MTO should have some penalty

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by pinky42, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. pinky42

    pinky42 Rookie

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    I think MTO should be allowed but you should suffer some penalty for taking one. Maybe a loss of a game for every few minutes of treatment. It would be like boxing where you can take a knee if you need to gather yourself but you lose the round 8-10.
     
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  2. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    I like the idea. A point penalty for every few minutes is fair. That way you can minimize the chances of MTOs being used for gamesmanship.
     
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  3. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The MTO is probably there for the spectators so they're not robbed of a match, but a one point penalty per three minutes or some such is a reasonable payment for some work being done and a sufficient deterrent for the 'cheaters'..
     
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  4. North

    North Professional

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    I think the only penalty should be that you forfeit a game if you take the MTO on your opponent's serve.
     
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  5. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Well, fitness plays a big part in winning a tennis match, so if you really have an injury, it is just bad luck and you pay the price for it. This is a good compromise to prevent misuse of the MTO. The exact amount of points/games you forgo can be suitably adjusted based on the time taken, it need not be as drastic as forfeiting a game for even a minor timeout.
     
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  6. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    They should make it so you can't can't call for one if either player is within 2 games of winning the set. If you must do so then you forfeit the next game - unless it's an obvious acute injury like a rolled ankle. For everything else (blisters, sore back, thigh strain, mysterious rib ailment that no-one understands) it applies.

    It seems like a practical solution in some ways and isn't overly harsh imo.
     
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  7. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    It's hard to make a rule that seems objective, and then put subjectivity in it, such as "unless it's an obvious acute injury like a rolled ankle"'. You still make it the trainers call what's acute, and then it's hard still to determine if its a fake.
     
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  8. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I still suggest:

    Mto can be taken only at 2 times:

    1. During a set break;
    2. Or before/during your own serve

    If something happens before/during your opponents serve, you can forfeit points/game to get to your serve or the set break.

    Something like this, you gotta make it the same for legit and illegit ones. Can't put any judgement or subjectivity in it, or it doesn't work.
     
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  9. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Yes, absolutely.
     
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  10. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Finally a thread on this.
     
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  11. *Sparkle*

    *Sparkle* Professional

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    It would raise the danger of a player who might be able to be patched up enough to see out the next few games to win the match, would instead retire as the penalty is likely to take them to an extra set, or require a break of serve.

    The subject does need to be reviewed, but the purpose of the MTO is to allow the game to continue so any adjustments need to be in the context of that.
     
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  12. Magnus

    Magnus Legend

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    Lol. Trainers SHOULD NOT be allowed period. If you get injured to a point where you can't go on, retire. Else, keep playing. People like Nadal set the standards for dirty use of MTOs and now everyone does it. Enough with cheating!!! MTOs are used as bonus!
     
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  13. tennissportsrog

    tennissportsrog Rookie

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    And, Nadal's two-year-ranking.
     
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  14. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    On a list with potential unorthodox solutions for this problem, I would actually rate this option very highly.

    Of course, what woodrow1029 suggests, is much more practical and probable to happen.


    Why? Do injuries occur only at the end of the set?

    And, in the OP suggestion, it is said, that the injured player forfait a game for every few minutes. A game, not only HIS service games.

    It is not specified in the OP, but, let's (for the sake of the argument) say, that it is 5 minutes for a game.

    In a scenario, where the score is 4-4 (i.e.a scenario, wich is almost the worst possible, given the suggestion), the injured player will have 5+break between games+5+break between the sets, to sort out his problem, which is a reasonable time, should the player continue play, due to the nature of his injury (i.e. treatable in the given context).

    Of course, there is always a possibility, that the player injures himself during a deciding last game in the last set(and he is trailing, say, at 5-6), but, it can always be included, that every player is entitled to have one "free" MTO on his own service game, to prevent such occurence.
     
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  15. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    yes. If you're not fit enough you don't deserve to win. I can see if a player twists their ankle or is obviously injured during play. But sometimes there is no indication whatsoever that a player is injured and they're just using the MTO as gamesmanship (I won't mention any names here). It's legal but that doesn't make it right.
     
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  16. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    i like the idea ! :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Hi Sloane Stephens :)
     
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  18. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    This is a good idea. Why should the opposing player not gain a benefit the injured player has? Even if the injury was not due to lack of fitness but rather an accident, a letcord is accidental too, and you lose a point there.
     
