Morals, Lifestyle and Faith

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by hyogen, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    I am saddened to see the morality in this country dropping to lowest of lows. (i.e. 2 girls 1 cup.... he's gay/she's gay so what?).

    Call me old fashioned or a Jesus freak, but if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

    I completely disagree with the statement of anti-gays or so-called Christians who say "God hates f4gs". I completely believe that God loves the gay person, but hates homosexuality.

    Just like God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

    You can tell me to get the heck out of here with my "pious" beliefs...or to keep my beliefs to myself.....or that everyone is different and everyone is ok...just let them be.

    I won't keep going on and on this or other threads about why you should believe this or that.

    But do you know 100% for sure this is true? I urge you to really study it out for yourself. You can contact me and I'll even give you my best time and effort to explain my beliefs and why i don't believe blindly in God. People who tell you that all those beliefs in God or whatever is BS....don't really give a crap about whether or not you live forever.

    because personally, as much as I absolutely obsess and love tennis, this life of maybe 70-80 years of which I'll play tennis for maybe 40 years? just does NOT cut it for me.

    I'm telling you there is something better :) I sincerely hope to continue to play tennis for eternity with all of you.

    That is all. My apologies for hijacking the thread. You should be able to IM me or e-mail me if you'd like. Do it to just mock me if you'd like. :)
     
  2. Fee

    Fee Legend

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    Hyogen, those are YOUR beliefs and you're welcome to them. I don't believe in God, or religion in general, and if I did I wouldn't buy into one that condemned Jodie Foster for the sexual orientation she was born with.
     
  3. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    The fact that you even know about 2 girls 1 cup says a bit about your morality. I'm guessing you didn't hear about it in church.
     
  4. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    Nope. you can question my morals if you'd like. I won't give any excuses as to how I even know about 2 girls one cup, but all I'll say is I regret greatly even knowing about it.

    just because you go to church or believe in God doesn't mean you're saved. Don't trust any pastor, any system of beliefs--study it out for yourself.

    and just because you believe doesn't mean you aren't going to be tempted to do immoral things.

    Fee, I realize they're MY beliefs, but have you ever thought of it as it is YOUR choice to settle for about 70-80 yrs on earth (that can be cut short by numerous reasons) or not consider all of possibilities that some of these beliefs may be true?

    With that, I'll rest my case and check my inbox in hopes that even one of you may be searching for answers and I maybe at least be able to point in the right direction.
     
  5. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I was making a joke. I also wish I didn't know about 2 girls 1 cup.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2007
  6. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    Hey Hyogen, i know your intentions are good, but you have to know that there is a posibility that you are wrong, isnt it?

    Also, i dont think anybody needs a book to tell you what is wrong or what is right, a good person doesnt need to fear anything to do the right thing. I beleive that even if you dont beleive in god but you do the right thing, in the end, everything will workout well for you.

    I beleive JF is true to herself, just the fact that she doesnt need to tell everybody her feelings or her sexual inclinations shows she is happy with her life. Most of the time people that is so open with thier beleives and try to teach other people the "right" way of do things are just looking for a confirmation, something that lets them know that they are not wrong. Just my opinion and obviusly i may be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2007
  7. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    I realize the possibility that I am wrong. I am not trying to teach other people the right way of living (such as sexual orientation)...Not trying to get confirmation that other people on this board agrees with me...

    What I was trying to do was share my belief so that maybe some may become curious as to why this world has become so immoral..like exponentially in recent times--curious to find out what the meaning of life is....certainly not to get rich or become the best at something as all of that fades away. I'll tell you that the fear of hell or the desire for heaven as a prize is not enough motivation for one to believe and live for God. And that isn't my reason for believing.

    I must again apologize for hijacking the thread -_-
     
  8. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    In your opinion, when were the good old days?
     
  9. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    well it states in the Bible that there is nothing new under the sun. there has always been immorality and evil in the world..........so way before my time. I'm just saying that nowadays we are so open about many immoral things--sometimes proud of it. we are more bold to be the rebel, instigator, criminal....and we are more vocal about defying an Almighty God (who might actually exist and isn't just an indifferent creator).
     
