thing going on. I always feel I can hit the ball hard to the guy and take a lot of pace off to the girl. Same with serves. It's just a strange way to play tennis.

    Social mixed? Sure, but to me that means just hitting less pace to everyone to keep it nice. That is cool playing with your cousin though.
     
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  5. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Based on what you are saying here. I would put her in the deuce court(although me and my wife play the other way...:)) I've never like two backhands in the middle of the court. I know when I see that I have a field day. Serves, lobs, vollies all go through the middle of the court. I would try to talk her into taking a lot off that first serve and get it in preferably to the middle of the court and you can cut more off if you are hanging towards the middle. I'd also have her lob them to death assuming the guy is patroling the net and cracking overheads from no man's land. When she does lob again...she needs to lob either over the backhand side or most of the time over the woman's head so you don't eat one at the net. If the woman has some weight issues are just doesn't move her feet. I'd serve everything wide to her and isolate her from as much as you can from the man so you can work her over.


     
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  6. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Women just don't know about the "I" formation right?<wink> should we tell them? nahhhhhhh...lol


     
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  7. jaybear1909

    jaybear1909 Rookie

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    Just another layer of the game in my opinion. I just like tennis. I've played many girls that can handle pace, and even a few that can dish it out.

    Granted, it is in my head a little bit when I have an open shot down the line/overhead and the girl is at the net. A couple matches ago I mistimed the ball and it went straight at the lady's chest. Hit her racket though and she didn't care one bit about it.

    I think people that play mixed just have to accept that the weaker player will get picked on (whether it be guy or girl, I've seen both on multiple occasions). Just a little harder to pick on that player when it's the girl.
     
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  8. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    ***TENNIS KNOWLEDGE ALERT*** FYI, the USO mixed-doubles final is being replayed on the tennis channel right now Peschke/Matowski vs Makarova/Soares and one of the broads is a lefty and they have her on the deuce side. It's on the Tennis Channel and it says it's gonna' be repeated Wed 8-10 pm (I'm in Kali). I'll try to pay attention and give you some tips, as soon as I wake up and get the Keurig and the Pastry Streudel goin'.
     
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  9. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I play 8.0 mixed (although not well!), so here are some ideas.

    First, I think you should play ad, but not for the reasons you state. Your overhead should be stronger than hers, so you can cover 75% of the court with your overhead smash if you are in the ad court. If you are in deuce, the two of you may collide on overheads up the middle.

    Second, when she is serving, please help her. That means faking, poaching, whatever it takes. Don't let the opponents get into a groove whereby they isolate her. I cannot sustain more than a few decent shots against the male opponent, so if my partner just stands there waiting for a sitter, I will never hold.

    If her leftie BH volley is weak, learn to play Aussie so she lines up in the ad court every time, with her FH in the middle.

    Finally, be alert for backward creep. Don't let her backpedal from the net. She should stay right up there so that she is less of a target. If she lobs well, she can lob the net player and run to the net like her hair is on fire.
     
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  10. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    She is not a 4.0 if her first serve is going 50 mph. I'm pretty sure my partner's second serves go about 60 and her (good) first serves go about 80. She's a 4.0 and im comfortable at net with her serving for the most part.

    Power is where its at for 4.0 and 8.0 combos. Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 there is an area where people no longer make mistakes and you're required to hit winners to end points. In doubles, this is especially evident. If I see a player who "just gets it back into play" you can bet im going to have a field day at net. The probably wont pass me and even if they do its probably not going to be a winner. If this type of player is spotted (you can tell in the warmup) I would tell my my partner to stay 1up 1back permanently and whoever is at net makes most of the points. No point in bringing both players up because there is going to be a lot of moonballing.

    Bottom tier 4.0's are stuck in the "dont make errors" game.
    Top tier 4.0's dont make ridiculous errors and are learning to transition to offense.

    It sounds like your partner isnt a top tier 4.0 and is therefore a huge risk when playing mixed. Whenever you play mixed it is all about the female player. People like to have a "strong guy" with a "solid girl" but I like the opposite. I firmly believe that a "strong girl" combined with a "solid guy" is a superior combination (my opinion).


    About the whole ad/deuce side thing...

    TBH, it doesnt matter who if you have two forehands in the middle or two forehands on the lines when you have a R/L combo. I really think that it's a myth for it to be "better" to have both forehands in the middle. There are a lot of reasons why this cant be true but im not going into them here.

