More dense string patterns give more spin

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by what a peach of a shot, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. what a peach of a shot

    what a peach of a shot New User

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    I hardly dare to submit this post as it is contrary to "received" wisdom, ie open string patterns give better access to spin. However with dense patterns like the prestige mid I gett much more spin off groundies on both sides compared with 16x18 or 16x19 90 or 95 sqin frames.
    Anyone else think this heretical thought?
     
    #1
  2. Klatu Verata Necktie

    Klatu Verata Necktie Hall of Fame

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    Nope. All things being equal, the more open pattern will impart more spin on the ball.

    Some of the variables affecting your spin production include the weight and balance of your frame, meaning that characteristics other than the closed string pattern are providing you with excellent spin production.

    Drill an open string pattern onto your Prestige Mid and you'll increase the spin production.
     
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  3. HeadPrestige

    HeadPrestige Professional

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    I use to think the same thing--- if there are more strings that means there is more brushing the ball. But that logic is wrong.

    Think of it kind of like a wall v chain link fence. If a tennis ball hits a wall- it will bounce off faster, but if it hits a chain link fence it will have longer dwell time-- due to the large openings in the fence. So on a tennis racket-- since the gaps are larger on an open string pattern-- theball will have longer dwell time vs something with a more dense string pattern.
     
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  4. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    your example isn't great, but the logic is correct. however, i DO find that i can get more spin with my nxg mids than with my o3 tour ms's, both sets are weighted the same with same balance, though i dont know the SW. but they feel almost identical.
     
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  5. Loco4Tennis

    Loco4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    i am tempted to say for sure that if 2 similar racquets where strung 1 with 16x18 and the other with 16x19, they would both hit the same very similar to each other, spin wise,
    my reasoning is because the space in the center of the racquet where the strings cross or intersect and where the ball hits, have not changed at all, they are the same distance appart on either racquet,
    adding more or less striongs on the outside touch the ball on a offcenter shoot only such us in the pattern change mentionedhaving more mains or more crosses might affect more the string bed stiffness then anything else, and the dwell time by string flexing is perhaps whats creating the difference in spin
    imo finding a racquet with the largest spaces/squares in the string bed would create more spin then changing the string pattern
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2008
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  6. jazar

    jazar Professional

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    the string pattern makes very little difference really. its the swing that will cause the spin
     
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  7. jelle v

    jelle v Hall of Fame

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    I don't think there is much difference.. I mean, the spaces between the strings in a 16x18 and a 18x20 differ only marginally. Not enough I think for the difference in effect to be noticable.

    I do notice a difference in feel and power however.
     
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  8. fuzz nation

    fuzz nation Legend

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    I get truly mad spin out of my NXG mid when I want it, too. Those frames have one of the most dense patterns I've ever seen, so it seems to me that while there's a subtle difference in spin potential with different patterns, a racquet's flex and balance also contribute to spinning the ball in a big way for me.
     
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  9. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Conventional logic would say otherwise, but maybe your racquet plays spin friendly for you.
     
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  10. Noveson

    Noveson Hall of Fame

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    Yes they would probably play very similar, but mains are the main factor in producing spin, so your example doesn't really matter.
     
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  11. louis netman

    louis netman Hall of Fame

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    Some physicists could argue that with a denser pattern, there is actually more surface area of contact with the ball than with an open pattern...
     
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  12. Klatu Verata Necktie

    Klatu Verata Necktie Hall of Fame

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    We should refer this matter to the Mythbusters. Adam, Jamie, Grant, Tory, and Carrie can build a racquet swinging robot that could test whether or not an open pattern really does impart more spin than a dense pattern.
     
    #12
  13. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    There are so many factors involved in spin production that you can't simply nail it down to say with certainty that open is better than dense.

    Even if you have two identical frames in every way except string pattern, just the fact that one frame has more string in it will alter the weight and balance which will have some effect on your swing.

    For me the proof is in the pudding. If dense works for you with a particular frame, use it. You may never be able to ascertain with certainty what it is about that particular frame that works for you, but if it's working then go with it.
     
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  14. Chauvalito

    Chauvalito Hall of Fame

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    Great idea...you should submit this to their website.
     
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  15. AceInYourFace

    AceInYourFace New User

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    Pick up a POG Mid with poly and it is clear what an open string pattern can do for you, i can hit nasty ass serves that just are not in my arsenal with dense patterns, i mean i can hit them but with a much lower success rate.
     
