Most talented player of all time

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Just curious about your opinions on who is the most talented player ever. It doesn't necessarily mean achievement but you can for example name a player like Safin if you think he's the most talented ever. It's all subjective and I'm curious about people's thoughts here. You can name the most talented male player and the most talented female player. No such thing as wrong answer here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
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  2. helloworld

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    John McEnroe.
     
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  3. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I would take Mac easily on the mens side. Although there certainly are a lot of players like Leconte and Pioline that oozed all kinds of talent.

    On the womens side, I think Martina, Hana, and Evonne had the most raw talent of the players that I saw.
     
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  4. urban

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    Most older Aussies would say Lew Hoad, he had the game, the power, the looks. I have seen only short clips, so i cannot really evaluate him. I have never seen a more complete player than Rod Laver. Nastase and Borg had amasing athletic abilities, but in pure technical terms, they had not the complex game of Laver. McEnroe had a more dramatic touch around the net, but not the devastating groundies. From the newer generation, Leconte or Mecir could make the ball talk. Becker had the raw power, but as a tennis player, Michael Stich probably was more complete. Safin is a modern day Hoad, big, dramatic and good looking, and with an eye for the high life.
     
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  5. heninfan99

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    Magnus Larsson
     
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  6. pc1

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    I'd read a lot of people who would pick Lew Hoad. However I find Ken Rosewall's opinion of Rod Laver to be quite interesting. This quote is from the book "Playing Tennis with Rosewall." When he is playing confidently I cannot think of a more destructive tennis machine than Rod Laver. He is one of the toughest players you could ever have the misfortune to meet. He hits the ball hard, moves like lightning and has no weaknesses--so how do you beat him? To be honest you do not, unless a chink appears in his armour. It used to be his forehand volley but that's no weakness now. Occasionally it is his service which still lets him down at times. However in the last five or six years his service has improve out of sight. He is hitting even harder now than he used to and the wicked spin that he can command and the disguise he can achieve-particularly when running flat out to make his shot, makes him a really hazardous opponent to face.


    I would guess in reading that that Rosewall thinks Laver may be more talented than Hoad.

    Borg had incredible gifts also along with Nastase, Mecir. McEnroe and LeConte. Stich was a disappointment to me because I thought he was so gifted and would surpass Becker. Sampras praises Stich in his book.

    For women, I think Serena Williams, Hana Mandlikova, Evonne Goolagong, Graf and I thought Jennifer Capriati had great talent.
     
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  7. max

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    An interesting prospect. Offhand, I would offer Lew Hoad or Pancho Gonzales.
     
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  8. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    yep. McEnroe at age around 50 playing in senior tour, still makes me wonder "how the hell does he do that?". as a tennis player, i always feel like he is the biggest mystery in my understanding of the game. McEnroe makes me spent the most amount of time to think about "what is tennis after all" if you know what i mean.

    then again, i only followed tennis about 20 years. in terms of pure atheleticism, Sampras is the most complete players I've ever seen. (I just have not seen much of Laver or Gonzales. Not in a position to say anything about pre-open era.)
     
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  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Fastdunn,

    McEnroe is one of the most unique players in the history of tennis. He has more talent in a single cell than most players have in their entire body. His hands are so fast and his touch is stunning.

    Sampras is a great athlete, one of the finest in tennis history. Sampras in his book wrote that he felt his athleticism give him an advantage over Agassi in their matches or at least he wrote something to that effect.
     
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  10. Bagumbawalla

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    If we're just talking talent, then Ilie Nastase was, when he was not clowining or ranting, one of the most gifted players on any surface, and had a streak of winning the Masters against the top players of his day.
     
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  11. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    Stich, Korda, Fed, Safin, Laver,Andre, Mac, Lendl, Pete from a pure talent perspective . There are so many to choose from.
     
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  12. egn

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    Yep thats a good list including pre open era you have to count Laver, Pancho, Hoad.

