More dense string patterns give more spin

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by what a peach of a shot, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Your thought process prevents you from staying on point. The trampoline effect you interjected into the conversation is inapposite to the discussion. Now, please sit down and shut up.
     
    #51
  2. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    And you are the most human being of them all, Lee.
     
    #52
  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Of course I am. I often post about my frailties and failures in tennis.
    Most posters only mention their successes.
    See, there's TWO sides to every story. Even though I don't acknowledge your side of the story, it doesn't mean I don't recognize it and agree with it...in theory.
    Open up. You're too closed minded. When someone asks you... say...."when did the spanish war happen, you might answer .... the exact date ...OR, you might mention the circumstances that LED to the war....
    That's two answers, both correct. You keep mentioning the date. I refer to the circumstances.
     
    #53
  4. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Thank you, Sensei!
     
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  5. rufusbgood

    rufusbgood Semi-Pro

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    Somebody recently put a Snauwaert Hi Ten 30 (12M x 13X) up for sale on the big auction site and it fetched $400. In it's day, keeping the thing strung was a real problem but with today's strings who knows what it's capable of.

    [​IMG]
     
    #55
  6. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Looks a bit like a modern Yonex. It also looks like an 85si head size which would tend to counter the open string pattern a bit.

    Conversely, imagine playing with the old wood Dunlop Fort or Wilson Kramer, both 65si heads with 18x20 string patterns.
     
    #56
  7. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    What's it definitive of in your opinion? That strings with less friction produce more spin, or less strings produce more spin?

    Even knowing that string snap back can contribute to spin, it's not clear to me that it's a simple calculation that determines whether 16x18 or 18x20 is better for a particular individual.
     
    #57
  8. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    From the article and video demonstration, I would conclude that if all other things are equal, a denser string pattern of interwoven strings will inhibit string movement - and subsiquent snapback - compared to a more open pattern.
     
    #58
  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Denser string pattern rackets tend to get strung with softer tension, refuting some of that argument.
    I regularly use 5 lbs less tension in 18x20 than I do with 16.19 frames
     
    #59
  10. corners

    corners Legend

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    A robot isn't necessary. All you have to do is fire balls at a stationary racquet with an impact angle commensurate with what happens in a real topspin shot. This was done last year by Tennis Warehouse's own "Professor" (aka Crawford Lindsey, coauthor of "Physics and Technology of Tennis" and "Technical Tennis") in his paper "Spin and String Pattern."

    As long as the main strings are relatively free to slide sideways and snap back (in other words, they are not locked in place), Lindsey's experiments show that a more open pattern will generate more spin than a closed pattern. Fewer cross strings means less total friction between those strings on the mains, allowing the mains to slide and stretch sideways and then snap back more freely and with more energy. Additional spin is provided by the mains during the second half of the impact, when they snap back into position and exert a spin-inducing torque on the ball.

    Note that in these experiments conventional string patterns were compared with extremely open patterns where half the cross strings were skipped (somewhat similar to the old Hi-Ten racquet or Vortex Extreme Spin frames). The extremely open patterns generated much more spin, but the difference between 16x19 and 18x20 in the same headsize is probably much smaller. But on today's market we have 90 inch heads with 18x20 patterns and 110 inch heads with 16x18 patterns. Here we would expect to see significantly more spin with the very open pattern in a big head.

    This snapback effect is also improved by using strings with low string-on-string friction coefficients, such as copoly strings. Conversely, it may not function much at all with sticky strings such as notched syngut or polyurethane-based multis (Technifibre Biphase, et al.). With the latter types of strings a player might not see much difference between open and closed patterns because the strings are pretty much locked in place, regardless of the string pattern.

    The Professor has also built a database of string on string friction coefficients: sliding and static COFs. Just because a particular string slides with little friction on another doesn't necessarily mean that it generates more spin, but slippery copoly strings have been shown in other experiments to generate 20-30% more spin than sticky synguts or multis, so these lists do give a decent indication of which strings will give a spin boost through main string snapback.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
    #60
  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    They didn't compensate with lower string tension on rackets with more strings, did they?
     
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  12. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    That's reasonable, but that doesn't tell us all we need to know to predict actual spin on the ball.

    For instance, in a more dense pattern, can more strings participate in the snapback. What is the force over distance relationship? What is the potential range of action and what affect does it have on control? We should probably make the assumption that we want an increase in spin only up the the point where are percentage of shots going in does not decrease.