    The more solid player needs to play the Ad side in a normal match. If it's no Ad scoring, then I suppose it doesnt matter as much. In an Ad scoring game, the player on the Ad side both wins and loses the game with their return.

    The more solid player needs to play Ad. Period.

    If you're both "the same level" or w/e then I guess its personal preference. It's really dumb to put the worst player on the Ad side and the "big forehand" on the deuce side unless you like to play a lot of deuces in a single game.

    As for serves...

    I serve the guy big and I risk doubles to protect my partner at net. When I serve the girl, I just give her two solid second serves to reduce double faults since her return probably wont punish my partner at net. I also come in on the girl most of the time and force her to do something with her return.
     
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  11. jaybear1909

    jaybear1909 Rookie

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    While I agree with most of your post, I don't agree with the part in bold. I think there's way too much depth in this sport to deny someone 4.0 capabilities because they don't serve fast enough. Her consistency makes up for her lack of power. I haven't met many 4.0 players that are extremely consistent and have a lot of power. Also seen 4.0 guys hitting "safe" second serves (meaning slow), but being quick enough to cover most offensive returns. I based her rating on her singles game as well. I know doubles is a totally different beast.

    Now I do regularly hit with a guy that's 5.0+, and he can consistently hit hard/deep/topspin etc, whenever he wants, but has a more spin friendly, less pace type serve (80-90 mph, higher when he really goes for it). I also hit with a 3.5-4.0 player that can serve bombs (we both want to get his serve clocked) but I believe it's safe to say he can hit in the high 110s to low 120s. He lacks consistency in his ground game though.

    Thank you for the post though. I found it very constructive.
     
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  12. jaybear1909

    jaybear1909 Rookie

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    Very interesting. Thanks for the post. I actually watched a little of that match but didn't pay attention to the details. I'll be checking that out.
     
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  13. escii_35

    escii_35 Rookie

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    Me too. I find it makes it easier to divide the court with a "strong pard". I eat up 60% of the base line. She takes any volleys in the middle and mauls the floaty stuff.



    4.0 female singles players in mxd are really rare. I've seen a few 3.5's but never a 4.0.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
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  14. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Are there 4.0 singles players in mixed? Of course. Many do very well.

    What they have is the ability to execute from the baseline. If her partner is even a little active at net, eventually she can tease out a defensive ball. 4.0 singles players are often very good at placing their passing shots. They may be below level on their volleys, but they can put away a sitter. Where they struggle is their volley transition game, but you can go a long way in 8.0 mixed without a volley transition game.

    As far as a 4.0 woman having a slow or attackable serve . . . so what? One of my doubles partners has a very basic serve, but she wins a lot. This is because she absorbs pace incredibly well and likes to come to net. The male opponent tries to blast through her, but she eats up the pace until they miss.

    What the male opponent never seems to figure out is that she will miss a paceless volley, and she cannot handle a lob over her partner.

    So, OP. Remember your topspin lob if the opposing woman comes to net, and remember that pace isn't the answer to all problems on a tennis court.
     
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  15. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    What on earth are you talking about? There are plenty of 4.0 women who's first serve doesn't touch 50MPH. You are the 3.0 player who thinks that he hits 110 out wide so I guess I guess it makes sense you grossly overestimate the speed of other people's serves as well. For women who didn't grow up playing a sport that involved throwing a ball the serve is a very difficult shot to learn where the other groundstrokes can come much more naturally.
     
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  16. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    The problem is that 50 MPH is just too slow. We're also talking 8.0 and potentially 9.0 here, not 7.0 or 6.5. In 8.0, you may go up against a 3.5 girl and a 4.5 guy. What do you think a 4.5 guy is going to do to a 50 mph first serve? What do you think a 5.0 guy is going to do to that serve?

    A 50 mph serve can be hit with a forehand no matter where it lands in the box so you cant realistically expect them to play a backhand. Also, at this average level of 4.0, everyone should have a topspin backhand or a "powerful slice" at the least.

    A 50 mph serve wont have any movement on it at all. The racket head speed is just too low to put any useful amount of spin on it. The ball wont have any kick unless it clears like 3x the height of the net... which isnt exactly a high percentage serve.

    A 4.0 should have two serves already, or one very solid serve they can use twice. If she was playing 7.0 senior+ she can get away with it. In the 8.0 arena that is a huge risk. Her first serve should be going at least 70 (flat) and I know its possible even for a senior lady to hit that. 70+ with spin as a 4.0 girl would be a great serve, but should be able to hit 70 flat at least for a first.