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  19. slal1984

    slal1984 Rookie

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    And while the injured player is being tended to, the opponent who is all warmed up has to sit and will/may loose all their momentum, get cold, loose their focus..etc. Kinda like why sometimes NBA coaches take timeouts...How is this fair?
     
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  20. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    Simply give the players two 3 minute timeouts per match, to be used as they want....or one 3 and one 10 minute. If you can't get back on the court after 10 minutes due to an injury, you're done anyway.


    That stops all the fake injury timeouts. You have the option of using your timeouts to take momentum away from your opponent, or hold them in reserve for an actual injury.
     
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  21. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Huh? How does that stop faking? The option of using your timeouts to take away momentum is what we want stopped, not encouraged.
     
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  22. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Then maybe while the player is getting the MTO the opponent gets to confer with his team. That would put an end to gamesmanship because it would benefit the opponent.
     
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  23. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    I think this is a fair solution.

    It is becoming far too common in todays game for players to take MTO's before their opponents serve (which I thought the chair was not supposed to allow anyways).
     
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  24. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    yes you're right and if a player is injured on court to the point that they can't play that game then they forfeit the game. Then they can have their MTO, on their own serve.
     
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  25. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    That is not correct.
     
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  26. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Here is the ATP rule for MTO:
    (not sure if majors have different rules)

    3) Medical Time-Out
    A medical time-out is allowed by the supervisor or chair umpire when the physiotherapist
    has evaluated the player and has determined that additional time for
    medical treatment is required. The medical time-out takes place during a change
    over or set break, unless the physiotherapist determines that the player has developed
    an acute medical condition that requires immediate medical treatment.
    The medical time-out begins when the physiotherapist is ready to start treatment.
    At the discretion of the physiotherapist, treatment during a medical time-out may
    take place off-court, and may proceed in conjunction with the tournament Doctor.*
    The medical time-out is limited to three (3) minutes of treatment. However, at professional
    events with prize money of $35,000 or less, the supervisor may extend
    the time allowed for treatment if necessary.
    A player is allowed one (1) medical time-out for each distinct treatable medical
    condition. All clinical manifestations of heat illness shall be considered as one (1)
    treatable medical condition. All treatable musculoskeletal injuries that manifest as
    part of a kinetic chain continuum shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical
    condition.
    A total of two (2) consecutive medical time-outs may be allowed by the supervisor
    or chair umpire for the special circumstance in which the physiotherapist
    determines that the player has developed at least two (2) distinct acute and treatable
    medical conditions. This may include: a medical illness in conjunction with a
    musculoskeletal injury; two or more acute and distinct musculoskeletal injuries.
    In such cases, the physiotherapist will perform a medical evaluation for the two
    or more treatable medical conditions during a single evaluation, and may then
    determine that two consecutive medical time-outs are required.
    4) Muscle Cramping
    A player may receive treatment for muscle cramping only during the time allotted
    for changeovers and/or set breaks. Players may not receive a medical time-out
    for muscle cramping. In cases where there is doubt about whether the player
    suffers from an acute medical condition, non-acute medical condition inclusive of
    muscle cramping, or non-treatable medical condition, the decision of the Physiotherapist,
    in conjunction with the tournament doctor, if appropriate, is fi nal. There
    may be a total of two (2) full change of ends treatments for muscle cramping in a
    match, not necessarily consecutive.
    Note: A player who has stopped play by claiming an acute medical condition, but
    is determined by the Physiotherapist and/or tournament doctor to have muscle
    cramping, shall be instructed by the Chair Umpire to resume play immediately.
    If the player cannot continue playing due to severe muscle cramping, as determined
    by the Physiotherapist and/or tournament doctor, he may forfeit the
    point(s)/game(s) needed to get to a change of end or set-break in order to receive
    treatment.
    If it is determined by the Chair Umpire or Supervisor that gamesmanship was
    involved, then a Code Violation for Unsportsmanlike Conduct could be issued.
    5) Medical Treatment
    A player may receive on-court medical treatment and/or supplies from the Physiotherapist
    and/or tournament Doctor during any changeover or set break. As a
    guideline, such medical treatment should be limited to two (2) changeovers/set
    breaks for each treatable medical condition, before or after a medical time-out,
    and need not be consecutive. Players may not receive medical treatment for nontreatable
    medical conditions.
    6) Penalty
    After completion of a medical time-out or medical treatment, any delay in resumption
    of play shall be penalized by Code Violations for Delay of Game.
    Any player abuse of this medical rule will be subject to penalty in accordance with
    the Unsportsmanlike Conduct section of the Code of Conduct.
    7) Bleeding
    If a player is bleeding, the chair umpire must stop play as soon as possible, and
    the physiotherapist should be called to the court for evaluation and treatment.
    The physiotherapist, in conjunction with the tournament Doctor if appropriate, will
    evaluate the source of the bleeding, and will request a medical time-out for treatment
    if necessary.
    If requested by the physiotherapist and/or tournament Doctor, the supervisor or
    chair umpire may allow up to a total of fi ve (5) minutes to assure control of the
    bleeding.