    I think this is just too complicated a problem to simply jump on one bandwagon or the other.

    For me, having the higher control and lower power of a dense pattern allows me to hit the ball with more spin because I can swing harder and still hit the ball in the court.

    As an interesting aside, I occasionally play with an old 65 sq. in wood frame and can get significant spin with it. It has a 16x19 pattern IIRC, but when looking at the density of the strings they are very close, maybe more dense than my PSL.
     
    #62
  13. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Agree with Kevo.
    It's not only the racket, but what the racket ALLOWS, that can determine our spin potential. In this case, you can substitute "racket" for "strings".
     
    #63
  14. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    What wood racquet is that? All standard size wood racquets that I have ever used have been all 18x20.
     
    #64
  15. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    It's a bancroft newport. It's actually 16x20 I think. I'd have to look at it to be sure though. I've only strung it twice. And the last time was a while ago since I put poly in it.
     
    #65
  16. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Remember I said "all other things being equal." I was merely answering the OP, and a subsequent recent post that asserted the premise that an open string pattern allows the ball to sink in to the string bed more, resulting in more spin. The study that I posted a link to explains that it is string movement and snapback that enhances spin. All other things being equal, an open string pattern has to allow more movement.

    I think spaghetti string racquets of the 70's answers your question, which is, no! It takes very few stings to impart a massive amount of spin. I don't know if there's a point of diminishing returns, but that's not relevant to a 18x20 vs. 16x19 comparison. BTW, I grew up playing with Dunlop, Wilson and Davis wood racquets. I don't know if they were all exactly 65si, but I know the Dunlop and Kramer had 18x20 string patterns.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
    #66
  17. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    Yes, but I don't think he answered the question of what works better and for whom. In that set of experiments there was no 18x20 pattern tested. If I missed it, someone please point it out.

    Also, the open patterns were not something you'd find in a retail frame. He also demonstrated that the consistency of the open patterns was quit poor compared to the 16 main pattern.

    So if you take actual tennis playing and players out of the equation then it's probably true that open patterns give more spin. However, throw in real players and real racquets and it's not clear to me that one is better than the other for any random player, or what the parameters are for making that decision.

    There's also the question of what speed and spin ratio have the most effect on the flight of the ball and the rebound off the court. Too much speed on the ball and the spin doesn't bite as much as it does when the ball is traveling slower. There really are a ton of factors to this.
     
    #67
  18. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    But, the evidence can be logically extended. If you have identical sized racquet heads, identical string and identical tension swinging at identical trajectories, hitting identical balls coming in at an identical speeds, is there an argument that the closed string pattern will impart even as much topspin than the open pattern? Given the evidence, it seems implausible to me.
     
    #68
  19. corners

    corners Legend

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    Read the paper and find out Lee.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Cause and effect.
    If more strings ='s more control, and less spin, stands to reason that you can hit harder because of it!
    Don't need to read papers. Try playing tennis and figure out what's happenning.
     
    #70
  21. corners

    corners Legend

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    You've got it backwards.

    Good luck.
     
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  22. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    To each his own.
     
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  23. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I tend to agree with this. My problem with studies and discussions like this is there is no attempt to define the range of the affect and it's actual application to a player. If we conclude or make the assumption that more open pattern = more spin given no other difference in the frames, what effect does that have for a particular player. I think that without having the parameters necessary to actually apply this knowledge appropriately it doesn't really help much.

    My hypothesis based on experience is that the difference in spin between the two frames is negligible for any particular player. I could be wrong about that entirely, but in my experience you are much more likely to accurately predict if a player hits with a lot of spin or average spin based on the swing path they use to hit the ball.

    I would like to know what happens for a player with average spin and a player with a ton of spin when you swap in identical frames with only the string pattern varying.

    IOW, is it worth considering the increase/decrease in spin of a given pattern over other factors such as feel, consistency of launch angel, etc.?
     
    #73
  24. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    Man, I don't know what's more retarded, your username or the header for this thread.
     
    #74
  25. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Bing Bing Bing. Give that man a cigar. That's it in a nutshell. Amazing how the most useful posts often go completely ignored, while the bullets of dispute are whizzing by overhead. Can only add (as an informational asterisk) that Lindsey's testing by his own admission, were conducted at relatively low speeds, and low tensions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
    #75
  26. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I can tell you that there's a HUGE difference in the ball flight when I use a full bed of poly vs a full bed of natural gut with the same racquet and the same swing path. With poly, I have to clear the net by 6 feet to get the ball past the service line.
     
