MTM by Oscar Wegner-1HBH

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ED7, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. ED7

    ED7 New User

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5csE9UD1CU&feature=relmfu

    I just watched this video and it contradicts everything I've learned about utilizing the 1HBH in tennis, I haven't tried this particular way of hitting yet but it seems like everything this guy teaches is the exact opposite of what is normally taught. Anyone have any experience with hitting the backhand like this?
     
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  2. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    his instruction in that clip is indeed terrible. better not do what he says. it's weight transfer forward, rotation with arm extension and supination, not pulling back and transferring weight backward. he should just focus on refining the modern fh. and guga certainly do not transfer weight backward.
     
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  3. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    My problem with MTM/Wegner is he cannot tell the difference between Cause and Effect. Falling back is an effect caused by forward and upward acceleration. Wegner is putting the (cliche) cart before the horse here. If Wegner is intending for a player to let their body follow or flow with the acceleration of the motion then that is correct.

    -SF
     
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  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I sometimes hit like he shows in the video, when the ball is trying to jam me. It is a good thing to have in your stroke repertoire, especially if you a lazy guy like me.
     
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  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He himself is not quite transferring weight backwards on the balls which are not jamming him.

    Very odd video.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
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  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He was wise not to take the advice.
     
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  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    That was weird. I can't imagine mtm coaches teach the 1hbh that way.
     
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  8. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    Thanks. I have pulled back when hitting a topspin lob, but this was under duress, and my front foot would actually fall back. I've seen players do this more often on the FH side...

    His suggestion for pulling back seems a little less extreme. Feet are staying in position and he's pulling back w/ the torso/body. I'd like to think about it more to see how he's pulling back before trying it myself. I'm hesitant to do anything to mess up my BH which I feel I'm hitting well. However, the circumstances he talks about (being rushed to hit the ball or hitting on the rise) do break down my stroke.
     
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  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't think they do. I think they use the certification as an extra piece of paper to try to set themselves apart from the pack. A coach teaching 1HBH this way would be booed off the clubs.
     
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  10. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I like Oscar but sometimes I think he stresses certain elements of a stroke just to be a contrarian. There is an element of backward feel in the stroke but no, you do not pull back on a 1 HBH or a 2 HBH or a FH as Oscar teaches. You rotate into the contact point. There is an element of stopping and/or pulling backward to stop from over rotating. But, this is after you have transferred weight forward and rotated forward. Basically, you are stopping the off side (back foot/hip) in order to speed up the front side (front shoulder and arm). You do this on almost all tennis strokes in my view.
     
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  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Exactly. That is why he himself does not do it all the time. He is always preoccupied with trying to find something wrong about traditional teaching, and in that process he overthinks simple situations and tries to create a philosophy out of special cases.
     
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  12. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    I agree with sureshs and CJC -- he over-stresses a part of the stroke that comes as a result of proper advice, and what may seem like a novel idea is really his own, somewhat misguided repackaging of conventional instruction.
    This is a "fix" that may help people who over-rotate, but it shouldn't be something to give one's undivided attention to.
     
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  13. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    The contrarian thing as far as I can see is that in the video he starts off talking about moving weight from front foot to back foot and demonstrates that happening during the swing. Then when hitting, he hits with his weight on the front foot on all but one ball, which he slaps the hell out of!

    I'm not really sure how to take this.
     
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  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He was on the tour - he knows how to hit a hard ball. I too was impressed with his strength. It is his teaching that is funny .......
     
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  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Now it is going to be lots of fun
     
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  17. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    I see a combination of lifting with the legs and controlled rotation using the non-hitting arm; Reeshar's weight does move back, but he isn't consciously shifting his weight from front to back, is he? It feels more like a movement that counters his racquet and arm coming around his body.
     
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  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Imo it is very important for a touring pro to develop his technique till it is
    as you suggest, "unconscious" or does not need to be conscious.
    Imo we should also work to that end as well.
     
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  19. Ash_Smith

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    5263 - what are we meant to be seeing there? Gasquet isn't doing what Oscar demo'd at the beginning of his video as the teaching point.

    Plus, isn't it you that usually points out when others post a video as an example that what players do in practice isn't necessarily what they do in matchplay! :D
     
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  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It looks like what I'm hearing from Oscar; Maybe you have a different take on the msg.

    Yes, I've said often warmup is not what they do in matchplay, but practice may be different.
    That just happened to be the 1st vid I pulled up, and
    it showed the issues quite well imo. I pulled up Gasquet due to in my minds eye of the
    few times I've seen him play, I felt he used this
    aspect of the Bh technique.
    Do you see a problem with his Bh in that vid?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
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  21. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    Is Oscar's backhand video only to explain what to do on a 1HBH when jammed with a serve to the body, or a hard volley at your feet when you are near the service line?

    In that case, he probably has a point.