    Determining who has the most is hard because results can also get in the way. In the future few people will remember Safin for being talented because he did not put up results but when you see Safin at his best it is a wow factor.
     
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  13. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's a nice list. I forgot about Korda. He was something when he was on his game. Andre had great hands obviously and Lendl was underrated as far as talent was concerned. He was more talented than most.
     
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  14. CyBorg

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    From the things I've read, Ellsworth Vines should be mentioned. And, of course, Tilden.
     
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  15. pc1

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    A lot of people have said that Vines was the most talented and the best ever when on. And Tilden was considered to be virtually the perfect tennis player with the perfect build for the game.
     
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  16. clayman2000

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    for me whoever you feel is the GOAT is the is the most talented player
    Talent = natural skill + lots of work
    Roger Federer didnt become as talented as he did by sitting around in his home... he had to go out and work on his presice shots...
    And i dont think the GOAT is Roger
     
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  17. NotSoSuper

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    Safin for sure
     
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  18. scotus

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    How about adding Rios to the list?
     
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  19. JW10S

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    Pancho Gonzalez
     
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  20. NotSoSuper

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    Does anyone know of any good youtube clips of pancho?
     
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  21. JoshDragon

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    I think Roger and Pete are the most talented that I've seen.
     
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  22. kashgotmoney

    kashgotmoney Professional

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    Everybody knows its me, im the most talented of all time. Just kidding. i think agassi is the most talented
     
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  23. Shaolin

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  24. pc1

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    Didn't think they had any but I checked out youtube and here it is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY

    I haven't seen the whole clip yet but it's from a special on him a few years ago.
     
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  25. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

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    If I believe the very old witnesses, Joshua Pim was the very talented one in those days . Here are some extracts that I listed in another post :

    About Joshua Pim, Hillyard wrote in 1924-1925 : "Dr Pim then, at his best, was one of the greatest players (some think the greatest) ever seen. /.../ Complete master of every stroke on the court, there were two in particular I have never seen equalled. Indeed one of these I have never seen attempted by any other player. This was a drop volley made from any point between the service and base lines. / ... in a back of the court rally his opponent would drive a ball ... But the "Doctor", on occasion, did not let it bound. A rapid step or two forward, a snap of the wrist, and behold he had drop volleyd that ball short over the net, and left his antagonist stranded and staring, yards and yards away ! It was an amazing stroke, and one that only an absolute master fo the game could hope to bring off. Try it for yourself and see ! The other stroke I refer to was his lob ..."

    Later probably Malcolm Douglass Whitman who had a very short career but seemed almost invincible.

    Norman Brookes who was a very crafted serve and volley player (in 1924-25 still thought that Brookes' serve was better than Tilden's) but had no stamina at all.

    Tilden naturally.

    Cochet who made Tilden crazy for 3 consecutive years and in particular in the 1929 Davis Cup Challenge Round when Tilden said "Cochet plays a game I don't know".

    Vines of course.

    If some (Hopman, Kramer, ...) considered that Budge was the best day in day out and had a very complete game then he was probably very talented.

    Frank Kovacs also was very talented. In particular in his opening match against Budge in the 41-42 pro North American tour the gallery expressed his Kovac's game admiration (the best backhand after Budge in those times). In 1952 he was still able to beat Gonzales (in one of their two matches played at Philadelphia) and in 1955 he had still match points against Gorgo.

    Gonzales hadn't very efficient groundstrokes however he was such a competitor that he was talented.

    Hoad of course (I don't think as you suggest that Rosewall considered Laver more talented but at the time of Rosewall's comment, around 1972 (or a few years before ?)? Laver was Ken's main opponent while Hoad was retired since many years).

    Laver naturally

    In late 1974 Robert "Bob" Anthony John Hewitt (not to confuse with Lleyton Hewitt) considered that the best two players he had faced were Laver and Hoad but in terms of talent he seemed to favour Nastase instead of Laver and considered that when Nastase was hot he could reached summits as high as Hoad.