    #76
  27. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    So for you is that good or bad? I tried all sorts of different Nat guts a few years ago and determined that while they are great for feel/comfort, and pace of serve, they were not good for me because my number 1 priority is control.

    I did not find any issues with the level of spin I could generate with gut, just that I couldn't accurately predict where the ball was going to go some of the time. My favorite thing about a good poly is I can tell by feel of the hit near 100% of the time if the ball is going where I intended.
     
    #77
  28. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Is it possible to have more than ONE correct answer here?
    1. "all equal, less strings more spin".... yes.
    2. "all" is never equal....yes.
    3. Setup that ALLOWS the player to swing faster has more spin...yes.
    4. Fast incoming balls need a different setup than slow incoming balls.. ????
    5. All players are not equal.. yes?
    6. Different setups can affect different players DIFFERNTLY...,yes.
    7. Is the THEORY more important than the actual effect to the player...???
     
    #78
  29. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Having spent the last 1.5 years converting my strokes from old school Eastern drives, to modern heavy topspin strokes, poly strings are a huge advantage, especially when combined with a power racquet designed to maximize the benefits of modern strokes.
     
    #79
  30. Hitman99

    Hitman99 Rookie

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    Agree. First time I hit with a full poly bed, I was basically hitting topspin lobs on my service returns (doubles). The ball was going clean over the net man's head, landing inside the baseline. That lasted until the strings went dead, then it just played like a brick.

    IMO, the open string bed will almost always produce more spin, all else being equal.
     
    #80
  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    All else is NEVER equal in real tennis, tis only equal in your mind and your theory.
    More strings, more weight, more air drag, heavier SW right off the bat.
     
    #81
  32. corners

    corners Legend

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    Oh, thanks. Yeah, that's right - those experiments were done at low impact speeds with low tensions corresponding to those low speeds. But he's done some others that were looking at factors other than string pattern but also touched on the question of string pattern. This one generated some comparative data about string patterns during 60mph impacts. The extremely open pattern generated way more spin.
     
    #82
  33. makenakai

    makenakai New User

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    My 6 cents worth.

    Since snapback appears to be the critical factor, let us consider all other factors as + or - total snapback parameters. Decreasing inter-string friction; increasing flexibilty (not past a certain minimum); Increase number of strings. The optimum set up should therefore be: Textured poly mains not too tight; much looser multi crosses; denser pattern; silicon spray.

    I have personally found this to be true excepting the string density factor. I am seeking an 18x20 Tour100 to test this.

    aloha

    Makena

    EXO3 Tour100 16x18 stock
    SPPPHex 16L main 44
    MicroSheep 17 cross 40
     
    #83
  34. 5point5

    5point5 Banned

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    Think of it this way,

    A denser pattern works like a trampoline, less ball pocketing.

    Open pattern has more ball pocketing, e.g throwing a ball at a chain linked fence.

    Personally I think the difference is marginal.
     
    #84
  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Marginal I'd agree sorta.
    Really hard hitters seem to prefer denser patterns, for control, so they can swing really hard and keep the ball IN.
    Moderate hitters and weak hitters seem to prefer less strings, for more easy power, some trampoline effect, and more spin.
    I'm the latter wishing I was the former.
     
    #85
  36. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Dense patterns have a lower ball flight, which forces me to brush more.
     
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  37. freeez

    freeez New User

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    I went from hitting with a dunlop 4d 300 to tf295 to tf320, All three are are very open pattern 16x19 that are really spin friendly(must be tried). I now swing a pb10 295 18x20 that has the best directional control and the least spin of the four. I still get excellent spin just not the same as with the others. I now have better precision on my topspin and slice serves.
     
    #87
  38. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Exactly there are always these posts claiming spin comes from the player and his technique. Well no ****, but the same player with the same technique using different string patterns, rackets and strings will notice different amounts of spin.
     
    #88
  39. klementine

    klementine Hall of Fame

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    ^Tried and true.
     
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  40. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I went from a 347 gram open pattern stick to a 330 gram 18x20. The trajectory is lower but i hit a lot heavier according to people i hit with. I am a guy that likes to hit it hard and loves the control of the tighter pattern. The main adjustment is just getting more net clearance, but that took about a day and i was fine.