  10. Bubba

    Bubba Professional

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    Delusional
     
  11. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    How long? Like when women couldn't work or vote, or when black people had to sit in the back of the bus, or when kings ruled by divine right? How do you know we don't live in the best of times? The murder rate is lowest in the civilized world that it's ever been, does that count for anything?
    Immorality is subjective, though. Like women can wear shorts now, something that was immoral just 100 years ago in the states. Asian people can date white people, more immorality. Elvis dancing was immoral, jewelry on men was immoral, Clark Gable bare chested was immoral.
    Jesus was all three, no?
    How do you know God cares? Do you follow all the old testament laws or just the ones you personally find convenient and relevant?
     
  12. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    I don't claim to be a scholar or expert in any of this. All I'm saying is I have studied enough where I believe I can logically explain my beliefs unlike a lot of the stereotypical "repent or burn in hell" evangelists out there to someone who has an open mind and is wondering about if God really cares/what the purpose of life is...etc.

    How do I know that God cares? I'll be happy to correspond with you outside of this forum. I didn't want to open this can of worms on this thread, but I guess what's done is done. I don't wanna be banned before my 800th post--level-up from Semi-Pro to Professional!

    Yes, I do try to follow all of those laws...there are only 10...including the 7th day Saturday Sabbath (I'm not Jewish), which the vast majority of Christians do not. Do I make mistakes like taking God's name in vain or having other gods (i.e. Tennis) before God? Yes...but it's a process and not just an overnight change of behavior.

    Of course I am human and I err, but the beauty of real Christianity is that there is no degree of sin in God's eyes. You break one, you break them all. No one deserves to be saved more than another due to their lesser degree of sins or lower amount in quantity of sins.
     
  13. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    hyogen,

    I have a question for you. Do you believe that one must accept
    JC as their savior in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven?
    Where do you go if you do not?
     
  14. superman1

    superman1 Legend

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    Sorry, but that's stupid beyond belief. That's why Islamic fundamentalists will kill women for not wearing burkas. An eye for an eye, and there is no such thing as a minor sin.

    You need to start reading some other books. You're an example of religion gone wrong.
     
  15. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    That is a great question and I believe it's a huge deal. From what I understand, the majority of Christians believe that you HAVE to believe and accept JC as savior to be saved.

    What about the millions...yes, MILLIONS of people who lived and died without ever hearing JC's name?

    The Bible gives an answer for this-- It says that in times of ignorance God WINKS at the sins. He is not a guy with a zapper to electrocute/kill anyone the moment they sin. He WANTS everyone to be saved.. So when you don't KNOW that you're doing anything wrong, God turns a blind eye to it.

    Also, for those people who HAVE heard of JC and "believe and accept" him as savior....a HUGE misconception among the vast majority of Christians is that once you're saved, you're always saved.

    The Bible also answers to this as well--what then? Should we continue to sin so that grace (mercy) can abound? God forbid!

    If you accept JC and believe (for the right reason of loving him back --and not for fear of Hell), then you will want to do the things that please Him (i.e. not sin like before). Of course it's hard to change your old habits whether it be drugs or promiscuous sex or whatever...but that's what a Christian life is about-- dying to self (letting your will die), giving your will to God and letting Jesus live in you.


    So basically, I believe that we are judged by what we know. Everyone has a conscience whether you're one of my asian great ancestors (who never heard of JC ever) or a bushman in Africa who never heard about JC. For those who live according to what they know to be right = saved!

    so for the part about once saved, always saved thing...I don't believe in that. It is a gift that you can choose to accept....but like any gift, will the gift giver FORCE you to keep it?

    It says in the Book that even if one sees someone rise from the dead, they still wouldn't believe. There are people who will certainly choose to live as they please and reject God's way, even if they are convinced of the truth.
     
  16. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    I'm not talking about the laws of men here. Sure, if you murder you deserve to be put in jail for longer than if you stole something. I'm talking about salvation. Each of us is a sinner, whether its because we are a serial killer or a perpetual liar. What I'm saying is none of our own good works or us being a better person than another doesn't give us any more right to be saved.
     
  17. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Common sense and other philosophies that are older, wiser and less exclusionary.
     
  18. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    It's always scary to me when people say this:

    if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

    They can find no other reason not to rape, steal, lie, and murder other than the Bible? That's a crazy person right there.
     
  19. CanadianChic

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    As to the OP I am not surprised. Good for her for feeling confident and secure about who she is. She is a very talented actress and that's all I care about. I only feel sad for those who do not have the self-confidence and strength to publicly live their lives their own way (although I do respect Foster's sense of privacy - she appears to be a very private woman in general). Which brings us to this:

    Hyogen, I don't even know what to say to all this. This is 2007 for Pete's sake - move along with the times like the rest of us. You are entitled to your beliefs and I respect that but if there were less haters and more acceptance this world would be a much better place to dwell.
     