    Borg was probably much more talented than many thought (but it is true that he worked very hard : 5 hours a day and even 7 hours to prepare the Slam tournaments).

    Mac of course (he was told as not training more than a hour a day).

    Henri Leconte (not "LeConte" or even "Le Conte") though I don't think he was as talented as it was claimed. To give you an example, he never beat Becker except during one month in their whole careers : at Hambourg in May 1988 and a few weeks later at Roland Garros on clay each time, the worst surface of the German. Very often on fast surfaces Leconte could take a set from Boris but couldn't make better.

    Becker naturally : once I watched him on TV stating that in terms of talent he was between Lendl (the less talented) and McEnroe (the more talented) but I think he was very close to Mac and perhaps even superior to John.

    Mecir's performance at Key Biscayne against Lendl in 1987 seemed to have been great (I haven't watched the match)

    Sampras not bad at all : his Asian and MSG exhibitions against Federer after an almost 5-year retirement speak for themselves. In the summer of 1999 between Wimbledon and Cincinatti he "walked on water" as stated Agassi.

    Agassi also apparently didn't train hard in his early career (it seems that his 1997 decline has changed his train habits.

    Stich's win at Wimby has perhaps demotivated him afterwards.

    Possibly Philippoussis : I watched the whole 2000 Paris-Bercy final he played against Safin and until Marat slightly injured himself (the match was stopped a few minutes), Philippoussis was overwhelming, dominating Safin from head to foot. But when play resumed, Mark had lost some of his impetus and Safin came back to eventually lift the trophy. And before at Wimby 1999 he led Sampras 6-4 1-2 before retiring but he proved that he could have seriously threatened the great Sampras that day. And the same year on indoor clay in the Davis Cup final many observers thought that no one could play better than Philippoussis did against Grosjean and Pioline.

    Safin's performances at the 2000 US Open final and the 2005 Australian Open final rounds were superb.

    Federer of course.

    Nalbandian whose play in particular on medium fast indoor carpets can be absolutely amazing : remember his performances at Madrid and Paris in 2007 when he clearly dominated Federer and crushed Nadal both times.

    Nadal impresses me more and more : he never ceases to improve technically so he must have a certain amount of talent. Perhaps he is underrated as Borg was in his time.

    Wait and see for Tsonga.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
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  26. pc1

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    Fantastic post Carlo. I am also getting more and more impressed with Nadal. He doesn't seem to have any majors weaknesses players can attack and as you wrote, he works very hard to improve technically.

    Since you mentioned Mecir, you mentioned the Key Biscayne match against Lendl and like you, I understand it must have been great but I didn't see it. However I did see the 1987 WCT final in which he defeated McEnroe 6-0 3-6 6-2 6-2. Mecir was brilliant. Such flowing movement, incredible angles and passing shots. McEnroe did not play that badly but lost. Of course it was not the McEnroe of 1984 but he was still very good.

    You're probably seen this but here's youtube clip of Mecir against Wilander at the U.S. Open.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2bzlj4ypvw

    Leconte was one of my favorites to watch but I may agree with you that his talent may have been overrated. He was a wild player of course but his speed as a bit suspect to me. I think he was perhaps slower than many players and you cannot have super talent if you aren't that fast. He was fun to watch. His hand/eye coordination was amazing and he had wonderful angle volleys. This is not important but Leconte was my wife's favorite player. She says the players now are boring compared to Leconte.

    One player that some have talked about that had great talent is Frank Kovacs. He unfortunately was also known as "The Clown Prince of Tennis." Bobby Riggs once describe a match around 1950 in which Kovacs defeated Frank Parker with the loss of only one game in three sets. Riggs thought no one in the history of tennis could do that to Parker but Kovacs. Kovacs was 6'3" tall and he had such a great backhand that even a Jack Kramer couldn't serve and volley against and Kramer had one of the great serves of all time. It's a shame Kovacs didn't take tennis seriously.
     
