My Obligatory Oscar Wegner Review...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by majordude, Nov 1, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. majordude

    majordude Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    104
    I started a thread here and some of the participants received quite a bit of criticism for even bringing up his name of for suggesting his products.

    He had a sale on eight of his DVDs so I decided to give them a go to check him out for myself.

    First off, I'm not a pro, will never be a pro and have no desire to be a pro. I'm 45 and want a hobby and desire exercise. I used to play recreational tennis back in my late teens so I have an innate feel for the game (I'm not learning it from scratch).

    My initial impression of the product is that the quality of the videos are very low. Many of the DVDs seem to be compilations of a show he used to have on the Tennis channel back in the late 80s or early 90s or something and they appear to be recordings of recordings and then digitally converted to DVDs. The audio sucks. The video sucks. They discs don't even play on my Mac or PC, they will only play on my PS3 (and it doesn't even appear to be Blue Ray discs so I don't know what the deal is)!

    Regarding his teachings, I'm somewhat shocked in that what feels natural to me is what he appears to teach. Push the ball don't whack the ball, natural stances, runs instead of shuffles...

    Let me digress a bit... when I was younger I took guitar lessons. For two years I practiced scales, chords, strings, grips, how to hold the guitar, how to tune it, how to do harmonics... everything but play the guitar what was what I wanted to do!

    Then a few years ago I bought one of those cheap assed Estaban guitars from QVC and it came with 10 DVDs. It cost me $200. My old Yamaha guitar cost $600 in 1980.

    I'm sure that if this was a guitar forum people would be razzing me saying Estaban is a phoney, a sell out, not a real musician but a hack. Well, he had me playing music (real songs) within an hour.

    That was my goal all along. Not to be the next Eddie Van Halen, but to enjoy the guitar.

    My wife, who has never played tennis, was hitting balls somewhat accurately over the net, both forehand and backhand, after one viewing of Oscar's Tennis 101.

    For that it is a 9/10.

    It's like Rosetta Stone for tennis. I tried to learn Spanish, 30 words at a time, for YEARS. I paid college professors a lot of money to try to learn Spanish with memory lessons and drills. For a fraction of the price and within a few hours you can have basic conversations in Spanish after using Rosetta Stone.

    People will say that you can't have advanced conversations nor is my pronunciation perfect... but that isn't important to me or to most people. It's about communication not perfection. You've probably had funny conversations with foreigners that require a lot of hand signals and guessing. It's about communication, not perfection.

    That's my impression of the anger directed to Wegner. He's teaching thousands of people to play a good game but not a great game and that irritates some. I guess I can undertstand that but I'd rather play music and ask for a beer in Spanish rather than becoming an expert in either.

    9/10.
     
    #1
  2. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Ojai, CA
    I appreciate your honesty. I am sure Oscar will be flattered by your comments which are pretty interesting. I am not surprised, of course, especially by our wife's experience after watching the tennis 101, which should be handed out with every racket sold in the USA in my opinion and tennis would have a million new players forever. When I suggested you buy them, I knew the review could be bad given your sharing your experience so openly. I do think you hit the nail on the head that Oscar's natural teachings work in a very unorthodox way that is not easily understood. As a beginner, I knew you would find them effective.

    The real magic is that if you go to tennis websites like www.tennisinthezone.com or www.noworriestennis.com you will find that these are 6.0 players who credit their level to Oscar. Akiva Lacterman thought he had topped out at 5.0 and after adopting MTM, was rated a 6.0 player. Mark Carruthers noworriestennis.com might be the funniest tennis website on the internet and he just made the finals of the Singapore Open which is a pro tournament. So it works for beginners as well as advanced, though for advanced, it helps by cleaning up misconceptions. Oscar's "secret" that he seems to have might be the very Power of Simplicity and the power of tennis by feel. Okham's Razor tells us that given two competing explanations, the simplest one is usually the correct one. This rule was used by Einstein as well as adopted by the scientific community as a whole.