    I'm just trying to put this into perspective. 8.0 and doubles. 50 MPH. Sounds dangerous.

    You projecting?

    50 mph as a first serve is extremely slow especially for MIXED DOUBLES at the 8.0 level or higher.

    Not a 4.0 mixed doubles player who is trying to play 8.0.

    Say w/e you want about my claims, but I assure you, when I post my YER benchmark video ill be sure to put some serves in there for all you haters. You guys just cant seem to get over the fact that someone who is lower NTRP can possibly be better than you or know what they're talking about. I should have just self rated 4.5 because my serve becomes much faster apparently.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I have never encountered a 5.0 guy playing 8.0 mixed. Here, a 5.0/3.0 pairing is against the rules. I won't comment on 9.0 because I have never played at that level and only know one 4.0 woman who does.

    Anyway, I can tell you what 4.5 guys do to the slow serve of the woman. Sometimes they crack it at the guy at net. Sometimes they pass him. Sometimes they drop shot. Mostly, they try to crush it crosscourt. If the female server can block it back, it's game on. If not, she loses the point and will need to make it up against the opposing female, or else.

    Well, yeah. A weak serve is a weak serve, and we all know what a weak serve looks like.

    What you seem to be missing is that a woman can be 4.0 and do quite nicely in 8.0 mixed despite a weak serve. See, women with weak serves are aware of this. They have learned to compensate with other elements of their game.

    4.0 women should have "two serves"?

    Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "two serves". Most 4.0 women I know (and I would suggest I know way more 4.0 women than you do) have a hard/faster serve they use for their first serve. Then they use a slower, more conservative serve for the second. A few can hit a kick or slice for the second serve, but that is a minority of 4.0 women IME.

    As for whether a 4.0 woman is hitting 70 mph, I have no idea (and I doubt you know either). I have never clocked my own serve, and I spend no mental energy wondering how fast it goes. Instead, I try to generate spin and placement and variety (I can serve flat, slice and topspin) more than pace.

    There are two reasons for this. First, a lot of people love pace and are quite used to dealing with more pace than I can generate. Second, a lot of opponents struggle with spin and will hit a somewhat more defensive return, which allows me to get into the rally.

    I know from your prior posts that serve speed is very important to you, but judging the effectiveness of a 4.0 woman's serve based largely on a radar gun will cause you to underestimate her ability to compete at 8.0 mixed.

    Nah, not "dangerous." If you are looking for an adjective, I would go with "typical."
     
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  18. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    NTRPolice- I simply think that you are talking out of your ass. You are a 3.0 player who evidently has not faced a ton of 4.0 women. there are lots of 4.0 women with tremendously weak serves. Sure there are 4.0 women with good serves but that is not at all a consistent thing. They can do very well at mixed simply because they are used to blocking back pace when it is hit hard at them. A 50 MPH serve can still be effective if it is placed effectively and they have a partner who is active at the net. While a 50 MPH serve sounds slow many groundstrokes are that speed and it is simply not a sure end to the point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
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  19. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    It is here too, but as a 4.0, its possible for her to play 9.0 and she could be up against a 5.0 guy.

    Right, but every point starts with a serve. You dont need to serve bullets, but you cant serve ducks either.


    Yes, as you mentioned, two distinct serves, a first and second. Or she should have two good serves she can use twice. A 50 mph first serve disqualifies her from that almost instantly because a 50 mph "spin" serve wont have any movement on it at all and its certainly not going to bounce high either.

    Serve speed indicates to me a persons physical potential. To serve 80 with good spin you need to be able to hit over 100 flat, for example. The racket head speed required for both is the same, it's just that the ball is struck differently.

    It's not about the raw speed really.

    You said it yourself. This serve is going the same speed as a ground stroke.

    Except that:

    1) I know where this "ground stroke" is going to land unlike in a potential rally because this "ground stroke" has to land inside the service box to start the point.
    2) In a ground stroke rally im behind the baseline and not standing well inside of it like I would be when I receive this serve.
    3) Unless this "ground stroke" serve is super low like a slice then I can put it away almost immediately, or make a strong offensive shot setting up a put away.
    4) Any 4.0 that I know, man or woman can put away a ball that lands inside the service box provided its not a low volley exchange. You cant possibly tell me this ball is as low as a slice or a proper volley.
    5) I can run around this ball and hit a forehand every single time unlike in a legit backhand to backhand baseline exchange.


