MTM by Oscar Wegner-1HBH

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ED7, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    The part of the video that makes sense is when he says this technique is useful when the ball is on top of you and you need more space.

    On many/most balls this won't be necessary is you've prepared early. But we all know Oscar doesn't believe in early preparation.

    He likes to run his mouth about how he taught Guga the one-handed backhand. From what I've seen from other sources, Larry Passos was Guga's personal coach, who taught him the one hander. Oscar probably taught clinics where Guga was there. As usual, Oscar is exaggerating his connection to a real player, and taking credit for someone else's hard work.
     
    #51
  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    arche3: I saw your post before it was deleted. It is good to know that you now agree with me.
     
    #52
  3. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    In half of his videos he has someone else standing there telling him how great and innovative his techniques are. It's more infomercial than real tennis instruction.
     
    #53
  4. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Biomechanically speaking, I believe this is a loading mechanism that everyone probably exploits instinctively, and Oscar simply was observant enough to notice this happening. The pushing up or back off the front foot that precedes or coincides with the forward swing will activate the stretch-contraction reflex in the shoulder, providing explosive power for the forward swing. This won't happen if there is no braking effect and the body just keeps moving forward through the stroke. I myself hit with a two-hander, but I realized I was doing something similar for the slice backhand and sometimes for volleys. J-Mac's volleys where he pushes up at contact (in a not so text-book way) may be exploiting a similar mechanism... isn't tennis wonderful! :)
     
    #54
  5. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    #55
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Guga learnt from the right person, otherwise he would be leaning back on his backhand and hitting weak shots, and we would have never heard of him.
     
    #56
  7. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    was it deleted because he agreed with you???:-?
     
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  8. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    no bhupaes, biomechanically Oscars approach is so fundamentally off the mark it'll waste too much useless typing to address thoroughly.

    However in short, the push off from the front leg is not a requirement for ssc of the shoulder. ssc of shoulder can be activated by a number of ways even with the front leg fully extended and supporting the whole body weight. the main problem with not having the weight on the front foot is there is no stopping the torso rotation near the contact point causing the opening up the shoulder and over rotating.

    I have no motive to discredit Oscar, really I don't care, but the way mtmers are willing to have their own eyes and minds prejudiced by something other than quality tennis instruction is pretty disappointing to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
    #58
  9. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    There's a good video interview with Larri Passos, on tennisplayer.net where he talks about teaching Guga the one-hander.
     
    #59
  10. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Anyone?

    Bueller?

    J
     
    #60
  11. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    I have a couple backhands in this vid (also posted elsewhere, I apologize).
    I remember I was focusing on lifting upward/ (as opposed to pulling back) as I was swinging forward. This is the result.
    http://youtu.be/QzqP71zyvWU
     
    #61
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Very sad. They come up with weird explanations trying to see whether even a thousandth of what he said can be remotely correct. They make up explanations on his behalf because they just cannot face up to the facts.
     
    #62
  13. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I understand that you have to moderate a bit against the wall, but it looks to me as if you have more natural snap in your topspin backhand than your forehand.

    So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

    Come on people, don't be scared.

    Show me the money!

    J
     
    #63
  14. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    The push off the front foot definitely enhances the explosive effect - and I mean the push off in the way Guga and Gasquet do it. I agree that hip and upper body rotation are the primary movements in the 1HBH. IMO, the braking effect due to the "push back" enhances the explosiveness. It doesn't mean that the player will actually move backwards, especially if the player has to run forwards to execute the backhand. Of course, if one is illustrating the mechanism by hitting hand fed balls from a fixed spot, there may be a noticeable tendency to move back.

    Sure, you are entitled to your views, and as gentlemen, we can agree to disagree. :) Personally, I have benefited a lot from Oscar's teachings. I find his insights absolutely fascinating, since it opens up a way of looking at the game that is unique and rewarding.
     
    #64
  15. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Marketing of MTM

    It should be a separate thread.
    Next stage would be discuss forehand and serve by MTM.
    Next we will have a claim about half million clicks
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
    #65
  16. JW10S

    JW10S Hall of Fame

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    You too have fallen for the MTM propoganda. According to them it's either MTM or it's traditional. That's wrong. There is such thing as modern instruction that uses none of MTM's tenets.

    Just saw this, and the original vid is just too silly to even comment on...
     
    #66
  17. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Jo11y, with all due respect, i'm not a proponent of mtm :) i believe that it is an occasionally valuable resource for specfic groups of tennis players and only in very specific cases. I learned my bh with more traditional concepts.
     
    #67
  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Is that the one where he states how good Guga was when he first met him at
    age 14 and convinced the parents he could make a living playing tennis?
     
    #68
  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Jolly has not fallen for anything. He is a high-level player who likes to pull everyone's legs.
     
    #69
  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes it's wrong and We don't say it. If you want to speak for MTM, it would help
    to get it right.
    Probably better to stick to what you know.
     