    But I seem to recall Azarenka was off court for close to 10 minutes wasn't she? It should have been 6 minutes max.
     
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  27. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    It stops the "faking" completely, because now, you have your time outs..you use them as you see fit or need to. If you get injured after trying to game your opponent with a legal time out, that was your blunder on your part.

    The fact is, that's what MTO's are used for anyway. You are not going to be able to stop people "faking" injuries as long as they can use it to stop the match for a momentum shift.

    So, either give alotted timeouts for any reason, or say if you get injured and can't play, you lose. That's how you stop faking injuries.

    You and I hate the gamey aspect of injury timeouts, but if everyone has the same number of timeouts and using them is an accepted tactic, then the controversy ends.
     
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  28. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    The whole rule is a joke because how can someone prove they strained their back or twisted their knee as opposed to faking it?

    Again, take the judgement out of it. You either get timeouts for whatever reason the player wants to use them, or make it that any player who can't be ready to play in 3 minutes loses the match.
     
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  29. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I have explained this several times already, but here we go again (the short version).

    6 minutes max for treatment yes. But, there is diagnosis/evaluation time, which is limited only to "reasonable time". Plus there is the time to walk off court, and the time to get dressed again after the treatment. Therefore, people should stop saying that the back to back MTO's should be limited to 6 minutes.

    Yes the slams have slightly different rules, and I posted the relevant rules for the slams at least 2 times in other threads.

    The chair umpire is not a doctor. As such, if the player says he needs the trainer and can't wait until the next changeover, or before their own serve, etc., it's not the chair umpire's call. It's the trainer's call whether or not the player can receive treatment.

    Additionally, in Australia, the rule is that the doctor must also be present. You had a trainer and a doctor saying that Azarenka had 2 legitimate treatable conditions. Now whether Azarenka was faking them, that's another issue, but as was just said, it's hard to tell even for a doctor or trainer with the tools they have in that situation to determine whether or not she is faking.

    The only time basically a chair umpire can deny a trainer coming on court is if a player flat out says they are cramping, as there is no medical timeout for cramping.
     
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  30. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    So many threads about MTO's, but this is the solution. This post should be stickied and made into the only thread on the subject. Too many as it is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
    #30
  31. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Lot's of good ideas here. Maybe max 2 timeouts for 3 minutes to use however the player wants. TV advertising would like it.

    Or, a point penalty could be a good idea too.

    Also, as someone mentioned, allowing the opponent to receive coaching advice while the player received MTO has merit.

    But, yes, something needs to be done to curb the abuse. I like a point penalty. Maybe point penalty on the 1st MTO and point penalty and coaching for opponent on the 2nd MTO.
     
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  32. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    I like this idea. With the addition that after the player has used their allotted timeouts, they have to forfeit 1 game (the one being played if they are in a game, or the next one, if between games) if they still need to call an MTO.

    Edit: I think this is necessary because of the bad publicity tennis would get if a player is not allowed an MTO after the allotted timeouts, and a player hurts themselves even more while playing through an injury. I mean, just consider how Nadal fans would react if he injured himself because he was unable to take an MTO after using his allotted TOs and injures himself and has to sit out 6 months. While their point may be invalid (Nadal should have forfeited if he couldn't play anymore, or shouldn't have used the TOs earlier) it would still hurt the sport's publicity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
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  33. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Any idea which involves "a player must retire or continue without treatment" or some variation of that would be bad for the sport's publicity.

