Mixed Doubles Strats?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by jaybear1909, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I've shown you links to actual pro serve speed match stats, where mid 80s is average 2nd serve speed.

    Are you so blinded by yourself that your serve in the video looks like it's going as fast as a pro 2nd serve on TV?

    That's what you're saying when you say your serve would display on TV as 82. You really think it looks to be going the same speed as a pro 2nd serve?

    As for you saying that it's common to see 3.5 and 4.0 players push your 2nd serve back... I don't disagree. 3.5 and 4.0 players have trouble with deep kicking 65 mph serves. How does this prove your point? The same players would be aced / service winner off a legit 85mph serve.
     
  2. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Well, NTRPO, may be onto something here. I base this on two factors:

    1) After two beers I can't understand what he is saying.

    2) He is eliciting a lot of name calling.

    I think it's time someone contacted the Resident Dean of TW's Tennis University, Crawford Lindsay (or is it Lindsay Crawford, I always get that confused because he has two first names), to arbitrate and elucidate. He's written several books about the science and physics of tennis. If anyone knows how to bring this to his attention that would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to finish my six-pack, I think that will make this stuff clearer.

    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/index.php
     
  3. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    You are incorrect here. Yes they all bounce differently. But they also travel through the air differently. Perhaps you can't tell the difference, but an experienced player can generally judge from the flight of the ball what kind of spin it has on it.

    One other thing: if the ball is moving through the air, then it generally has enough spin to affect the bounce, unless it is hit extremely hard.
     
  4. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    tennis tom: finished 6
     
  5. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I refuse to finish behind that geriatric alcoholic tennis tom. So I'm going to whip up a refreshing Ibuprofen and Scotch cocktail, and go to the club to watch me some 2.5 cuties.
     
  6. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks.

    I knew he was wrong, but you got there first.

    A good slice serve seems to "bend" in the air. That, along with the bounce, is what trips many people up.
     
  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think a pure slice turns in the air in the same direction as it does after the bounce (right to left from the POV of rightie server). That is why you will see them moving away from the returner in the air, and then further away from him after bounce.

    I am not sure about pure kick serves, but there is a partial kick serve used by righties from the deuce court. There was one Federer serve I remember which moved in the air from the ad court into the deuce court (right to left), and then took off towards the fence behind the deuce court after the bounce (left to right). I have a suspicion that all topspin kick serves have an opposite flight in air compared to after the bounce.
     
  8. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    It's semantics.

    The serve that goes one way in the air and then the opposite direction after the bounce is what I call a twist serve. Some folks call that a kick serve.

    Me, I call a regular topspin serve a kick serve.
     
  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Are you sure about that?

    Often I am surprised by how my serves move in the air (well just a little OK) and after the bounce (well just a little OK). Sometimes I think I knew it would behave like that before it did, sometimes I am surprised.
     
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes, what is your opinion of how a regular topspin serve moves in the air wrt after the bounce?
     
  11. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Mmm, it will seem to dive toward the court, and it will bounce higher than if it lacked topspin.

    I hit a topspin serve, but it is not some amazing shot. Still, it is useful. It will dive sooner than returners expect, which can throw people off.
     
  12. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Let me share my secret energy/painkiller cocktail that I bring to the court in my water bottle: 2 advils, 1 ibu, ground up and blended into a gluten free beer with a float of Geritol.
     
  13. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I chose my wording poorly and im trying to be as careful as possible here because people here seem to read my posts with hater predispositions.


    When I say "moving in the air" I mean "the path of the ball related to its angle of travel" and this is taking into consideration server location and serve target. When I say move after it bounces, I mean how the ball reacts contrary to where it will naturally bounce.

    You guys are all correct provided that a server is serving in a completely straight line.

    If a right handed server is standing way out wide and he is serving way out wide how to you think a slice serve is going to respond in flight and after the bounce?

    What if that exact same serve was served from the opposite side of the court by the same person?

    A slice/kick/twist serve down the T is going to all look more or less the same. Very, very few high level people use an extreme side spin on their serve and I find it mind boggling that you guys think this is common. It's nearly impossible to hit a high quality pure "slice" serve because those balls travel very, very slow.