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  27. Azzurri

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  28. gabritox

    gabritox New User

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  29. pc1

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    Of course you really can't judge talent from clips but people at least want to get an idea of what the player all about.

    You can see stroke technique and the way the players move so while you may not judge unless you see more of the player, you can form an initial impression.

    You can't say a guy like Don Budge would be smoked by Nadal and you can't say that Nadal wouldn't smoke him.

    A lot of people have argued about the merits of Ken Rosewall but Ken Rosewall was competitive up to the late 1970's and for example defeated Vitas Gerulaitis in the semi-finals of the Sidney Indoor in 1977 at age 43. Would Nadal have smoked Rosewall? Would Rosewall have smoked Nadal? Who knows? My opinion is neither would smoked either one if they played in their primes.

    Josh has nice opinions and I respect them but to say his opinions are clearly better than the others, well I disagree. It's all subjective and that's the fun of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
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  30. pc1

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    It's has a lot to do with the equipment Josh. Remember tiny wood rackets with small heads and heavier than our racket today. The players didn't have the head surface to put a lot of spin on the ball. If the players played with our rackets they would hit a lot harder.

    If you watch the women players you would think they hit the ball very hard today, wouldn't you? Well, if the guys from the 1920's played today, wouldn't you think they would hit the ball harder than the female players of today? I would think so. Don't confuse racket technology advancement with tennis skills. In fact the wood rackets forced a lot of the players to learn more tennis skills than today's players. They had to because no one with a few minor exceptions like Ellsworth Vines and Lew Hoad could hit a lot of winners from the baseline.

    Tilden was 6'2 I believe, so he was taller than Nadal and Federer. He was a tennis addict and was obsessed with improving himself and studying the game. Don't you think he might have learned how to play with our racket today? I can't prove it but I would tend to think so.

    I didn't see Tilden, very few have but from second hand accounts he was very talented.

    The most talented players I have seen were not necessarily in this order Laver, Nastase, Borg, McEnroe, Mecir, Sampras. Don't want to rate Nadal and Federer yet but I'm sure they are up there. Korda and Rios also. These are players I have seen in person and often on television.
     
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  31. Satch

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    Roger and Safin
     
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  32. Golden Retriever

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    Most talented is the one who wins the most matches in the pro tour. Otherwise it is just a lot of speculation and heresay.
     
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  33. Tshooter

    Tshooter Hall of Fame

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    "Most talented is the one who wins the most matches in the pro tour."

    No that would be the player with the most wins. The most talented, however, was Nastase.
     
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  34. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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  35. Azzurri

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  36. Azzurri

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  37. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    Ilie Natase. Greatest natural talent ever to play the game.
     
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  38. JoshDragon

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    I'm not sure about Tilden being obsessed with improving himself. From what I've read he didn't eat healthy meals and he smoked. Hard to believe someone with habits like that could be more committed to the game than the players today.
     
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  39. pc1

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    Good point but I think people weren't as health conscious in those days. Pancho Gonzalez was known for being a heavy smoker also and he (from what I've read) didn't have the best diet either. I don't think cigarettes were known to be bad for you then. It's hard to believe that people didn't know that in those days but it's true.

    I read in Fred Perry's book a story in which an old Tilden wanted to show Perry something he just mastered on the tennis court. He told Perry to hit a ball wide to him and Tilden used Perry's forehand style to return the ball to him. He told Perry that after watching Perry play that he felt Perry's forehand grip was the best way to return that shot and he didn't feel he would be a complete player unless he mastered that shot.

    That's why I thought he was obsessed with bettering himself in tennis.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
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  40. Yeah probably Johhny Mac!
     