    That should clue you in a little.

    I assume the 4.0 in question isnt a super senior honorary 4.0 who took up tennis when she was 60. If she's not that, she really has no excuse to be serving that slow as a first serve. None.
     
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  20. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I am a 4.5 who plays 8.0 and I also coach college tennis. I have found that in general, you are best off with the better player on the ad side of the court since most game points are played on that side. I am also in favor of having forehands in the middle of the court. Most people are best at hitting their weaker side cross court as opposed to inside out on returns.

    As for what to do with the weaker serve. I might start the point on her serve with both players back at the baseline. They will try to return the serve to her. Have her lob the ball back cross court and then you can sneak into the net.

    Also, might want to try playing aussie on the deuce side for the lefty (ad for the righty). It will give her a forehand and most likely the weaker of the two players.
     
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  21. jaybear1909

    jaybear1909 Rookie

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    If this were a 4.0 tournament I were playing I'd be a little more concerned. I'm sure our opponents will have some type of a field day with her service games, but we will likely return the favor when their weaker server is up. I can't teach her a 70 mph kick, 100 mph flat overnight (she'll likely never hit this hard in her lifetime).

    She's quick and she can counter-attack from the baseline, so if they hit a blatant winner off her serve it would be because A) I'm being lazy or B) They hit a great angle. If they can do this consistenly they shouldn't be playing at 4.0. I'm not anywhere near as worried about losing her first serves as I am about losing her seconds.

    I'll try to bring this thread back up at the end of the season and let you know how we did.
     
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  22. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    LOL at 4.0 women having 80 mph serves. If any 4.0 woman has an 80mph serve, then it would be a monster serve. There are some WTA women who have 80 mph first serves. I am an average to good 4.5 male, and my serve tops out at around 90 mph, I'm sure many of my first serves are in the 80s (albeit my serve is the weakest part of my game), so her first serves would be almost as fast as mine. I don't think so.

    As to the OP's point, I always like the lefty on the deuce side so there are two forehands in the middle. But in general the better player should be on the Ad side.
     
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  23. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Well, isn't that the purpose Al Gore invented the internet for, so that we ALL have the freedom to talk out of our asses?
     
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  24. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. There is some gross misconception over serve speeds here. 50 mph from the female in 8.0 is fine if she handles a heavy cross court return. (Even if she can't, some poaching will mix things up and get you some points on the male side to hold.) 50 mph will get the ball deep enough in the box to permit the net person to handle 4.0 forehands. If she can place the 50 mph it verges on becoming a weapon unless the net guy is slow or lacks volley skills.

    It's doubles. If a 4.0 returner is putting away relatively deep serves, regardless of serve speed, there is something more flawed with the serving team than the serve.
     
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  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    If you spend any time over at the Instruction Board at TT, you will see that there are plenty of players who struggle to punish a short ball. When I play 8.0 mixed, I see a lot of 4.0 guys who miss the weak serve of the opposing female. Happens all the time. Generating your own pace gives a lot of players trouble, and 4.0 guys can struggle with this when they know they must get their return past a net player.

    Also remember that there is a lot of variety in the playing styles of 4.0 men. There are some 4.0 guys who are pushers with poor technique, and they rely on consistency to win. There are also 4.0 guys who play primarily singles and are defensive retrievers. These types of players will not step up and smack winners all day long off of a 4.0 woman's weak serve. They may try, but they will erase their winners with errors.

    Where are you getting all this information about how 4.0 women serve? I mean, I know you are pulling the MPH stuff out of your backside, as you have never seen any 4.0 woman serving with a proper radar gun.

    But beyond that, what is the basis for your belief that a woman's slow serve to the guy in mixed is suicide and inexcusable? I mean, I have played 8.0 for a few years now, and that is the basis for my opinions. I think you are totally wrong.
     
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  26. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    Also, I'd be ecstatic if my 8.0 Mixed partner's first serve was 50 mph!
     
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  27. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Me too! We have a speed radar unit at my club, and it is always a real eye opener.
     
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  28. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Hey, I can answer that one, being a 4.5 guy...
    Often a 4.5 guy is going to want to really punish a 50 mph serve, and as a result will overhit. I actually prefer returning a nice waist high 70mph serve rather than a low-bouncing 50 mph serve. The slow, low, short serve requires a lot of control to hit a winner off of, since you need to generate your own pace and put enough top on the ball to get it over and keep it in, given that it's low and short. Ok, I don't want to make it sound as if the 50 mph server is a good serve... just saying it's not an automatic loss of point even against a 4.5 guy.