    Think about it. 80 mph, (more or less) pure side spin. If you guys think thats a commonly used serve, you're way wrong. lol.



    Think about the following things:

    A "slice" serve is going to have more side spin than top spin. At this point, if you think people are serving 80 mph with pure side spin that's totally up to you. They quit doing this at 3.5, but you do see some 4.0's doing it but they are usually self rates or absolutely bottom tier.

    A "kick" serve is going to have more topspin than side spin, but the amount of side spin directly relates to the path of the balls travel.

    A "twist" serve is going to have the perfect amount of side spin and topspin related to its target and path of travel.


    All of these balls will have topspin on them and will have slice on them and will travel in the air appropriately to their target. These balls will all bounce differently, that is, predicting the bounce off the flight outside from its natural angle of travel.

    This, plus a serve speed of 70-90 mph is what makes this serve strong. A serve of that speed is fast enough where its risky to try to hit a winner of it due to all of the possibilities after the bounce.



    I measured the serve in that video. You seem to be so eagerly wanting to take that away from me. That's fine.

    Just because someone is on TV doesnt mean that doing something like them is impossible. Being a pro is more than a second serve. You're starting to sound like one of those old drunks at the tennis court who think their local D1 singles player is the best player in the world.

    That serve is going ~80 mph. I have seen that serve and many like it in real life. It's really not uncommon to see a serve like that at 4.0 and 4.5 as a first serve.

    It seems like a chronic illness for people to underrate the things they see on Youtube on this website when they have a predisposition of the player being bad, or greatly overestimate things they see on this website when they have a predisposition of when a player is good.

    The only merit to your "65" is that may be what speed the ball is when it reaches the returner. However, that would be the same for a pro serve because they're not magically immune to having their ball lose velocity over time.

    Also, they measure the speed off the face of the racket on TV. Fact. You and Cindys team mate Spot can keep trying to take that away from me if you want.
     
  14. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    NTRPolice- I think you are misunderstanding the FPS calculation. I think that using your method if you were to look at this serve by Nadal you would come up with a serve speed of 180 MPH. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws5jFNAGfM4

    But I'm not sure what formula you are using so maybe I'm wrong. When you look at that video using your method how fast do you think Nadal's serve is going?
     
  15. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    1) If you want to attempt to have intelligent conversation with me, try not starting out by immediately being a smartass and saying that im going to say that this serve is going 180 mph especially given that:

    2) You obviously do not understand the method if you think I can get a speed reading off this video for the following reasons:

    -This angle is the worst angle a person can possibly use to calculate serve speeds.
    -Although this FPS is high enough to be within a few mph to calculate, its too unclear to tell when the ball was struck or when it hit the court.

    In my video, you can see within +/- 1 frame of when the ball is struck and when it hits the court in the original recording, but since putting up the original recording was impossible (its 38 mins long) I had to cut and trim with WMM to upload. In the video you guys are seeing on Youtube, both the serves shown in that video come out at 77 mph, but that is due to the compression of the video and cannot be helped to my knowledge.

    Also, if you take a look at the Verdasco video I posted, his serve looks a lot faster than mine for a few reasons:

    1) Because it is. His serve is probably upper 80's and mine is low 80's.
    2) His angle is the faster angle because you're looking at it from directly behind and not at an angle.

    To claim that my serve is going 65 mph is delusional. People can use that serve well until 4.5 and to have a serve like that as a first serve in 3.0 or 3.5 puts you lightyears ahead of the average player. At 4.0 and 4.5, if you can aim that serve well and never double fault with it, you're doing pretty well.

    TL;DR

    That video is at the worst angle possible for measuring serves and so low quality that I dont even want to guess. By watching that serve at speed it does look really fast, like 120-130 as the title suggests.
     
  16. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    WHat are you talking about? You can certainly tell within 1 frame where the ball was struck and when it hit the ground. GO ahead and give yourself some margin for error and using your calculation you will still get a ridiculously higher number than was actually measured.

    But you don't like that angle? Here you go. Run this one through your calculation and tell us what you come up with for the serve speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQR8UHNBvjI&feature=related

    I simply don't think that you are doing your calculations correctly. When I looked at the Nadal video I came up with 180 MPH using the FPS calculation that I think that you are using.