  20. johlhausen

    johlhausen Rookie

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    Just a note:

    The old testament laws regarding sacrifice do not apply now, as Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for mankind.
     
  21. Phil

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    As I said, people have been claiming that morals, behavior, etc. has been going down the tube for centuries. Funny thing is, we're still here.

    If I were a betting man, I might take you up on that bet, because violent crime is actually down from where it was 30 or 40 years ago. Okay, not sure about 50 years ago...so, there are not more murders and rapes than there have been in decades past. And I DON'T think there is "more acceptance" of immorality in our society. The country, according to pollsters, is becoming more religious and church attendence is up. Does that indicate to YOU that the USA is more accepting of immorality? This is the myth that people constantly perpetuate to try and build a fall of the Roman Empire scenario. This is what religious people DO to justify their beliefs and the prosletyzing of such beliefs. Just tell 'em that society is goin' down the tubes. It sure worked for the temperance movement back in the early part of the last century, right? Seems to work for churches trying to expand their flocks of converts, right?

    You don't like my style...fair enough; you're entitled to your opinion. I don't expect to receive any awards for my diplomatic approach, but I stand by what I wrote above.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2007
  22. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    That's pretty much what the Islamofascists say about western world in general, and USA in particular. Meanwhile, the world's safest and happiest countries are the most secular (northern europe for instance). He's really going out on a limb here.

    - One, he doesn't even define what he thinks is morality.
    - Two, he says the world is becoming more immoral as if that claim is a self-evident truth. But what is he basing that on? His gut instinct? Sex videos he's seen on the internet? Crime stats? What?
    - Three, he claims religion is the only basis of "morality," that religions equals morality. So does he think there is more morality in a theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Taliban controlled Afghanistan? And if there's actually LESS crime, both violent and sexual, in countries MORE secular than the USA, then how does that factor into his assumptions?

    p.s. The USA is about 84% Christian. How many more Christians do we need to make this country start becoming moral again? 85%? 95%?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2007
  23. jmverdugo

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    Being Cristian doesnt automatically makes you decent nor moral and you can be a good person without beleiving in anything. What is annoying is your tone, you write as if you own the true, there is no true about this, as long as you do the right thing and you are happy with your life everything will end up just fine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2007
  24. Geezer Guy

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    What the heck is 2 girls 1 cup??

    (I know - I've lived a sheltered life. Someone here had to explain "tea bagging" to me awhile back.)
     
  25. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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  26. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    Sorry for grabbing a dog by the ears - but in my lifetime probably late fifties/early sixties when my mom would take me to the train station in Long Island to visit relatives in the Bronx. She'd say to the ' train conducter' " keep an eye out for my kid will ya." I mean today ! going in a train at six yrs old solo, my mother ( God rest her soul.) would be thrown in jail.

    The sad thing today is how violent a nation we've become, it's become " Pottersville" - yea, I know, get real.....
     
  27. Geezer Guy

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  28. Dedans Penthouse

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    There are three breasts unaccounted for?
    Remember the Titanic: they didn't have enough lifeboats either. :neutral:
     
  29. tarheels2323

    tarheels2323 Semi-Pro

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    No; that's stated in a Cheryl Crow song, and not true to boot. Anyway, it seems the way you're going about your belief isn't going to get you into Heaven based on the God you so adamantly defend (well, not really and that's my point).

    I suppose my line of thought is closest to a unitarian agnostic in that I realize that it's impossible to know if any higher power exists, but concede that if one does there are many paths to him/her/it/a big coffee pot in the sky.

    I haven't had a rousing discussion on this topic for some time, but first you should probably know that I have a decent background in philosophy and the academic (not theistic) study of religion. Basically what I'm saying is: have at it...
     
  30. ilovecarlos

    ilovecarlos Professional

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    Hangs head in shame...was too shy to admit to her Beloved Dedans that she too didn't know what tea bagging or 2 girls and a cup were....I know now....somehow, I feel like I need a shower now....:shock:not the tea bagging part but the 2 girls and a cup:shock:
     
  31. tarheels2323

    tarheels2323 Semi-Pro

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    Your numbers are a little off: The US is about 50% Protestant (Christian), 25% Catholic (Christian), 15% non-religious, and 10% other faiths. But, I agree whole-heartedly with what you're saying. It almost seems as if the OP is a superficial believer (probably not very old) that hasn't really thought about his faith in depth enough to hold on in the face of those that really make him think.