    You're out of touch. These days, 3.0s are serving 120, don't you know.

    QFT
     
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  29. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    A solid 80 mph serve with spin, control and consistency can very well be enough to play WTA. This type of serve is not at all like a 50 mph serve regardless of spin and placement.

    There are 4.5 men who have solid serves like this and can do well in adult league. The point im trying to make is that those extra 30 mph + spin make a world of a difference. A 50 mph tap over vs. 80 mph high spin is not comparable at all.

    Punishing a short ball that happens in a baseline rally is not the same situation as what we're taking about here. What we're talking about here is a 50 mph serve with a negligible amount of spin on it which is probably going to bounce waist height well inside the baseline.

    Even 4.0 pushers I know can chop this ball to "start something" not necessarily hit a winner.


    I'm going to discuss the radar gun thing later in the post, but for now

    It's apparent that most people on this forum only play social tennis and have never made a play off for anything. How do I know? Because everyone seems to think that people play nice and dont exploit these types of weaknesses in their home games.

    If I had to come up with a point I can bet you 100% I would drill this ball DTL and the net person couldnt do anything about it besides turn around and protect themselves. Sure, I might miss, but this is actually my "go to" shot on rally balls that land short in the court.

    As I said, this ball has to be low like a slice, or else its just going to sit. I do not see this ball bouncing less than 2 ft high which is what I would consider "low enough" to not be able to immediately punish.

    This ball would be played well inside the baseline even if it manages to catch the back of the line.

    The heavy cross court return is really the most neutral shot you can play. There are many other shots I could play on this ball to go on the immediate offense or crack a clean cut winner.

    DTL; DTM; cut it shot, slide it wide, lob.

    Even a good top spin lob could be a winner here against the net guy. The ball only has to go like 8 ft high too, which is much lower than your normal baseline lob. Even if its not a winner, both players would be at the net while their net player is probably running back to the baseline while the server crosses to get the lob.

    I would take 2 up vs. 2 back any day of the week.
     
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  30. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    So, in answer to my question about how you have any idea what you are talking about re the serves of 4.0 women, you have no answer?

    As OrangePower says, weak serves from women in 8.0 mixed can be difficult for the male returner to exploit consistently.

    I will add that my male partner at net has a racket in his hands. If you blast the ball at him, he can reflex volley it.

    I do not believe I have a weak serve for my level, nor do I have a cannon. Still, I can count on one hand the number of times male returners have won points by ripping returns at my partner at net. Why is that? Because it is stupid to hit low-percentage shots to the stronger player who is at the net. My male opponents know it is much smarter to hit a strong return crosscourt than to try to target my partner.
     
    #30
  31. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    If you're talking about the radar guns, I forgot to come back to it. The thing about hand held radar units are that you can literally be measuring anything in the direction you're pointing it at. It's quite common for people to radar the racket... and not the ball. Also, the ball has different speeds, and its quite easy to measure the ball at its slowest point and not its fastest. When they measure ball speed on TV, its off the immediate face of the racket, not after it has bounced off the court, it is a stationary unit, calibrated, and much more "fast" in terms of radar pulses.

    So all of you guys who think a hand held radar unit at your "club" is the end all be all of serve speeds, you guys really have no idea how silly you are. I cant believe I had to explain this.

    People have radar gunned guard rails going 50 mph before and its quite common to get speeding tickets dismissed in court which were administered by radar because of its inherent inaccuracy.

    Aside from that, having experienced a broad range of serves, I can tell you that I can easily approximate the speed of a serve in "blocks" of... -80/80-100/100+ quite easily.

    My 4.0 partner and I have played cross court singles as practice. She is serving between 60-80 on her first serves and she isnt built like Sam Stosur or Serena either.

    50 mph first serve is pitiful and bottom tier 40 if anything. Bottom tier women in mixed leagues are a weakness.

    By a scrub... who is playing social tennis.

    Imagine a 4.5 college player who is playing with a 3.5 high school player. Do you really think that a 50 mph serve is going to fly?

    Like I said, you guys lack perspective. I'm not talking about grandpa and grandma playing social 8.0 mixed league. If you get to a play off, you will have very capable players, like a 4.5 senior teaching pro and a 3.5 "older" physical fitness trainer or something.