    #70
  21. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    I'm laughing my ass off watching Oscar demonstrate. As a 1.0 I don't feel I'm qualified to comment but from my lowly position, I find his strokes hilarious. Of course, much worthier tennis players will come along to comment. So, as a right hander, the backhand is when you hit the ball on your left side? After 30 years I still get the two strokes confused.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
    #71
  22. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I wouldn't say that.

    I am not particularly gung-ho on anybody's instruction. I do however try to see things from other points of view.

    My goal is to look and listen with an open mind, and see if anything makes sense, or I like anything.

    I have found that it is difficult to learn if all you do is try to convince people that you are right.

    J
     
    #72
  23. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ok, so you are likely in the same boat as I.

    I have run into a handful of people who could seriously benefit from listening to what Wegner preaches, but for the most part think it would be counter productive to most who are looking to progress to something more than intermediate recreational level.

    J
     
    #73
  24. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    ;)

    J
     
    #74
  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That may be true for some of his other tips, but this backhand video is wrong for every level.
     
    #75
  26. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Show me the money!

    J
     
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  27. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Ha! yes. The TTW mods knew that if it were made public there would be mass hysteria. In my moment of weakness I posted what should be never said...
     
    #77
  28. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    While we understand what you are saying here, this part is not technically correct.
    No ssc action would be contributing to power while pulling back on a 1hbh. ssc is triggered by a stretch in one opposite direction and then a release in the opposite direction.
     
    #78
  29. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    You are right about that - I used the incorrect technical term to describe what's going on (and was waiting for someone to point it out after posting, ha ha). I understand now (after some shadow 1hbh swings) the feeling of how this push contributes to power - mainly momentum transfer that enhances the contraction part, I am guessing.
     
    #79
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Oscar says the same thing on his website:

    After you have this movement well grooved in, get someone to toss gentle balls to your backhand. Lift the ball well over the net and finish all the way, perhaps exaggerating the lift, and getting your balance by pulling away from the ball and up. Especially if you are too close to the ball, pulling back will give you plenty of room to swing, with your arm extending towards the target and then across towards the right.

    This type movement combination has been shunned by conventional tennis teaching, that tells you to step forward into the hit and stay down. This, unfortunately, destroys the natural acceleration of the arm. Try it both ways, and you will notice the difference.



    I have a feeling this is again one of those legacy items from the transition period. In the wood era, it was necessary to stay down and step into the ball to get any meaningful power. Today, rackets are more powerful, and also, as Federer discovered against Nadal, high-bouncing slow balls are common to the backhand even on grass and hard courts. So, while there is a classic video of Federer with his back foot almost kneeling on the ground, he also hits backhands in a more upright position. So it is no longer necessary to adhere to the stay down advice very strictly. He could have just said that, instead of saying the other things like going backward. He confuses the finish which will result in the body rising with a backward movement of the body during the hit, similar to the confusion on the forehand about pulling away before impact instead of the reality of finishing the swing after hitting solidly through the ball.
     
    #80
  31. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

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    Oh, so this is what that email is about lol.

    So the idea is to hit a tennis ball forward faster/harder/heavier/whatever by moving backwards? I don't claim to be able to hit a ball with anything to be confused with competency... but... huh? Am I missing something?

    i'm taking my technically perfect 2hbh and hiding under the bed until this blows over.
     
    #81
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    He's not the one confused on this.
    At least you see the result of the pull up and back.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
    #82
  33. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    That's what she said.

    J
     
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  34. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

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    i like my tea how i like my women... tied to the bed with a feather boa.
     
    #84
  35. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    You called it sureshs :)

    Sorry, I must be missing something here, being new and all -- why are TT admins deleting posts/threads related to MTM/Wegner? Is it purely based on marketing, the fact that it's a form of "product review" on a forum?
     
    #85
  36. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    And that was only my 2nd best line of the night...

    J
     
    #86
  37. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    most of it is probably based on the fact that the arguments tend to become heated and personal. what sureshs likes to call fun, i guess

    why mtm, why wegner? the controversy about Oscar Wegner and his teaching goes on for a long time now, way before i joined tt
    some of what he teaches is different from mainstream, the video about the
    1HBH being proof of that i would say
    also, he seems to be quite confident about what he contributed to modern tennis teaching, being a pioneer of teaching how the pros play,etc.
    that doesn´t sit well with some posters
     
    #87
  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't know. I think it has more to do with the tone or nature of some of the threads or posts.
     
    #88
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, it does go back a ways. I think some of it lingers mostly from 2 former posters.
    One was a Braden know all, who tried to crush anyone who disagreed, and
    the other would write long pages on details of Oscar's exploits. It may go back
    even further, but those guys seemed to draw a big line in the sand on the topics.
    I came along as those two battled and then went away. I just like to see MTM
    technique represented as one of the approaches to learning and mastering the
    game. Some will really have exciting growth and improvement with it. Some
    never get the simple, but subtle nuances of it and that is fine, but not a good
    reason to try and block others who may really benefit.