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  16. AceInYourFace

    AceInYourFace New User

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    that being said i really want a Kneissl Red Star, the way the string bed is designed to be equal spacing intrigues me, and i have always thought this would or should be the correct way to space a dense pattern.
     
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  17. quest01

    quest01 Hall of Fame

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    Not really because if the swings are both the same, you would still generate more spin with an open string pattern.
     
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  18. Gundam

    Gundam Semi-Pro

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    If we string two exactly identical racquets (weight, swing weight, length but one with denser string bed and the other open) and swing exactly same (Same string at same tension)...

    From the viewpoint of the ball, it will meet less numbers of strings, which means at the same tension, the string bed will give more, which means longer dwell time and with same swing, more action on the ball (spin).

    We cannot compare two different sticks. I can generate spin with my prestige classic mid (dense) as much as I like because it's flexible and heavy.

    But there is a different theory for stiffer, new tech racquets. They wouldn't deform as much as flexible old school ones but on impact the ball will be flattened and actually have larger contact area with string bed (more spin).

    Racquets with big grommets (V1 classic by volkl) seem to work a little differently: Their string can move more where the string meets the frame on impact. This enables longer ball cupping-more spin. This helps.

    When I started out, I got a Ti radical OS (oversize but light and denser stringbed). I didn't feel comfortable hitting groundies because I didn't feel like I was generating enough spin. Then I had a chance to hit with very open string bedded Wilson Hammer 6.2 oversize skunk. Then I realized I was doing alright in terms of swing path, swing speed. Clearly racquet makes difference.

    But definitely, skill comes first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2008
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  19. Alafter

    Alafter Hall of Fame

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    No effin' chiet. I second this wisdom of thought, rather than pointless theoratical debate which obviously can't be proven otherwise.
     
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  20. Loco4Tennis

    Loco4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    whether you have a 16x19 or 19x16 pattern racquet, the ball hits the center mains/crosses the same way, i think it would be safe to say the center 3or4 left/right and also top/bottom from center, for a total of maybe 6or8 mains and 6or8 crosses from center,
    not all the mains and/or crosses are gonna make contact with the ball!!!, only on of center shots which would provably not count anyway will the outside mains/crosses come into play,
    so, if the ball is suppose to hit the center of the racquet ONLY, then it does not matter how many more mains/crosses you have out to the sides or top and bottom, it will not touch the ball,
    also, adding more mains and/or crosses does not change the spacing in the center of the racquet,
    the center squares where the ball is going to be hitting are still the same size on either a 16x19 or 19x16 pattern
    if you wan a spin friendly racquet, you need a racquet that has the center mains/crosses as wide appart as possible
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2008
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  21. Loco4Tennis

    Loco4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Additional info for my last post
    one way people have been able to add more spin t their current racquets, is by stringing with thinner gauge string, because it creates wider spacing squares in the string bed, even if it is just cm's in difference, it does seem to make a noticeable difference
     
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  22. jelle v

    jelle v Hall of Fame

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    You forget that the extra mains where you don't hit the ball, have an influence on the flexibility of and stringtension of the string in the middle..

    But further I agree that a spin friendly racket has the center mains/crosses as wide apart as possible, in theory at least.
     
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  23. Loco4Tennis

    Loco4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    ah, string tension or rather string-bed stiffness after settling,, good point, i did forget about it!!
    then perhaps their will be a slight difference in spin from a 16x19 or 19x16 pattern because of the difference in dwell time at impact
     
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  24. Breakaz54z

    Breakaz54z Rookie

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    Hey I apologize for reviving this but I have a question that's opposite of gaining potential spin.

    I just realized I cracked one of my back ups. Prince 03 Hybrid Shark. All things being equal, the only thing I want to change big time for a replacement backup is that it's more HL, and around the same weight. Being a slightly smaller headsize doesn't matter to me as I'm trying to be consistent with a Wilson Prostaff Tour 95.

    Main question is, will a more open string pattern from 16x19 to 16x18 take AWAY from the ability to hit flat? While I like to hit with good spin, I enjoy flatting out my forehand or backhand when I need to. I was considering getting a Prince 03 Tour as my replacement backup. Or I could get a nPro Open, call me a bit of a non conformist.. but I don't want a racket other people have. I've seen at least 2-3 people at my university club with the same racket.

    Thanks for reading!
     
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  25. bcast66

    bcast66 Rookie

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    i think it is the fact that the pretige is a lower powered frame than you are used to thus you swing faster and produce more spin.
     
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  26. Breakaz54z

    Breakaz54z Rookie

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    bump, does anyone have any knowledge on this?
     