    In a perfect world the net player always gets the ball back, no matter how hard or low the ball is hit at them. In reality, thats not true.

    This serve is going to bounce 3 ft high and ill contact it half way between the baseline and the service box. At this range the net player can only cover a small amount of the court. If he covers line, I can take sharp angle wide, cut it short, or pound it down the center and set up for a put away volley. If he plays more to the middle, I always have DTL for a clean cut winner because he is not going to be able to get a racket on it, period.

    Honestly, the best place for the net player to stand with this type of serve is at the baseline because that cuts down my options. If hes at the baseline, I have no DTL or lob or DTM. I only have droppers, way out wides, or generic returns.
     
    #31
  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Instead of focusing on gender, why not work against weaknesses of the opposiing team?
     
    #32
  33. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    We're talking about a 4.0 mixed combo with a female with a 50 mph first serve. It was what the OP said when describing his partner. I'm not woman-hating, it's actually on topic haha.
     
    #33
  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Mindset...
    Why focus so much on holding serve? Realistically, tis easier for you guys to break serves, than to hold the woman's serve.
     
    #34
  35. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    If you are talking about me, since you put "club" in quotes, it is not a hand held unit. I can't believe I had to explain this.

    I don't want to be mean or confrontational, but you write some of the most delusional posts I have seen on any forum anywhere on Earth. You are apparently a 3.0 (3.5?), but seem to be able to execute the shots of a 5.0.

    You appear to be the definition of Dunning–Kruger effect, which essentially states:

    Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
    1) tend to overestimate their own level of skill
    2) fail to recognize genuine skill in others
    3) fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy
    4) recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill
     
    #35
  36. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Extremely off topic, but ill respond.

    A 5.0 shot with other 3.0 elements means the person is a 3.0, simple. People seem to think that your tennis "game" and therefore "NTRP rating" should be based off your best feature, or shots. This is wrong.

    Your NTRP is based off your average, or better yet, based off your worst. For example, a 4.0 with absolutely no backhand, overheads, or volleys, but serves 200 mph will lose every single match. A 200 mph serve would be like... NTRP 10.0, or something. :roll:

    People on this forum can watch a video of a guy hitting 3 forehands in 240p from the side and tell that the guy is obviously a 7.0, THAT is silly to me.

    As for the radar unit...

    A handheld unit, or a $50 piece of plastic that you sit on the floor is practically the same thing. Where do you put it? Center court? Angled, facing the server? On the baseline? Slightly behind it?

    How do you know where the ball is even being measured?

    If that radar unit measures the ball after it hits the court, the MPH can be off by like 20. I watched a video of A-Rod hitting serves on the David Letterman show and he was clocked at 86. R.O.F.L

    Measuring serve speeds by the FPS method through video is going to be the most accurate thing a person can use aside from a really expensive radar unit.

    If you have the unit at the net, or on the opposite side of the net with a floor radar unit, you are doing it WRONG.

    Serve speeds should be measured at contact with the ball.
     
    #36
  37. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    NTRP, after any self-rating period, is based entirely on your performance against other players. The computer doesn't care what kind of shots you can hit, or what kind of strategy you employ, it only cares about how many games you win, and against whom you win them.

    Seriously, you should read up on Dunning-Kruger effect.
     
    #37
  38. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    I honestly don't even respond anymore because I can't tell if he is serious or if he is trying to be the parody of a 3.0 player who thinks he hits 110. He just has so many levels of delusion that I would htink it has to be a pretty well excecuted satire but then again there are some people who just truly do not get it. I mean seriously:

    He is a 3.0 player that hits 110 out wide.
    Pro Doubles teams serve out wide most of the time
    No 4.0 woman could possibly have a serve that doesn't go above 50 MPH
    That any 4.0 player automatically puts the ball away every time against any 50mph server

    Any one of these could be written off as someone who is just clueless- but for someone to hold all of these views simultaneously is seriously bordering on satire.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
    #38
  39. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Well I don't know, N-Police sounds like he knows his stuff, I've seen much more delusional posts than his. I would rank his posts, on the Al Gore Internet Delusional Scale, at about a 3.5. He has a way to go, but if he sticks around here long enough, I'm sure he'll pick up enough tips to reach the 4.0 level of delusion in short order--he may need to become a stockbroker first though.
     
    #39
  40. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    It just seems silly to me how I cant ever seem to know what im talking about. I'm one of the very few people that I know who seem to want to move up levels in NTRP.