    I'm not saying my idea is the best, because I am sure that there is someone out there who has good ideas also, but MTO's should be allowed, and if they are going to limit them, it should be a simple limitation. I think mine emphasizes the need to take it on the set break or their own serve only, and if they need it at their opponent's serve, they can forfeit either points or 1 game to get to their own serve.

    I don't think someone should be penalized for taking it before their own serve or at a set break.

    This is similar to the current cramping rule already in place. Changeover treatment for cramping only at a changeover/set break. If they cramp during a game, they can forfeit points or games to get to the changeover/setbreak.

    With my suggestion, it is simple, and it is in line similar to something that is already in place.
     
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  34. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    The thing is, the majority of tennis matches don't have injuries of any sort or MTOs for that matter. Therefore allotting specified timeouts will actually result in more gamesmanship since players will use them for that for the most part. And trust me when that strategy is used against your favourite player on the verge of closing it out, you will blow up.
     
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  35. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    Not if it's available for your favorite player to use when he's in the same situation for the next match, right?

    It wouldn't be "gamesmanship", it would be a legal tactic that is used in many other sports..."icing" the kicker in American football, timeouts in hockey to reorganize your players, etc.

    Gamesmanship is bending the rules or acting like a jerk to try to throw your opponents off.

    A timeout is a timeout, a benefit given to all the players in every match...it's a few minutes.
     
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  36. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    I think it's MUCH worse publicity when Nadal and Azarenka use fake injuries to throw off their opponents.

    If he's that prone to REAL injuries, he would just NEVER use his allotted timeouts tactically.
     
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  37. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Come on dman, you can't really feel that way, can you? You think it would be worse publicity for a player to use suspect injuries than a player having to retire because no trainers are allowed when there is a legitimate injury? I certainly hope that is not your logic.

    Besides, I missed where there is any proof of fake injuries.
     
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  38. dman72

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    It's the mysterious timing that raises the question.


    Who said anything about no trainers? I simply think that a player whose momentum is thrown off by an apparent "injury" to another player should have the right to in turn use a timeout at his/her time of choosing later in the match without having to feign some injury of their own.
     
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  39. single_handed_champion

    single_handed_champion Professional

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    I think a reasonable compromise, in addition to what Woodrow proposes, is to allow the opponent to have coaching when someone takes an MTO. Like it or not, an MTO will throw off the opponent whether or not legitimate, so this will help. There is coaching allowed if they go off court (rain breaks) so why not this?

    Giving the opponent a reasonable tactical advantage (like coaching) will serve as stronger deterrent than just waiting till one's serve. If someone is bent on using the MTO as a dirty tactic, waiting 1 more game is not a big deal. Also, I am not sure the serve thing is very relevant on the WTA where many players don't even count on holding serve.

    Also limit the time. As it is, nothing can be done in 5 min (treat a locked rib in 3 min :roll: give me a break), so why not make it brief?

    No back-to-back MTOs. If you want one, give up a game or a point a minute. Bad luck if it is legitimate. I find it hard to believe that top-class athletes would be playing with (or have them crop up during a match) multiple conditions when they are so fit and well-conditioned and travel with trainers and physios and what not.
     
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  40. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    That is already in the rules for the WTA Tour. I don't think I see the ATP or ITF going with it though. Ya never know however.
     
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  41. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I saw a player at a women's challenger in Salt Lake City (about 10 years ago) come down from an overhead and roll her ankle. When she fell down, she badly injured her wrist. Even though it happened at the same time, it's still considered 2 injuries.
     
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  42. single_handed_champion

    single_handed_champion Professional

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    At the Slams too. Don't need regular coaching during sets, only MTOs.

    As for the nest point you make, I think you should chalk such freak occurrences (multiple injuries) to bad luck. Very rare, and if it is so bad, I am sure the player would either not stand a chance afterwards (again, how much can a few minutes with a trainer help?) or not care about losing a game or so if they feel they need the assistance badly.
     
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  43. mental midget

    mental midget Professional

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    my guess is there are more fake injuries than real injuries because the system accommodates it. i like the 1 3- minute time out, and it costs a game. use it whenever. imo if your body falls apart the only reason you're getting another chance is for the fans' benefit, it certainly isn't fair to the other player.
     
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