    Oscar's first book in 1989 was panned by Tennis Magazine and he was laughed at. Players like Vince Spadea, #18 in the world, were part of the unknown legions started by Oscar in tennis, Vince actually being coached by Oscar as an overweight six year old as were his two sisters started in tennis and all three became USTA champions. Oscar later coached Vince Spadea Jr when he was in high school as the father, a piano teacher, knew where his bread was buttered and because of MTM, the father was able to coach his son until Vince Jr. parted ways at age 26. But even Vince Spadea Jr said in 2007 that the tennis world was surprised Oscar's book so sold so well, given the USA coaches such as Rick Macci felt Oscar's theories had no merit. Oscar's second book, despite being promoted by Bud Collins who put his picture on the cover and wrote the foreword, has to this day been ignored by mainstream tennis media and you can't find a mainstream review of it. Oscar's 2006 "Play Better Tennis in 2 Hours," was published by McGraw Hill, one of largest publishers in the world, yet has never been reviewed by a mainstream tennis source. I have only found it reviewed by a North Carolina longtime student of tennis who felt it was one of the best five tennis books ever written, and he had a fifty year history in tennis. Weird that you came under attack so much, as I have, but when you tested the data, you found it effective. That is what people on this site need to know. That MTM has a great track record.

    Here is the best definition of MTM I have ever read by Akiva Lacterman of tennisinthezone.com and I hope Fuzzy Yellow Balls, Coaching Mastery, BB, and many of the great coaches and old timers on here understand the real magic behind the Power of Simplicity. Bruce Lee, who had such a great influence on the development of MTM when Oscar thought about the power of the one inch punch, really describes the secret of this very simplistic but powerful method.

    Akiva Lacterman, 6.0 player and MTM coach: "So the reason I teach MTM is that it works. I love Oscar Wegner's comparisons of tennis to martial arts and I would like to make another comparison when it comes to technique.

    Bruce Lee said." One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity. It is merely simplicity;the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Art is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method the less opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom. Though they play an important role in the early stage, the techniques should not be too mechanical, complex or restrictive. If we cling blindly to them ,we will eventually become bound by their limitations. Remember, you are expressing the techniques not doing the techniques. If somebody attacks you your response is not Technique No.1, Stance 2, Section 4, Paragraph 5. Instead you simply move in like sound and echo, without any deliberation".

    Akiva Lacterman: "MTM technique is like this. You learn the important mechanics, they are simple and uncomplicated. You begin,over time, to express these mechanics without thought because of their simplicity and you feel freedom. This is a very joyful state to be in when playing tennis."
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
    #2
  3. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    984
    Location:
    Pangaea
    Thanks for the review majordude.

    teachestennis, Occam's razor, (or even Ockham's razor) states that the theory with the fewest assumptions is more likely correct. Not the most simple.
     
    #3
  4. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,481
    Location:
    Arkansas
    There is a large section of the US teaching population who believe strictly in teaching in a very sterile environment. What I mean by "sterile environment" is they think that students must complete a certain step by step process of hitting structure, in-particular they are this way in regards to footwork. They are strict "Turn, Step, Hit." Others are strict with keeping the feet pointed forward and turning the shoulders all the way, dropping the racquet all the way down to the side; and then cross stepping, making a certain amount of steps before they can step forward and hit. That kind of prevalent mentality can cause people to think that lacking a strict pattern means as you put it "not a great game."

    When people fervently believe in something they do not react well to that belief being challenged. I doubt that MTM guys are any better with all the Wegner propaganda that's part of the curriculum. I'm half way through the Wegner e-book I was sent and it does have a certain "cult of personality" to the writing. That said the actual content has peeked my interest enough that I'm going to lay down the $100 for the Wegner set.
    So, in a week or so I could become an MTM/Wegner Zealot or a more informed individualist instructor.

    -SF
     
    #4
  5. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,169
    Are you referring to the Singapore Open pro tournament that ended in
    1999?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Open_(tennis)

    There might be prize money, but it's no longer a PRO tournament.