    There are many like Ash, who do get most of what MTM shares, but don't see
    it as the best way to get the info across. I respect that. I don't get all that
    MTM states either, but have learned thru experience that often I will get it later,
    in the right setting. I initially thought the idea of "waiting" was as silly as
    most of the anti Oscar crowd here, but reserved my final judgement due to the
    quality of the other things expressed. Then one Sat. morning I found myself in
    a doubles match against 2 really outstanding servers that were killing us with
    their pace. After a couple of desperate games facing their pace, the silly idea
    of waiting came to mind. What a great time to try it with nothing to lose, right?
    Getting smoked anyway, lol.

    Short story is I tried to wait by believing there was more time and that the pace
    was causing me to OVER react. I relaxed and quit rushing, but still got after
    the ball. It worked for me so I shared it with my partner, who had noticed how
    my rtns had picked up. He did better as well and we found a way to come back
    and win that match due to this silly tip that I had thought was ridiculous.
    So my intention is that these tips should be available here on this tips forum
    for anyone that might be helped. They are the best imo, but clearly not for
    everyone.
     
    #89
  40. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    5263, sounds more like a story of a spiritual leader to me than a teacher who really knows his skill. too much faith is required for promise of something so grand, play like pros. and when so many reasonably sounding people point out a detrimental flaw in the method as exhibited in this thread, there appears no attempt to make any sense and question the validity of his claim. instead you guys are busy defending Oscar. it's this kinda culture that is hurting mtm not a few people trying to take down mtm. if Oscar comes out and explain his stuff with an open mind that what he is saying could be wrong based on clear reasoning, he will earn my respect but as of now mtm by Oscar is not a serious method to master tennis skill, esp 1hbh.
     
    #90
  41. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    when I first encountered Oscar and his work I was impressed by unconventional but many insightful points he makes. he is unusual and he has very sharp eyes and minds. but he has flaws in reasoning ability and some kind of aggrandized self image that defies questioning. I'm sure there can be many capable instructors like you who got inspiration from him but when a teacher loses the ability to examine his beliefs and correct himself, the students should know what to take and what not to take because that teacher is done for good. and being defensive and assuming all the critiques are the enemies will hasten that demise. so it's up to you guys.
     
    #91
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Those religious references are out of line and uncalled for...especially from you,
    the pot calling the kettle, lol. Your posts are the ones that seem more
    spiritual in nature and all these reasonable folks are trying to tell you that your
    ideas about using the wrist are way off. You don't listen, because of your positive
    experience though. I don't listen to these folks either because I have experienced
    the benefits of the modern lessons. Those folks don't sound so reasonable when you
    know different with them constantly contradicting themselves and each other,
    showing a limited understanding on the topics. I have been where they are and
    moved past that. Why would I go back from the best tennis I've experienced?

    I'm not saying anything about faith anyway...We are talking about having an open
    mind. Sort of a sad statement about your religion if tennis tips and a open mind
    make you think of your faith imo.

    Hopefully your are smart enough to realize about the haters, that it is a catch 22.
    If they knew it and understood it, they say there is nothing new, but...
    If it's new & different where they don't understand it, they reject it like the plague.
    Can't help those with that type mindset can you?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012
    #92
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    #93
  44. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    5263, you know nobody that plays E fh that can generate a lot of pace and spin, do you? but in pro there are. quite a number of them. they are how I model my fh. now if you say there is not much difference b/w these modern E and your modern SW fh, or cannot see the difference, you won't be able to understand.
     
    #94
  45. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    you are right, I have no idea what you are talking about.
    I can only guess that you are laboring under more misinformation,
    that the modern Fh has a certain grip and does not include Eastern??:???:
    This is a good example of why folks should post on the subjects they know and
    not state the case for others.
     
    #95
  46. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    boram, don't allow the thread to be diverted away from the bad backhand advice in the video to some argument about your forehand. It is a diversionary tactic.
     
    #96
  47. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Hey boramiNYC, I am not an instructor! I'm just another Silicon Valley drone, trying to find on the tennis court the part that seems to be missing from the rest of my life! :) I prefer to stay in the technical realm, and apply whatever I learn to my game, be it from Oscar or someone else.
     
    #97
  48. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    one of these days i´ll start a thread on ´waiting´ i´ll make sure not to mention certain keywords like mtm so we can discuss it more calmly:)
    watching some of the best players in the world in my agegroup did it for me, seeing how unrushed they play. i´ve since been able to incorporate some of this in my own game, with extraordinary results against players half my age. a few months ago i felt overwhelmed with their pace, lately i seem to thrive on it.
    i have a feeling that modern footwork and open stances that i´ve adopted play a part, but don´t have all the answers yet.
     
    #98
  49. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    That sounds very interesting and I look forward to it. I'd like to learn more and
    here of your experiences on this. Some players seem to have so much more time
    to play the ball.
     
    #99
  50. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    I could have sworn I read you teaching in some previous thread but mistaken. you seem to have unusually well organized thought process on techniques to be just doing it for fun. I too am a student of the game and bettering myself is one of the things I enjoy most. I also try to have an open mind and I don't care where an idea comes from. but not rejecting unfounded idea is not same as having an open mind.
     

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