    Here is another video of Murray at 210 FPS that comes up above 180 MPH using the method I believe you are using. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwow2QGkNuw

    Or Chiudinelli has a 145 MPH second serve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RGuB1Wj_E
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  17. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I used the FPS method to measure the serve speeds of this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY

    The first 3 serves Verdasco serves are going between 95 and 100, so I was mistaken about them being high 80's. Those serves are mid 90's to 100. This is also practice so I dont see him serving 100 mph second serves in a match.

    (I didnt measure them until this post. My previous claim of high 80's was just from watching the video at it plays on Youtube)




    Just for my entertainment... please tell me how you measured this video taht you posted. I dont know how in the world you got 180 mph, but if thats what you got, you really are a piece of work telling me that I dont know wtf im talking about, or know what im doing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQR8UHNBvjI

    I got 131 mph, so the claim is definitely within 135 range, given I just approximated and didnt break down each frame into parts.

    If you got 180 mph, I dont know what you were measuring.

    Edit:

    That video was saved at 30 fps, however its natural state was at 210. Using the 210 fps as the marker, I clocked that serve at 122 mph. That was just a best guess, because the video was saved and slowed down. It's hard to get accurate readings off videos in slow-mo. It would be better to have saved it 210 fps at "real speed' than to have it in slow-mo.

    I didnt get anything near 180 mph.

    I dont know what you're measuring, but I have a feeling you have absolutely no idea what you're doing if you're getting 180 mph. Or you're trolling. I really hope you're trolling and not actually believing that you're measuring correctly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  18. spot

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    I thought that you were simply using this website http://donthireddy.us/tennis/speed.html and then going off of the initial serve speed reported by the website. So thats why I kept saying that those were the calculations that I got using the method that I thought you were using. I just thought that you were stuck thinking that the "initial serve speed" was the important number when in reality the serves are measured with a radar gun.

    So when looking at the Murray Video I used 210 FPS and 55 frames (even though I think its less than that) It came out as an "initial" speed of 184 MPH. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwow2QGkNuw I was simply trying to guess your method and why you were coming up with an incorrect idea of what serves are actually reported as.
     
  19. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Spot:

    I dont want you to embarrass yourself so I hope you read this post before you respond to my other one.

    I was honestly puzzled by how you came up with 180 mph. I attempted to recreate these numbers by trying various things and I only came to one conclusion:

    You were clicking Play > Pause > Play > Pause > Play > Pause > Play > Pause and counting "frames" that way. That is the only way I could come up with any number close to 180 mph.

    Clicking play and pause on Youtube is not how you measure the "frames". FPS = frames per second. That should have clued you in a little since there is no way you're clicking play and pause 30 times in a second while you watch the serve come over the net.

    Mother of god.


    I am going off "initial serve speed" because thats how they measure it. 55 frames? What in the hell were you counting? Did you count 85 frames, but then -30 frames because the video is 30 fps? Which comes out to 55 frames of travel time? That's so obviously wrong.

    When I calculated the Murray serve video, I counted some odd ~80 frames, which tells me that serve is going 120-ish mph.

    How did you count 55 frames? Or... why did you count 85 frames, and then minus 30 frames because the video is in 30 fps?

    You have to be kidding.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  20. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    I was just pausing and then using the right arrow which I believe advances one frame in youtube. I was simply trying to guess the method by which you were measuring serve speed to come up with an overly inflated number. I never thought this method was accurate and I was simply pointing out examples where it was spitting out ridiculous results.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  21. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    I counted 53 frames between when the serve was struck and when it bounced. Pause it and then use the right arrow to advance a frame. No clue how you could come up with 80 frames between contact and the bounce...
     
  22. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I cannot believe I was arguing with someone who thought that clicking play and pause in Youtube was the right way to count frames.

    Even after clearly pointing out that you have no idea what you are doing because you're still trying to insult me that im "over inflating" my numbers.

    Pointing out examples? You tried to make me look stupid by saying what I was doing would be so off that it would calculate Nadals serve at 180 mph when it's clear to me that if you knew what you were talking about you would have got a number very similar to mine.