    That said, his basis of morality seems to be the Bible and perhaps what his minister/preacher/pastor/fairy godmother tells him (again bringing up the point that his faith hasn't been 1. thought through and 2. challenged), so we know what's behind that door.

    As to your second bullet point, it's not that the world is more immoral, we're just more open about and prone to act on it. This leads us to the idea that immorality is becoming more acceptable, and obviously that's true. But, it's not because there's any lack of Bible-thumpers out there (hell, look on any street corner in an average sized city - any increasing immorality just makes it easier for them to believe in their "cause"), or because there's any shortage of church-goers (religious types). It's because, assuming that all morality stems from religious belief (which it doesn't), the religious are not faithful. They believe that church membership gets them in good enough with God to get them into Heaven.

    Which brings me to your third point, which I'm all about. Religion does not equal morality and I'd be glad to beat anyone that says that senseless (well, more so than they already are). People that think this are the same people that believe law equals morality. Religion may be one source of morality for those that do it right, but it's certainly not the only one.

    There is something I almost forgot: are more secular countries happier, better places to live? Simply put, in theory definitely but not practice. See: the Soviet Union. The human race just isn't there yet.

    So, what can be learned here? Simply put, the Church is obsolete. In this day and age, what we need (again, assuming that all morality stems from religion) is not mindless sheep shepherded by a minister/pastor/any guy or gal with a fancy robe. We need people to think about what the Bible says (I'm not a fan, by the way, if only because of what people have justified by it - so I'd advocate reading the Jefferson Bible) and eventually evolve into philosophical race where much of our morality is due to our faith, but not our religion. Isn't that what Jesus was anyway: a philosopher? It's far past time to think for ourselves.
     
  32. Mr. Blond

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    why must our morals be based on the bible? How about just basic human beings being treated with concern and care? The Bible is not the only book in terms of faith........so why make assertion anyway?

    OP, you should really open your mind to the idea that YOUR view is NOT the view for everyone....and that the views are different are what makes this world great.
     
  33. angharad

    angharad Semi-Pro

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    While I agree with the majority of your post, I'm not sure you can use the Soviet Union as a valid point for "secular countries", as it was a forced secularization. You need to look more at countries that are secular by choice.

    In a UN study ranking countries as "the most desirable to live in", the top 5 were Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, and Ireland. Of the top 3, both Iceland and Norway are largely secular, and Australia reports that only about 7.5% of the population attends worship services, compared to 41% in the US.
     
  34. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Wow, sounds like an invitation! DP, you're a lucky man!
     
  35. max

    max Hall of Fame

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    hyogen: I'm on your side.

    We really are moral creatures, not a bunch of hermetics or isolates. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2007
  36. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Not by much, though.
    Open about what? Prone to act on what?
    Again, we're skipping the most critical step, defining morality. You might think girls in short skirts is immoral and I might think it's the greatest thing ever.
    Totally agree. In this country, I see church leaders getting busted for getting massages from gay prostitutes while high on crystal meth, and higher birth rates and incidences of STD's in communities with more churches than average.
    Places like Soviet Union, they were against religion but shared some of the worst characteristics of religion -- never question authority under threat of punishment, no open dialogue, blind allegiance to ideological dogma. It's true Soviet Union wasn't religious in the supernatural sense, but in many other key respects, they behaved much like a theocracy. I'm talking about secular countries where free exchange of ideas is allowed, dogmatic thinking isn't legislated, live and let live, etc. And in theory, if somebody were to suggest it's more of a systemic problem, how ideology is implemented rather than an intrinsic flaw within the system itself, than I can easily imagine Christians in the USA being very cool. Peaceloving, charitable, non-judgmental, a great force for peace.
    Yeah, people might be surprised to know that the father of our Constitution was a deist. And I wonder if they know about the Treaty of Tripoli:
     
  37. Doc Hollidae

    Doc Hollidae Hall of Fame

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    I blame the internets.
     
  38. jayserinos99

    jayserinos99 Hall of Fame

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    I blame my friend for sending me the link to 2girls1cup. Ugh.
     
  39. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    Wow! What's your source for this stat?

    (I'd be surprised if it were currently even 30% Chrisitan.)