    Otherwise, use your feet to set get into the classic closed stance with weight transfer from the back to front foot to rip your 1HBH like Gasquet in the video posted by 5263, or this following video of Tommy Haas practicing moving his feet to hit great backhand after backhand:
    07 26 09 Tommy Haas practicing backhand at 2009 LA tennis Open with his coach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONWFjn7RNUk



    [Martina Hingis often let her great confidence in herself broach on arrogance. After a match, a tennis commentator asked her what was the secret to her backhand being so effective that day. "Which one?" she asked. "You know I have at least 8 backhands."
    We don't need 8 backhands - but variations on the backhand, just like the forehand, are necessary in match play when forced into an uncomfortable position where a textbook shot just can be executed.]
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
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  22. kopfan

    kopfan Rookie

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    This should hit like a moonball and create natural spin to get the ball into the deep base. Very defensive way of hitting but effective against power hitter to neutralize the fast heavy ball. If you are able to hit into the deep corner, the ball will cause attacking baseliner lots of problem. A good defense weapon to have. I use it when i am standing too close at the baseline while a fast ball come in deep. Nadal use it against big hitter as well. Very useful to turn defence into attacker.
     
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  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    #23
  24. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    All I see is forward and upward acceleration combined with recovering.

    -SF
     
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  25. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    Funny how he talks about one thing but demonstrates another.

    He talking about Guga is at least suspicious.
     
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  26. Migelowsky

    Migelowsky Rookie

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    He couldn´t have a better forward weight transfer.
    Look at his right foot stepping on the gas pedal.
    What makes him look going backwards is because his
    followthrough is complete and the racquet continues all
    the way back.
    [​IMG]
     
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  27. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    How can the weight transfer backwards when the the back foot actually comes up off the ground or up on the toe?
     
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  28. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Ah, sorry, I think the word I was looking for was "deliberate," not conscious.
    Imo, to better replicate what Oscar's trying to demonstrate, one must not think to linearly shift one's weight on the back foot, but to start resisting the arm and racquet from rotating the upper body right before contact. While I believe I understand what Wegner was trying to demonstrate, what he is saying and what he is showing in the video provided by the OP are two different things.
     
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  29. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    This is quite accurate. The left leg, in many instances, actually works in a "kick back" fashion (into a more closed position) to counter over rotation. It actually comes up off the ground, so we know definatively that the weight distribution at impact is off the front foot. Not transfering from front to back. Oscar can't even demonstrate his point.....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2012
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  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I can see that is you take on it, but to me, it is quite clear what he is saying
    along with his demo. He makes his point further with the demo of holding the
    racket by the end, then swinging with a lift and pull slightly back. It is also
    clear to me how to use that in a stroke technique.

    Everybody is not going to get it. That is not an insult, just like it is no insult to
    me that I don't get the comments by those who don't see this use of wt shift.
    Many have commented how they don't see how cracking a whip relates to strokes.
    We all perceive in our own fashion. Proofs in geometry are hard or impossible for
    some to see, but imo that does not make them incorrect.
     
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  31. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    It is perfectly clear what he is saying and demo'ing - he just then doesn't do it when he hits! :D

    The concept he is trying to get across may well be perfectly valid, but what demo's he doesn't do and what he does is probably the main teaching point that he is trying to get across in the first place.

    P.S. Don't take this as purely directed because it's Oscar - I would happily point it out if it were any coach!
     
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  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    What does "Off the front foot" mean to you?
     
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  33. maverick66

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    I agree with those that he is saying something just to be controversial. There is no way anyone is teaching players to fall back on their strokes and being successful at it. You would leave so many balls short and also when your weight is being pulled on way or another you lose balance which will result in inconsistent strokes.

    There are many different stances and strokes on tour but they all hit in balance most of the time. Oscar seems to take the 5% of caught off balance shots that guys hit when in trouble and make that his talking points.

    That kinda ignores 95% of what is actually happening out there. I dont know if he doesnt get it or is it trying to be different for marketing but I have feeling this thread is gonna be a lot of yes it does no it doesnt.
     
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  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Your comments are very fair if that is what you see.
    I can only guess that maybe he has adjusted to show it subtle due to the neg
    feedback of when he showed this with big exaggeration previously.
    What I noticed where that some of the feeds were way less than ideal...leading
    to some compensations imo.

    For better or worse, he doesn't go out there and shoot this thing 20 times to
    get it just so. I've been there on some of the shoots. They talk about what
    they will do, then go shoot the vid. What you get is much like if you were there
    live. Not sure that is the best in this case or most cases.
     
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  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't think it is a matter of shooting the video - what he is advising is wrong. If we took away the video and kept only his words, it would still be wrong.
     
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  36. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I see Re-chard and Guga stepping in on their front foot big time, rotating into contact but not letting the hips go fully open, then I see a bit of backward pull back on the follow-thru to counteract the rotation. I do not see them pulling back before contact or hitting while pulling back.
     
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  37. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    What I see initially is that guga and gasquet are transferring weight forward and you can see the weight go their front foot.. then they are kind of straightening up or halting that weight transfer maybe to maintain balance or something or maybe it is just sort of an illusion due to the angle of the torso and the outward pointing hip plus the rotation so it makes it seem like they could be pulling back? Idk. not sure.