    I almost cannot believe I earnestly tried to explain myself to someone who was completely oblivious to their data being improperly obtained and gets 180 mph serve speed measurements because they clicked start and stop on Youtube to count frames.

    And now you're trying to play it off like you were "showing me examples".

    What a clown.
     
  23. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    In case anyone is interested, using a video camera to measure serve speeds introduces a number of variables into the calculation. These variables include capture speed, frame rate error of camera, frame rate error of playback software, perspective of camera, camera capture method (interlaced vs progressive), and rolling shutter effect to name a few. Any of these can introduce significant error. The camera method, in the way that it is being used here, will produce a reasonable approximation of speed, but keep in mind that the error could easily be 25% or more.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  24. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    NTRPolice- NTRPolice- do you think that there is a better method for counting frames in youtube than advancing 1 frame at a time? or do you think it is simply impossible to count frames in youtube?

    how on earth did you come up with 80 frames for the Murray Video except for pausing then advancing 1 frame at a time? I mean counting 53 frames is pretty repeatable. It comes up the same on multiple computers
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  25. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I have never found youtube to be easy to use when trying to advance single frames. You can download youtube vids into other file formats, but I think you risk introducing huge frame errors into the process. Personally, I don't find flash to be a particularly robust or precise video format.
     
  26. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Jeez, you'll been busy tennis beavers over night. This stuff is way too heady to recover from a hang-over with. We really need Crawford Lindsay/Lindsay Crawford, from Tennis U, to decide this one--someone pull him off that demo court back in the warehouse please. If we can get him in on this, I'll buy a lifetime supply of Thorlos. OH, Lindsay/Crawford--HELP these guys!
     
  27. Avles

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    Play-pause on Youtube isn't a good way to count frames. If possible it'd be better to DL the video from youtube (some programs allow this) and use a video player that allows you to advance frame by frame. But I think using the method on youtube videos is going to be a little iffy.

    I don't think it's delusional to guess that NTRP's serve is going c. 65 mph (65 mph is about the average speed of an ATP groundstroke, so far from a dink).

    But it is really hard to tell on video so I'd be hesitant to venture a guess either way. It could be 80ish mph as well, who knows.

    Either way, I'm pretty sure it's wrong to say that a 50 mph serve will be routinely crushed by female 4.0s. I'd imagine that 50 mph is a perfectly respectable groundstroke speed at that level, and a serve is just a groundstroke that has to land in the service box. So IMO a 50 mph serve could be a viable point-starter.
     
  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I reviewed my post above, and if it is correct, then NTRPolice is correct. All serves have the same movement in the air, but possibly different movements after bounce.

    I had cricket deliveries at the back of my mind when I thought that he was wrong. When you bowl (pitch) a ball by hand, you can "brush" on the right or left side of the ball, causing opposite flight movements. However, in tennis, almost all spin serves are hit on the right of the ball (the pancake grip reverse slice is the notable exception), and I think they will all move in the same direction in the air.

    I may be wrong though ..........
     
  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    OK I see where the confusion is. NTR is focusing mostly on the left to right or right to left movements in the air. You are including the dive or dip into the court as well, which is a movement in another direction. If you look at it that way, topspin serves will have a very different flight path, yes.

    Has anyone here observed a left to right flight path on a serve (from the POV of a rightie server) other than a reverse slice?
     
  30. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    No, the serves do not have the same movement in the air. You can tell what kind of serve it is my looking at the toss, the serve stroke, and the movement in the air. It also helps of course if you watch the server in the warmup to see what they have. Kick and twist serves will kinda rise high and dip into the service box, slice serves will kinda float across the net in a straight line. You can differentiate a twist serve from a normal kick serve by watching the service motion, it the racket goes back across the body, then it is a twist serve and the ball will bounce toward your backhand if you are a righty.
     
  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Certainly the kicks will rise up and dip down. I am more interested in the horizontal movement.
     
  32. lawrencejin

    lawrencejin Rookie

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    Let me quote Maui again, who references two wise men and essentially summarizes the cause of current chaotic deviation from the OP. Incidentally, Dunning and Kruger were both in my school when they proposed this theory haha. NTRPolice:

    Let this be the end to the insanity!
     