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  27. matchmaker

    matchmaker Hall of Fame

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    Well, your thesis is against conventional wisdom but there may be some truth in it. I have often found dense patterns to give a lot of spin, especially if it comes to mids.
    Prince NXG mid, Redondo mid, Volkl VE mid, prestige mid are all closed string pattern racquets capable of spinning the ball quite a bit.
    Ncode Six-One, K 90, PS 85, with open string patterns, seem to have a lot less spin production on groundies although they do spin the ball on serves, which is altogether a different motion.
    These are just some practical examples... I would be happy to receive any counterexamples.
     
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  28. 1337Kira

    1337Kira Rookie

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    I say you just get the nPro Open, it's a great racquet and it's very spin friendly. Either that or you could conform to other popular racquets similar to it such as the O3 Speedport Black or APD.
     
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  29. Breakaz54z

    Breakaz54z Rookie

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    Thanks for the advice. I notice it's tougher for me to hit flat with a larger headsize than with a smaller headsize. I can also generate a good amount of spin as well with my Tour 95 but not too much. Both of those rackets being 16x19. I've never hit with anything more dense than 16x20 yet.

    It's a possibility, though if I do get another backup, I want to be able to have access to both spin and flatness.

    Can anyone else chime in about less dense string patterns taking away from the ability to hit flat?
     
    #29
  30. lgbalfa

    lgbalfa Professional

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    has anyone who used a 16 x 19 switched to 18 x 20 and if so did you see an improvement on your shots in general?
     
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  31. tennistomcat

    tennistomcat Rookie

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    I know you're asking about it the other way around, but I have switched from an 18X20 to a 16X19 & can give my experience on that switch if it helps.

    With the 18X20 I felt I had good placement & control on my shots. My game was solid all around & the LM radical MP did everything good but nothing great. It was good but I felt my game lacked that explosiveness & was kind of boring.

    I picked up an aero pro & after adjusting my swing to hit more topspin since my usual mostly flat shots were sailing, I noticed I was hitting more winners off my forehand whereas before my forehand was solid but not a devastating shot. I was able to pound the forehand more consistently with more margin for error due to the extra spin from the open pattern - hitting partner tells me my shots are heavier.
    I was able to hit kick serves with less effort that bounced about head high which gave opponents more trouble compared to topspin serves that seemed easy to return with the other racket

    What I lost in the switch was some control, placement, & feel - I have to hit more for zones & direction than spots now & depending on the racket, some feel at the net. My backhand down the line was my weapon with the 18X20 & was able to hit outright winners with it (mostly flat but heavy paced shot) but with all the 16X19 rackets I've tried, haven't been able to get the same feel on the backhand & make it the same as before - just not the same control or feel

    I feel the explosiveness, pace, & bite on my shots outweigh what I've lost & am still trying to find a 16X19 racket that has the same feel & control that I'm used to. The new radical pro that I'm demoing seems to fit the bill & will prob be the next racket that I buy.
     
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  32. Sreeram

    Sreeram Professional

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    Open string pattern will produce more spin than close spin. Proof is take a ball in your palm and try to throw it with spin with your fingers. The more the fingers are apart the more the ball spins (more resolutions in the air). If you have ever played cricket and bowled spin you will know what I am talking about. Spinners hold the ball with fingers wide apart.

    Having said that spin also depends on your swing speed. So if you can swing the racquet much faster then it will result in higher spin. Normally an 18x20 string pattern with its natural control will give you more confidence to swing more freely. Hence you end up getting more spin. I personally feel it is tough to get the control out of 16x19 with 98+ square inch.
     
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  33. Ducker

    Ducker Rookie

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    They would argue that, and they are completely correct ie there is more surface area of strings in contact with the ball (however small it might be). However, Its not that (surface area) that imparts the most spin production. It is the more space between strings that allows the ball to sink or become sunken deeper into the bed. That is why the open pattern provides a small bit more spin.

    I believe also you will gain higher launch angle (all things being equal), and more power with a open pattern.
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Consider the case of the MENTAL game. You are always worried about hitting long, so you back off your swing for safe rallying. Going to more strings, you can now swing harder and faster, and the ball stays in.
     
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  35. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Quoted for truth.
    Most spin I ever produced on groundstrokes was with the Dunlop 300 Tour....18x20 in a small 98. I could swing out, and thus spin ensued :)
     
    #35
  36. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Hall of Fame

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    yes... I suspect if the string bed stiffness of an 18x20 is lowered to the same string bed stiffness of a 16x18 the 18x20 will have more spin because of the mass of that stringbed.