    What is Oscar/MTM saying would be the purpose/benefit of pulling back?
     
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  38. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    I would think this can add RHS through added rot. acceleration, which you can then convert into more spin or more power, whichever applies. This can also maybe help those who are moving too far forward after contact.

    It's something many don't focus on, but it's definitely valid, a valuable tip, and probably helps people with specific problems. But to make it a fundamental element in the 1hbh might be going too far.
     
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  39. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    It's a great thing to try for sure, I'll be trying the things I took away from it next time I play. It's clear what he wants to convey, but I feel like many people unfamiliar with the nuances of a 1hbh and the sources of developing RHS will be confused.

    Personally, I found this video very helpful in how to be more balanced through the shot.
    MTM brings something to the table, that's for sure :wink:
     
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  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree.

    I think your point about balance is key.
     
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  41. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I have an idea.

    Why doesn't everyone post a video of their 1hbh and explain how they hit it so that we can see the results of your philosophy, and know that you are not just parroting crap you read somewhere else?

    J
     
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  42. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Even if I don't agree with many of his theories, I find Wegner's stuff intriguing. Seems to me he's exaggerating things he thinks he sees.

    Rather than stepping back, I think that more power is often generated by pushing off the front leg to transfer speed to the racket face. My own intuition on this is that by pushing off the front foot, what is really happening is that the admittedly slight hip rotation is being quickly stopped in order to allow the momentum to be transferred to the shoulder and the racket head.

    So if I were to put Oscar's teaching into my own words, it would be to step forward into the ball into the closed stance with the body's momentum going forward and then to press back with the front leg hard just prior to impact. This braking motion allows the hips to stop more rapidly in order to transfer pace the arm and racket head. In the fraction of a second prior to impact, more racket head speed is generated by stopping that lower body than by attempting to speed it up.

    Anyone else think this is what Oscar is really trying to say?
     
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  43. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    +1
    Yes, and very well phrased to boot! The last-minute resistance to further rotation transfers the momentum to arm and racquet, adding RHS. It may seem like you're moving back, but it's really more of a pushing motion as a result of which one straightens out/lifts up.
     
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  44. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Exactly I have noticed before that Oscar does exaggerate while trying to teach a technique. Sometimes teachers use mental images that are extreme or not necessarily exactly what really happens but it can still be very helpful in learning something new.
     
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  45. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    That backhand being hit in the first video is so retardedly crap it's almost not even worth talking about it. His whole 'falling back' thing is utter nonsense and you'd only see it on people who've (as someone said earlier) been jammed.
     
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  46. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    Ihbh

    I wouldn't say stay down either, but for a completely different reason than what Oscar is saying ... and that is so the hitting arm shoulder is far enough up and away from the ball so the rigid and straight arm unit can rotate out (supinate). I often tell 1HBH students who overly bend at the waist, or who lead with their elbow too much, to fall backwards on a number of feeds so they are able to hit "out" more and aren't forced to swing so much across their bodies early in the forward stroke.

    As for trying to get "lift" from a sudden shoulder rise, as Oscar seems to be advocating, I would advise against thinking that way. I think instability is a primary issue with most players in the process of developing a 1HBH, and the control provided by a steady hitting shoulder is much more important to the evolution of the stroke than any ("mythical") lift or power that might be gained.

    MG
     
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  47. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    the one shot in my game that lacks consistency is the one-handed topspin bh. haven´t used it much for a number of years due to injury and mobility reasons.
    Oscars tip abot getting the weight on the back foot helped me. i now realize it is probably because it helped me to find better balance and therefore being able to use more of my upper body
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
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  48. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    yes, well said.
    Not sure were the detractors come up with things like "falling" back and "sudden"
    shoulder movement. I went back and watched the whole vid again and didn't see
    those words or even type comments from Oscar.
    Imo this vid is showing how to do on the Bh, what we do on the Fh, where we
    put more wt on the rt foot, then lift and push back to balance between the feet.
    It facilitates controllable power, recovery and balance for those who can get the
    concept.
     
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  49. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    i felt like i had to leave a comment, because i saw that very video and it helped me.give credit where it´s due
    what you want to do with something like that, is try it out yourself on the court and test it.
    if it doesn´t help, forget it.
    if it helps, it´s interesting to figure out why it helped. because understanding why something works, helps you to understand the strengths and weaknesses in your game better
    what doesn´t help is critizising something without testing it.
    with the words ´mtm´and ´oscar wegner´ in the title, you can be sure of two things.
    one, it will be critizised by some just because it is Wegner
    two, sooner or later the thread will be deleted:)
     
    #49
  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No, he is just plain wrong as usual.

    He is looking for anything to show that he has an original idea, when he hasn't.

    We are the ones who think maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt, and start attributing our ideas to him. In this video, he did not say that it was a special case when you are being jammed, he did not say that it was an exaggeration to make a point, and he could not bring himself to follow his own advice as it is so wrong.
     
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