    One of the most famous people on this site "Cindy" is a 4.0 B, but if you look at her record, she has like all losses... LOL... even playing as a 3.5, but, she knows what shes talking about apparently.

    I have a feeling this represents most of the people here, people who play league, but want to move down, or even people who dont play league at all.

    I admit that im not a 3.0 anymore. I dont even think im a 3.5. My only real loss at 3.5 was in first singles against the team who went to sectionals, but since it was a "social" team, I won my minimum 3 (5 wins total) and only tried to win that one time just to prove to myself that I was better knowing that he was top tier 3.5. The guy that I lost to only plays 3.5 and 8.0... and hes a self rate, and this is his first season of USTA.

    I can play singles against 4.0 "older" players and absolutely punish them. I only have trouble with the under 30 4.0 crowd, or 4.5 "older" players.

    In light of all of this... I dont know what im talking about, because a 3.0 cant possibly be any good at all.
     
    #40
  41. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    Why do you think that Cindy has all losses? I believe I read that she went to nationals.

    Have you played actual complete matches against these "older" 4.0 players? I ask because if you are a relatively new player who "wails" on the ball like you say, those older players are generally much harder to beat than the younger 4.0 players. The older ones will force you into errors and make you hit balls you don't want to hit. The younger ones make errors and are generally easier to play.
     
    #41
  42. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    N-Police, let me cut to the chase because I have to get down to the hot-tub and the pool to prepare for my 11:30 rec/practice match. The only way you'll find out where you stand in the competitive tennis world is entering Senior Age Group tournaments where you are competing on a level playing field with gents who have been suffering the pressures of gravity on the planet for about the same amount of time as you have. All this NTRP number stuff is hot stove league, Monday morning quarterbacking and some heartless and soulless computer AlGorerhytm making judgments about you. Play in your age group and you will immediately and objectively discover what your tennis mettle is made of and play with players who know the rules and rarely cheat.

    G'luck
     
    #42
  43. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    NTRPPolice,

    Let me educate you quickly about my tennis life.

    As you say, I'm a 4.0B. Last year, I was a 3.5. I was bumped up for obvious reasons: Strong play at 3.5, including 6-0 at senior 3.5 nationals and 13-0 in 3.5 adult regular season and districts. So no, I didn't have mostly losses at 3.5.

    This first year at 4.0 has been rougher, but that's how it goes when you get bumped up. I am working on my game, and things are getting better. I win some, but I need to improve my groundstrokes and volleys.

    The reason I feel the need to hammer you is that you pull all kinds of stuff out of your backside. I have played against a large number of 4.0 women. You, apparently, know *one* 4.0 woman. Yet you claim you know that a 4.0 woman with a weak serve isn't a real 4.0 woman, or is pathetic, or is an octogenarian.

    I am here to tell you that you are wrong about that.

    Honestly, you probably should stick to what you know. You are a 3.0C. Perhaps you are really more like a 3.5. That's fine, nothing wrong with that.

    But when you then pop off about what 4.0s and 4.5s can do . . . Sorry, I just don't think you have any idea based on personal experience in competitive matches.
     
    #43
  44. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Its not that you can't know what you are talking about, its that you don't know what you are talking about and you prove this over and over.

    You talk about what a 4.0 person would do to a 50 MPH serve and you are a 3.0 rated talking about your fantasies of what your strokes will be like when you are a 4.0 player. It simply has nothing to do with reality. You simply haven't played against many 4.0 women to have any clue what you are talking about.

    Many people when they were 3.0 thought that higher rated people don't realize how good 3.0 people actually are. Then when you get to be a 3.5 and you realize that you sucked. Then you think that 4.0 people don't realize how good 3.5 players are. Then you move up and look back and realize you sucked. Thankfully I get to play wtih a lot of former D1 players so I don't have any illusions of grandeur- I accept that I suck in the bigger scheme of things even though I have a very good league record and my teams are highly successful.

    As I have said to you before- I think at some point once you have more experience playing you will look back at these threads and see how ridiculous you sound and get a good laugh out of it just like all of us are getting a good laugh right now when you post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
    #44
  45. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    On the serve thing you are just making a common mistake. Virtually everyone who starts playing tennis vastly overestimates the speed of people's serve. They think that a 100mph serve is good and that 50 is a lollipop that may go 15 feet in the air. It is just disconnected from reality. The funny thing is that you actually tried to talk down to people who use a radar gun to measure serve instead of your way of completely guessing which is where you are veering into that satire territory again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
    #45
  46. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    A 50 mph serve that you let bounce to 3 ft is going to be sufficiently back off the net. If a returner is cracking clean winners against a pair of 4.0's something is wrong with their game; not the serve.