    Is this the Mark Carruthers you are referring to?
    http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/activity.asp?player=100082611

    Looks like he lost in the 1st round qualifying for a futures tournament
    but it was a close 3 setter and the guy is ranked about a 1000.

    If he won in Singapore, would his results be here somewhere?
    http://www.singtennis.org.sg/trialframe.asp?location=tournament
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
    #5
  6. volusiano

    volusiano Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,642
    Thanks for sharing your feedback on this.

    I don't think people are irritated because the Wegner method teaching a good game but not a great game like you think. Nobody is that petty. I think it has more to do with how it's being portrayed and marketed as the best thing since sliced bread in the tennis world all of a sudden.

    If it's been portrayed as "a quick and easy way to learn tennis", or like one of those introductory "tennis for dummies" kind of thing, it wouldn't have irritated people so much. But they differentiate it as "revolutionary" and "modern" and "a better way" than the conventional way, which is why some people feel it's a bit of a hype. It's just ANOTHER way, that's all, with a focus on the natural and obvious approach to keep things simple.
     
    #6
  7. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Ojai, CA
    Regarding Mark Carruthers, I meant the Singapore Open a few months ago, he made the finals, and I believe it's a futures tournament but I could be wrong because I did not look it up. He wrote about how it nearly killed him training for it. I was making the point he's still a pretty good player because he's actually a coach now. He grew up playing the likes of Hewitt, Gonzo, and many more famous names in the juniors before he wised up and realized he was not going to beat those guys, lol. I referred to his website www.noworriestennis.com because he makes a lot of funny points about tennis and can speak from an interesting perspective. If you get a chance to read the Letter to Rafa, not only will it leave you in stitches but he's given Rafa the perfect nickname. The letter regarding Davydenko being found murdered on the court is great, too.

    And for many players who have been regimented into a robotic attack attack attack style and told that the real secret of tennis is just to hit flat balls within 3 feet of the baseline (and yes there have been top academies where that is the mantra) or told that you had to go through certain progressions to learn to copy the pros, MTM is revolutionary. As a tennis coach who got out of active duty Air Force and settled into teaching tennis in Rantoul, IL in 1991 through 1994 (we had two indoor courts at the old Chanute AFB and I had one of them to teach on), I'm sure I saw Oscar's TV shows at some point but I was told by two very famous names in tennis at a coaching convention that science would prove Oscar's theories had no merit, that he taught a clay court game that had not application to American tennis. So I ignored him and his book which I saw in the libraries where I looked for the next great tennis "secret." I saw his website in the late 1990s appear and change a lot and I remember thinking "overhype" until I got Master Strokes 1 and 2 in 2003 and then my world started to turn upside down as this was the opposite of what we were teaching in Springfield, IL and then I moved to St. Louis area where I found great resistance to the videos until three other coaches started noticing it worked when we tried it. One of the biggest coaching names in St. Louis was Andy Davis, who had a great reputation after working with some of the biggest names in tennis personally (Harry Hopman and his Australian team as well assistant coach to Rick Macci) could not believe the results I got until he got the same results and he and I realized that USA tennis was full of contradictory data and inferior data which explains why this forum is so popular, people want something that works and is sustainable on court, and you get great advice from some of these guys on here that is better than many of the "famous" names. Andy then converted the largest boys program in the city of St. Louis (with my help) and the next year he was hired to work at Newcombe's tennis ranch and the fight was on. I did get too pushy, when the USPTA announced they were phasing out conventional coaching, I said that was proof conventional coaching must go.

    Someone has to set the standard. Oscar chose to be that guy. You don't think he knows what he is doing? He's made some mistakes, but the guy sure knows tennis. Read Chapter 19 of that 1989 book and it's essentially the battle cry of Patrick McEnroe and Jose Higueras regarding the importance of clay court play. But you'll never hear mention of Oscar's name though Higueras and Oscar have a history going back to Spain. Why would one coach want to credit another. It's normal to want to be the guy who has it all figured out, that is human nature. I wish I could say I had original thoughts in tennis and I've written extensively on the subject. Oscar will tell you he's borrrowed from countless coaches but he claims to be the first to stress the correct biomechanical strokes in a simplified teaching system for optimal tennis play.