    So i think spin is all about head speed since i am hitting with more spin using the lighter stick and controling it better with the tighter pattern.

    If i had an open pattern in the same stick, i would get a little more more spin and a higher trajectory but at the cost of the control and more penetrating ball.
     
    #90
  41. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Given the same swing speed and angle the open pattern will impart more RPMs to the ball.

    However, denser patterns are generally "lower powered" and allow one to hit with greater swing speed while imparting a similar level of energy to the ball as an open pattern at lower swing speed.

    Since spin is mostly technique and RHS I do agree with you that denser patterns, while not generating as many RPMs as open patterns at the same speed, may allow one to hit with greater RHS thus imparting more RPMs while retaining control of the ball.

    The deflection angle on dense patterns is also more predictable than with open patterns. Since spin is dependent on good timing and deflection angle errors increase with poor timing denser patterns might be more forgiving if your timing is off when hitting at extreme angles and speeds to generate lots of spin.

    I own two AG 200s and two AG 200 Tours (modified for lower SW by removing the bumper gaurd). I can easily generate as much, if not more, spin with the base 200s than with the Tours. Spin helps keep the ball in bounds while going over the net and that takes racquet head speed. I can cut loose on the ball with the 18x20 200s and if my angle is off a bit their lower power and more forgiving deflection angle means fewer errors. With the Tours I need to string tighter and use a stiffer cross to get the same result and margin for error.

    So the topic is far more complex than a simple "open vs dense". You need to factor in racquet head speed, deflection angles, stringbed stiffness, string movement, and resulting margin for errors. (eg dense patterns inhibit string movement which appears to augment spin with a snap back effect while open patterns allow strings to move and snap back more freely).

    I think this a key advantage of Luxilon's 4G string. In my 16x19 Tours I get nearly as much control (predictable rebound off the sb) with 4G crosses as I do with my 18x20 200s. With its low tension loss the SB retains the control for many hours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
    #91
  42. TimothyO

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    I'm a huge fan of TWU's friction research and follow it closely. I can also see its benefits on the court.

    But since I'm not a robot with perfectly consistent strokes I think one must also consider string bed stiffness, a function of string density and materials, as it pertains to margin for error and spin.

    Even the TWU research indicates that a SB must nit be too soft/prone to error or too stiff/locked up to maximize spin potential. The key word is "potential".

    Each SB has its own spin potential which can be exploited to varying levels of success based on player skill. I feel open/softer SBs demand better timing since not even hyge RPMs will overcome shanks and extreme mishits. Meanwhile dense/stiffer SBs, as long as they don't lock up, allow one to hit with greater RHS with greater confidence and predictability.

    For we rec players this probably means stiff SBs that still move freely and snap back for max control and spin. Too soft and even with lots of spin we lose control. Too stiff and we lose the benefits of low friction.

    You get that SB in different ways...it depends on how head size, string count, string materials, frame weight, and player technique interact.
     
    #92
  43. hersito

    hersito Rookie

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    I played with a wilson blx pro team fx, then with an APDGT and now with a Head MG Radical MP, I have a lot more of control but a lot less spin, spin creation with the Apdgt is incredible, and Im not a very good tennis player but I can feel the difference, it's that big.
     
    #93
  44. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I have been trying some 18x20 patterns and finding the same thing.
     
    #94
  45. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    The OP posted this (obviously incorrect) topic almost 5-years ago and never came back after the first post. It's funny that it keeps getting revived.
     
    #95
  46. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    I didn't read the entire thread so sorry if someone else said this.

    16x19 in a 90sqin head will be similar to 18x20 in a 95-100sqin head, so the 93sqin on the prestige will be only slightly more dense. But they are different rackets and if you have different strings as well these are more likely causes for the extra spin. 100% of the time, all other things being equal, a more open pattern causes more spin.
     
    #96
  47. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    ugh, let this thread die.
     
    #97
  48. prjacobs

    prjacobs Professional

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    Personally, I get more spin with more open patterns and more control with denser patterns.
    I also find denser players easier to beat :) .
     
    #98
  49. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Also should be noted that the Prestige head size is actually 89.5, which is smaller than a 90. :razz:

    -Fuji
     
    #99
  50. dyldore

    dyldore Rookie

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    Oh, maybe the one he has is. The newer ones are 93sqin.
     

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