  33. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    I dont count "dip" into the court because I have never been fooled by "too much topspin". Of course, maybe I havnt seen a kick serve that bounces like 7 ft. in the air, but I doubt anyone is talking about such an extremely good topspin serve like that.

    I didnt feel like I had to state the obvious before, but after my encounter earlier in this thread I may need point out another reason for this "confusion".




    Every quality serve will have a pronated wrist motion. This result means that every serve will have a degree of topspin on it. In order to serve without topspin means you have to not pronate your wrist. A serve with no topspin has to be struck with a "chop motion" which is how I suspect these people are serving, however, why they think this hack of a serve is "normal" is beyond me. The only other way to serve a side spin serve is use a "lefty" spin motion by over pronating your wrist and coming around the opposite side of the ball. I doubt they're talking about that, though.

    If people are "chopping" serves like that then they are completely right in that a serve such as that will move a lot more side to side than not.

    A "good" chop serve (if I can call it that) is not consistent nor is it powerful. The addition of topspin adds to consistency (bigger target over the net, bigger chance of effectiveness) and because a topspin serve is struck with a properly pronating wrist it also has more power.


    TL;DR

    I'm guessing the "confusion" is because people are talking about hacked serves with poor technique (resulting in pure side spin serves). I didnt feel like the inclusion of topspin was a necessary thing to include when talking about a serve.
     
  34. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    I've found that it can vary from server to server. It's important to watch the motion of the server. I've taught myself to basically ignore the flight path of the ball and just concentrate on where I think the ball is going to be after it bounces by watching the motion of the server.
     
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is the reverse slice I mentioned. Dangerous on the shoulders I am told. I know of only one guy who does this rather well.
     
  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The issue is interesting to me because I faced some serves yesterday from a guy on this board (he doesn't post in this section). He served about 3 into-the -body slices from the deuce court which turned viciously in the air left to right from my POV, all the while staying low in the air. On two of them, I approached with my backhand, but the ball turned in the air and came into my forehand, bounced, and then came further into me. I scrambled but the ball caught the shaft and went off into space. On the third one, I anticipated correctly and got the BH sliced return across.
     
  37. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Serve action after the bounce crosses up even a seasoned pro. If every bounce was related to how the ball flies no one would ever get crossed up on serves. Its' quite common to see a pro have to change last min to get to a second serve. They may not whiff it or frame it, but you can definitely see the last min change in their return.

    I tried to illustrate a similarity earlier in this thread about the random frame shot with "blurred" spin which can literally take a bounce in any direction after it lands.

    If serves are crossing you up, then you know you're up against someone who has a great serve. Not many people have enough racket head speed and timing to put enough spin to make that ball jump in all kinda directions after the bounce. Your opponent must be a high level player. It would be very rare to see that in 4.0 or lower.
     
  38. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    What?!
    1. a radar gun is not even remotely a camera. There are no images to process; it's all doppler effect.

    2. an ATP radar gun is extremely accurate (even cheap ones are accurate as long as one's aware of what's being measured) and measures ball speed off the racket face. This is the recognized serve speed and the standard used by all when discussing speeds.

    3. fps method is full of error and really can't be compared to radar; it's an apples to oranges type comparison.

    4. From the vid you have the basis of a good 3.5/4.0 serve; high toss, good knee bend -- I'd estimate about 65 mph. You are doing yourself a disservice by not recognizing it for what it is and the potential for vast improvement in speed with the right instructor.
     
  39. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I'll throw in a lifetime* supply of alcoholic beverages for Crawford if he'd settle this.

    *(Or ten years whichever comes first. Maximum redeemed will be 20,000 units provided Crawford does not live beyond 80. If he lives beyond 80 we'll have to use the factor or .78455945118 of the original maximum to calculate the speed of alcohol induction. Percentage of intake may only be measured in a lab so Crawford would need to get consultants for further analysis as to the proper rate. Other stipulations dictate dividing Crawford's age by NTRPolice's and dividing that total by tennis tom's property tax rate. If that figure is less than than the original maximum contracted units this agreement is void. TT moderators may also modify this agreement in accordance with California law.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  40. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    You haven't been fooled by "too much topspin" because you have been playing 3.0 and 3.5 league tennis. Someday after you have been playing longer you will understand that there are some ridiculously effective topspin serves.