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  41. mental midget

    mental midget Professional

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    safin, absolutely NOT. the safin idolatry around here is out of control. big hitter, powerful game? sure. but 'tennis genius,' mentioning him in the same breath as a federer, or a sampras, which happens pretty frequently on these boards? no way, no how. he's a big, strong guy who could get hot and make trouble for anyone-and that's about it.

    to answer the question, of the players i've seen enough of to make an informed opinion:

    rios comes up a lot, with good reason. maybe the best ball control i've ever seen. i remember a match with agassi, might have been key biscayne, where andre was playing some of his very best tennis. in an interview before the match, when asked what his strategy against marcelo was going to be, andre said something to the effect of, "well, i haven't decided yet whether i'll try and move him around, or just hit right through him." big smirk on his face.

    rios then proceeded to completely dismantle him, it was the epitome of 'teaching someone a lesson.'

    also, stich, and roger, obviously.
     
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  42. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

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    Thanks a lot for your congratulations.
    Thanks to your remark about Kovacs whom I've completely forgotten, I've edited my previous post : he won only one great title in 1951 when he captured the World Pro title over Segura at Lakewood (near or in Cleveland). So he was one of the most talented players with the least record to show. But when he didn't act as a "clown" (he was the Nastase of his time) he apparently could play very well. I've cited in the previous post his match against Budge in the 1941-1942 pro tour opener. McCauley in his book said that Kovacs led Kramer in 1951 something like 15-3 in their head-to-head meetings but I don't know if it was for the year or their whole pro careers or even all their careers. What I know is that in my (very incomplete) stats before December 1941 (when Kovacs turned pro) Kramer always lost to Kovacs. And when a player at 36 years old (in 1955) was able to have match points against Gonzales, then the world #1, you can guess he was very talented.

    I've also watched live the quarterfinal between Mecir and Wilander at Wimby in 1988 and all along the match I knew that Mats would have many difficulties (not to say more) to come back and beat Mecir. The Slovak deserved his reputation of a chess player who could guess in advance where Mats's ball would go and land.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2009
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  43. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Do you think todays players would be as concerned with health, nutrition and fitness if they played in the 1920's through 1950's?? It wasn't even fashionable til Lendl and Navratilova.

    Hell I could say Pancho would eat Federer and Nadal as many said he was out of shape drinking coke during matches , eating hamburgers and hot dogs. So if he put in as much effort in health, fitness, training and nutrition as these modern day guys do, how devastating would he be?? I mean Safin lives like that and how long can he hold it together??
     
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  44. VivalaVida

    VivalaVida Banned

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    It is impossible for me to say. The only "GOAT" player I have ever watched is Federer and I dont know if I can call him the most talented. I have seen many Sampras matches on Tennis Channel though.
     
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  45. VivalaVida

    VivalaVida Banned

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    The game is so different now than it was in those days. What makes you think that Gonzalez even if he put in effort would be a beast on todays circuit? Gonzalez might not even be able to beat Roddick if he was playing today. Every player should be judged in their own Era, you cant compare Gonzalez to Nadal or Federer. Also, Gonzalez played in a time where Tennis was no where near as physical at that time as it is nowadays and he was able to keep his diet of hamburgers and hot dogs.
     
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  46. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    I never said Gonzales could or couldn't. I said "I could say". As I was responding to JoshDragon's post about the fitness and training of today's players. A lot of things have evolved. It's the same with baseball years ago they'd show up 20lbs over weight and needed 6 weeks of spring training to lose the weight, who does that today?? But if players today played in the past would they focus on fitness the way they do now??

    It's probable that during Pancho's time tennis wasn't as near as physical, but with all this baseline bashing one could say today's game is not as skilled, technical or refined. That's why I said a comparison can be made, but it's subjective.
     
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  47. swedechris

    swedechris Banned

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    Ilie Nastase ,Pancho Gonazalez, John Mcenroe.
     
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  48. VivalaVida

    VivalaVida Banned

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    I had no idea you were in the middle of a conversation. My apologies, 380pistol
     
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  49. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Vines, Frank Kovacs, Nastase, McEnroe, Mecir, Rios.
     
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  50. Shaolin

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    ^Excellent list.
     
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