    This is just conjecture and it would be nice to see a lab test.
     
    #36
  37. KenC

    KenC Professional

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    Previously I used a PDGT and then switched to the PSLGT. Now I have more spin, more power and more control. Granted, I also improved my technique since it became obvious to me that the PDGT is not a substitute for proper technique. When my technique started to improve my game deteriorated because of the limitations of the PDGT and I had to switch.
     
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  38. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I switched from a series of 16x19 frames to the PSL which is 18X20. When I demoed frames at the time I also demoed the Fed frame 16x19 and the KBlade Tour 18x20. I found I was able to more with the two 18x20 sticks more often because of the noticeably superior control.

    The 6.1 was nice, and had good power and excellent spin, I just didn't find it as consistent. I think there is a balance of swing speed and spin that everyone will have to find for themselves. Some people will never swing fast enough to find benefit of a lower powered 18x20 frame. They will find more benefit from a higher powered 16 main pattern.

    This is just one of those individual things. There isn't a "right" answer. However if you are indeed beastly I think you will want an 18 main pattern. ;-)
     
    #38
  39. stingstang

    stingstang Rookie

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    Small, thin, good heft but easy to swing = prestige mid can get great spin if you hit accurately.
     
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  40. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thats why i like the asian blx 90 i have. It has a 16 main pattern which gives good bite for spin plus it is not very heavy so you get good racket head speed.

    But because it is a 90 it does not trampoline like the midplus rackets do. So you can swing away with great control and pretty good spin production. It is like splitting the benefits of a tight and open pattern.
     
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  41. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    That's not right! There was a thread about a year ago with a link to a Japanese study conducted with high speed recording that established that it's the additional movement and snap back of the strings in a more open pattern that produces more spin. Have you ever heard of spaghetti strings? Poly is very hard and slippery. So, it can move back and forth very readily upon contact with a ball. In an open pattern, it can move further on contact and, therefore, produce a bigger snap back, similar to the effect of spaghetti strings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
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  42. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Gotta use more flexibility in your thought.
    Sure, obvious is less strings, more trampoline.
    But there's the less obvious.
    More strings, more control and less power, right? Meaning, now you can go out and swing the snot out of your racket, and the ball goes IN, so you hit with more spin, more power, and feel comfortable going for it.
     
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  43. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I'm not sure what you mean by "trampoline." But, I'm talking about the interwoven main strings moving back and forth almost like spaghetti strings. The more open the pattern, the more poly string can move and snap back. That's why poly produces more spin than gut. Gut moves but doesn't snap backi. And that is also why open patterns produce more spin than dense patterns.
     
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  44. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Just too much limiting in your thought process.
    You see a C as a lefty U.
    But it can be an upside down D without the post, right?
    I swing really fast, getting slower with age. Playing against a strong hitter, a dense string pattern gives me more control, so I can hit back harder.
    Against the same hard hitter, my 16x18 tends to spray the ball more, mishits less forgiving, and I tend to guide the ball, instead of hitting it.
    Confidence allows a player to hit harder, so it's not all about open or closed patterns.
     
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  45. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    My thought process is fine. You just changed the subject.
     
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  46. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Well, I have just switched from 18 X 20 to 16 x 20 and I think I am generating more spin, particularly on serve and FH.

    Racquet specs are otherwise almost identical, the new one has a slightly wider beam and is a bit stiffer, but that's it.

    Identical strings and tension (Head sonic pro 17 @ 55)

    A sample of one isn't data, of course, but still...
     
    #46
  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "more dense string patters give more spin".. ??????
    That's the title.
    Your though process is inflexible, you approach it from ONE direction.
     
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  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I"m in your boat, as you know.
    Switching from more to less strings, but also to a lighter racket, I can hit more spin IF the incoming ball is not coming too fast.
    IF the incoming ball IS coming too fast for me to handle comfortably, I can hit it back with more pace and more spin with the heavier stic
    vs. better players, heavier stick, around 12 oz.
    vs weak hitting softballers, lighter stick around 10 oz so I can hit it hard.
     
    #48
  49. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Here's the article I referenced above. Be sure to watch the video. It's a definitive explanation: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-new-physics-of-tennis/8339/
     
    #49
  50. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    There is the theory of tennis....what should work according to logic, and there is the PRACTICE of tennis.....what really works on the court using human beings, in all their flaws.............:):)
     
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