    Someday you will also face someone who has both a topspin serve and a slice serve. You will then understand that they don't move through the air the same way.
     
  41. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    At this point, there's just no getting through to you.

    For a topspin to "fool" me, it would have to bounce 6 or 7 ft in the air, which is the height at which the ball would be over my head when im receiving. I'm also in the air when I receive these kinda balls, probably 6 inches to 1 foot off the ground at contact which is drastically different from when I receive a 100+ mph serve where im planted firmly and "pushing" it back.

    I think you're a delusional average to below average "4.0" if you think there are none of these serves at the 3.0 and 3.5 level, and that everyone chops sidespin on their serves being normal. There are 3.5's now, past, and present, who will be 4.5's some day. You'd be surprised how good some people are. I dont want to brag about myself, but if you think my skill level matches my current 3.0 (C) NTRP rating, you've got some issues.

    There are good varsity high school singles players who play 3.5 and 4.0. Do you think none of those guys serve with topspin?

    I'm not suggesting that there are people serving kicks that are bouncing head height at that level, but there are definitely people with topspin serves where the ball noticeably dips into the court. I also take these balls early... so even if one has potential to jump over my head I dont make a habit of returning serves over the height of my shoulder...
     
  42. lawrencejin

    lawrencejin Rookie

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    Sigh... can we please drop the arguments here? It all began with this:

    This claim is equivalent to: for everyone whose first serves are 50 miles/hour or less, his/her level is less than 4.0. This statement is so logically strong that it is easy to prove by contradiction. All we need to show is that there exists someone whose first serves are 50 miles/hour or less AND plays at 4.0 level or higher.

    Consider the following thought experiment: Federer plays tennis under a restriction that his serves must be 50 miles/hour or below. Would he still play at 4.0 level or higher (e.g. destroy NTRPolice head-to-head)? Sure. QED.

    In case NTRPolice doesn't understand logic, the key point in words is this: don't make claims about other people or players when you have insufficient information and knowledge. Always give others the benefit of the doubt. This may fare well in your social and work life in the future.
     
  43. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    You're exactly right. If the said person is a "4.0" then I guess that makes what you say true. By this method of reasoning, I should self-rate at 5.0, because then "im a 5.0" because then im apparently a "5.0".

    You're failing to take into consideration the big picture. Your method has no bearing on reality.

    If you want to give bottom tier players the same weight as a top tier player, that is all you. There is a reason why all of these self proclaimed 4.0's on this forum probably have little to no game.

    As I said, a 4.0 women who is playing 8.0 could very well go up against a solid 4.5 guy. You guys seem to think that the 4.0 girl with the 50 mph serve is just going to get a 40 mph slice return of that serve.

    As for Roger Federer with a 50 mph first serve? He would be the best 4.0 ever.

    Thanks for the life lesson.
     
  44. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    What people are saying is that a 50 mph serve is better than you think it is, in part because you are likely overrating the serves that you do see.

    Be careful with the comments about "self proclaimed 4.0s" and "little to no game". You may be the best 3.0 that ever played the game (and that isn't sarcastic, for all I know you are). But there are plenty of experienced 4.0 players on this board that are solid and know what players at various levels can do.

    A 4.0 is a player that beats 3.5s and loses to 4.5s - it really is that simple. There are many types of successful skill sets at each of those levels. It might pay to listen a little bit to people that have actually played for years at a level you haven't reached yet. Even if you have more raw skill, you still might learn something.
     
  45. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Actually, im just going to agree to disagree since this thread is just getting redic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  46. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    There are many 3.0 players who think that higher ranked players just don't remember how good players at that level are. Then they move up to 3.5 and look back and realize how much they used to suck. Then they will start to think that higher ranked people don't realize how good 3.5 players are. Then you move up and you realize how badly you sucked when you thought that. Someday you will get a good laugh at yourself for how good you think that the kick serves of the 3.5 level players you have been facing in league play really are.