    - KK
     
  40. Lakoste

    Lakoste Professional

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  41. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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  42. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    That was the most disgusting video I've ever seen. Its funny to watch all the "reaction" videos on the web of people gagging and puking.
     
  43. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    George Barna is the "Gallup" of Christianity in the USA. His site is "barna.org".

    From his May Report....

    83% of Americans identified as Christians, yet only 49% of these individuals described themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity. The remaining portion of the adult population (about 17% of Americans) was split almost equally between those who aligned with another faith and those who describe themselves as atheist or agnostic. These indicators of faith identity are also on par with earlier Barna research.

    In terms of denominational affiliation, one-quarter of adults identify as attenders of Catholic churches (23%), which is about half the size of the Protestant-attending segment (49%).

    The Barna survey categorizes people based upon their convictions about life after death and creates two additional faith segments: born again and evangelical Christians. These are not based upon self-identification or denominational attendance, but based upon their personal commitment to Christ as well as their theological perspectives. The percent of Americans whose beliefs are categorized as "born again" has tapered off somewhat: currently, 40% are born again Christians compared with 45% in last year’s study and 43% in 1997. Despite the slight decline in numbers, this still represents 90 million born again believers nationwide.

    Within the born again group, there are an estimated 16 million evangelical Christians, who also embrace an additional set of beliefs in addition to their profession of faith in Christ and confession of personal sinfulness. The 2007 study found that 7% of adults qualify as evangelical Christians, which is statistically consistent with prior levels.


    From these data I think a (Christian) casual reader would say we are 49% Christian as a country. I -- being an evangelical Christian -- would say it's between 7% and 40%. (My peers are usually quick to point out Barna takes a respondent's statement about "being Christian" at face value. And we say just calling yourself Christian does not make it so....)

    Barna's data leaves lots of room for debate though.

    - KK
     
  44. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Hey Karl, can you tell us more about the differences b/n born again and evangelicals?
     
  45. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    To KK. If they're not Christian enough for you or Barna, that's a separate topic. I knew you wouldn't say "I stand corrected," was actually curious to see what you would come back with. The Gallup of Christianity? I don't know. If somebody says they're a Christian I'll take their word for it and let the numbers speak for themselves.
     
  46. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    Oh boy...! So long as you accept this as a *very* cursory explanation:

    "Born again" Christians (a more accurate translation of the Greek is "born from above.") have received Jesus as their savior. They are Christians.

    Evangelicals take the Great Commission very seriously and believe the responsibility of all Christians is to spread the Gospel message and "make more believers." (It is considered a command; not a "suggestion" of the Lord's.) Evangelicals are Born Again Christians who look for opportunities to share their faith and make more Christians.

    (And, so you know, "5-point Calvinist" Christians do not believe in the efficacy of missions work or evangelism. They believe God has already chosen who will be saved; therefore, man is wasting time and energy trying to force God's hand.)

    Remember, that was cursory....


    So now *you* get to define the bounds of discussion on an Internet forum? (Good luck with that....)

    As we know from many previous encounters, you and I perceive the world through very different lenses. That's okay with me....

    - KK
     
  47. Doc Hollidae

    Doc Hollidae Hall of Fame

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    When I said I blamed the internets I was partially serious. I think the way we perceive the drop in morals and whatnot has a lot to do with technology and access to information.

    With the internet, people have a vast amount of information at the tip of their fingers. People can learn and read about anything whether it be legal or illegal, moral or immoral. This is especially true for kids. Most of them are more computer savy then their parents and can usually bypass whatever site or content blocker their parents installed. With no regulation, children are able to learn about sex, drugs, etc. Stuff they would usually learn about from their parents, school, or peers. That's the difference from the "good ol' days" compared to modern society, it's who we're learning our morals from.

    I don't know the statistics or know enough about the subject and past research, but I'm sure the ever increasing divorce rate hasn't helped today's society either.
     
  48. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
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    look what can of works I've opened O_O

    I will try to go back and respond to the posts with thought and care this weekend. I've been slammed at work today. TGIF :D
     
  49. lethalfang

    lethalfang Professional

    Joined:
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    Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.......
    Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.

    -- Albert Einstein
     
  50. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
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    Nah, that's your job, to delete whatever you feel like. But you missed my point, that point being that whether or not they fit your personal definition, about 80% of Americans self-identify as being a Christian. The way Barna interprets his polls, the way he filters the numbers through his personal opinions, it makes his polls meaningless other than as a numerical projection of Barna's subjective worldview.
     

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