    More importantly, a team whose strategy is to even think of hitting winners on service returns, is seriously flawed. It's poor percentage double's tennis.
     
    #46
  47. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I remember that assertion well and simply cannot take someone seriously with such a glaring falsehood.
     
    #47
  48. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I only looked at your 2012 record for which you have nothing but losses except for one default win. You played only 2D and 3D.

    Who said I only know one 4.0 woman? I just talk about her the most because shes my partner for 7.0, I actually know many people in the tennis community here, many of which are 3.5 and 4.0. I have personal friends who play college (now) and are 4.5's and 5.0. I also know some 2.5's. I know a lot of people. I play tennis 4-6 days a week at all different levels, but my league ranges are limited due to NTRP restrictions. I'm actually excited to play 8.0 next year, heh. I might even skip "C" league and play "B" instead too.

    You and many other people think im delusional which is fine, but you guys never address my counter points, but instead, just personally attack.

    Talk down to those people? You guys are the ones telling me I dont know what im talking about regarding serve speed because your radar gun at your club tells you so.

    I pointed out that a improperly used radar guns measurement of a tennis ball can be off 20 mph or more. If you set up the radar unit wrong, it can make a 120 mph serve appear 80 mph if its measuring the racket instead of the ball. If the measurement of the ball is taken after the bounce a 120 mph serve would then be going less than 100. Then, all of a sudden, you guys think that this 120 mph serve is going only 80... that's my point.

    -Serves on TV are measured as they come off the racket face. Fact.
    -If you set up your radar floor unit at the net or at the opposite baseline, that's wrong because its not going to be measuring the ball as soon as it leaves the face.
    -If you're using a handheld unit, you can be measuring the racket instead of the ball.

    I have measured my second serves using the FPS method and they are going between 65-85 MPH. I dont have any footage of my first serve (as ive said) but 85 is not me flattening out the serve at all. Those are all quality second serves with large amounts of spin.

    Call BS all you want, but I definitely know what im talking about. You guys will see when I make my 3.0 YER video because im definitely going to put some flat ones in there for all you arm chair doubters.
     
    #48
  49. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    You definitely THINK that you know what you are talking about. (Though I still cant' discount satire) But you have no reason to think you are correct. You think your first serve is 110 because when you measured your serve it averaged 70? Don't you see how ridiculous you sound when you say crazy stuff like that.

    If you thought you hit 110 because you used the video to determine you are hitting 110 thats fine. If you hit 110 because you asked your coach and you thought you were hitting 110 then thats fine. If you thought you hit 110 because you know someone else who has been verified at 110 and you believe your serve is just as strong then maybe its possible. INstead you are a 3.0 player who thinks you hit 110 because you are flat guessing. That makes you pretty much the definition delusional.

    You stated with authority that pro doubles teams serve out wide most of the time. I posted several videos showing you how ridiculous that was. That means that you THOUGHT you were right but were again delusional and we all got a good laugh out of it.
     
    #49
  50. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I can see why you think im ridiculous but that doesnt make you right. I'm just having a great time here listening to all of you say that its so impossible that im as good or as capable as I say I am.

    If you cannot see the relation to serving 80 mph out wide and flattening out the face and hitting 110 out the middle that tells me you guys dont know what you're talking about. To serve a quality second serve you have to have high racket head speed and great control of the face. If I have that, what makes you so sure that I cant manipulate the face to flatten out the ball and put mostly pace on it instead of spin? That is what I find silly.

    I am guessing, sure, but not all guesses are created equal.

    About the serving out wide in doubles, there are many counter examples, I just gave up in that thread. Here is a video, where 4 righties are playing...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqcWkkfwqw

    If you notice, in the opening games, "someone" keeps trying to serve down the middle and that ball keeps getting punished DTL on BOTH SIDES. If you look later on in the video... he starts serving out wide instead.

    We can post videos back and forth all day...

    You seem to happy to have "won" that argument because you keep clinging to it. If you want to believe that you won, you won. I think that makes YOU delusional.

    Anyway, I think im done with this thread, as its gone way off topic.
     
    #50

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