    I'm sure you have faced players with a topspin serve. When I was a 3.5 player I had a very effective topspin serve. I also know that my serve is dramatically better now that I play 4.0 than it was when I was at 3.5. I know for an absolute fact that the topspin serves you face at the 4.0 level will be better and I know for a fact that there are 4.0 players with topspin serves that you will struggle against. Maybe you haven't faced that serve yet but thats because you have played against so few 4.0 and up players.

    Once you actually start playing 4.0 league matches then you will face players with topspin serves that are good enough that they don't need to use a flat serve. You will face players with topspin serves and slice serves and you will see that they most certainly don't move the same way in the air when served out wide on the deuce side. You are simply speaking out of ignorance once again because you haven't even played 4.0 league tennis. Someday after you have more experience you will understand. Its just funny to hear you talk about this stuff since you are just dreaming about what it will be like when you finally become a 4.0 player. You are more delusional than the rest of the 3.0 players dreaming of being a 4.0 but its definitely just a pattern I have seen many times before.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  47. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    It is amusing to hear NTRPolice say he isn't fooled by topspin serves and just takes them on the rise.

    Professional players are fooled by good topspin serves quite frequently. Maybe NTRPolice needs to give them a few pointers. :)

    You're just not getting it.

    If a 4.0 woman in mixed hits a weak serve to a 4.0 or 4.5 guy, he will try to take advantage of that weak serve. Typically, he will try to crush it for an outright winner.

    If he is 4.0, he will make some and miss some. But the reason that woman is 4.0 is probably because *her other strokes and attributes are better than her serve.* Meaning she absorbs pace. Or her movement is good. Or she is just used to having people blast her serve and knows how to handle this.

    Her challenge is likely greater with a 4.5 guy, but even 4.5 guys come in many flavors. I have played against 4.5 guys who do not blast weak serves. They drop shot the return or hit a short slice, so a 4.0 woman with wheels and an approach shot (or good S&V) can survive against him.

    I just don't know what to do with you, NTRPolice. I mean, I *wish* I had the hands and the ability to absorb pace as some of my slow-serving 4.0 teammates. They do so much better than I do in mixed, despite doing nothing more with their serve than starting the point.

    Honestly, if you want to pick the 4.0 woman who is most likely to succeed in 8.0 mixed, go with the slow-serving, pace-absorbing, quick-footed 4.0 woman. She'll surprise you.
     
  48. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Just another 3.0 returning kick serves by jumping a foot off the ground; planting firmly as he returns the 100+ mph firsts. You are too funny. Get some radar gun photos to show us.
     
  49. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Floyd, although I may disagree with things NTRPolice has said in threads a few threads, I don't think your comment was fair since he has a decent serve (likely better many here on the boards). Now that I've said my peace, "DING, DING, DING"... feud's back on... and I'm reading the intense debate on serving with my bucket of popcorn and tennis tom's 6-pack in hand. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  50. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Corbind, FYI, my favorite beer is Pyramid Apricot Ale and I've recently tried a gluten free beer which ain't bad either having a bubbly quality to it like champagne. I think it's called Red Bridge something? Although the bridge on the label seems to be on shaky footings so like the gluten free fad who knows if it will be around long--but it is quite nice.

    To aid with your calculations on Lindsay Crawford's/Crawford Linsay's drinking habits, I had the pleasure or meeting him once very briefly and would guess he's a moderate drinker. Since you seem to know your way around a slide rule, if you could please calculate your estimate of how many pairs of Thorlos I would need to purchase to last me the rest of my life I would greatly appreciate that. I'm almost into the 65's and hope to be competitive into the 95's, after Alex Swetka successfully petitions USTA to form that new age group category--after that I'm onto croquette. Poor Ken Beer had to play down several age groups (and won) when he was in his nineties to find any competition.

    I wish I could follow this thread more carefully with the attention it deserves. It's nice to see someone else knocking themselves out in 80-78 threads. But I'm busy getting my game face on, I very foolishly signed up for a pro/am this weekend, after seeing one of my favorites Rennae Stubbs is playing and will be facing the Bryans amongst others for some hit and giggle--now where did I put my wheelchair?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012

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