    I don't really teach players with MTM as much as I "free them up." I give them room to run naturally and have some success rallying. Then I show them how to add a few finer points and then a few months later, they are split stepping naturally, and they are carioking on the BH slice naturally, and they even shuffle naturally after I remove that silly beginner shuffle which I banned all my coaches from using and they were shocked at how much better students hit (though we often teach a natural shuffle later on).

    And yes, Ockham's razor has a common meaning and a scientific meaning which do not match. I have written a long article which I will republish about Occam's razor in tennis (both spellings are accepted). But MTM does make very few assumptions, I write most of these threads with no editing or forethought, often quickly without thinking, I feel like I know this debate so well because I am a true tennis instruction historian, so I need to start reading them before I hit the submit button.

    Revolutions are never without spilled blood, even in tennis. The USTA still claims on their website today THERE IS NO OPTIMAL TECHNIQUE. That is a debate worth having. The Russians would disagree. Let's see, they have a half dozen men in the top 100 and have had as many as 19 women in the top 100 this year. The USA should be ashamed given Venus and Serena didn't even come out of the USTA system. Who is more likely right?
     
    #7
  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    No need to follow the arrogant definition in Wiki, which calls others wrong in error. Merriam-Webster uses simple in it's definition, as do many other more respected sources.

    Main Entry: Oc·cam's razor
    Variant(s): also Ock·ham's razor \ˈä-kəmz-\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: William of Occam
    Date: circa 1837

    : a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities


    Even men of Science quoted further down in the Wiki def use the term, simple, as the catch word to define Occam's razor premise.
     
    #8
  9. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    Nice honest review. I think some are more influenced by presentation than content. You clearly had the ability to see past that, and I think with time you will find the instruction even more helpful as you and your wife advance as players.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
    #9
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,813
    There was no Tennis channel at that time
     
    #10
  11. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    984
    Location:
    Pangaea

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    --Albert Einstein
     
    #11
  12. majordude

    majordude Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    104
    Who knows what channel it is. ESPN or something. You can tell it was made for TV or maybe a part of a larger show. My point was that the video and audio quality of some of the DVDs is veeery low. Like downloading a YouTube video and burning it to disc. :)
     
    #12
  13. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    teachestennis has the more exact history on those vids, but they were being made for Tv, then were blocked by tennis politics related to his system.
     
    #13
  14. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    984
    Location:
    Pangaea
    Using Occam's razor I might suggest he couldn't sell them to anyone, and didn't want to pay for the infomercial; it requires less assumptions to theorize that he was ignored.
     
    #14
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,813
    Yes I got it. I was just nitpicking because I recall Tennis Channel making a big deal of celebrating 5 years of existence recently.
     
    #15
  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    Of course Occam's may not really apply here as it only says when all other theories are equal, and in this case, your theory is not close to equal and actually has 0% merit.
     
    #16
  17. Sublime

    Sublime Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    772
    So theory 1 was that the video series was produced, but that the small handful of potential buyers (espn, pbs, ???) weren't interested or didn't think they could sell ad space for them.

    Theory 2 is that the videos were viewed by the tennis equivalent of the Free Masons, who determined them to be damaging to tennis in general. They met and agreed that their content must never be seen by recreational tennis players anywhere. Being the uber-powerful group that they are, with arms that extend up to the top officials at ESPN and even into high ranking positions in the CIA, it was all to easy to black list it.

    I agree, theory 2 holds much more merit.
     
    #17
  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    Interesting conclusion, given the way you state it.
    We know that theory 1 in not the truth, and your version of theory 2 is quite interestingly creative, but as usual by detractors, exaggerated beyond usefulness.
     
    #18
  19. Sublime

    Sublime Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    772
    I don't have an opinion on MTM as I've never read or seen any of the material. My comment is simply on the situation.

    How do "we know that theory 1 is not the truth"? Who was the series produced for? Were you either one of the producers? Were you the program director at ESPN?
     
    #19
  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,813
    Is there any FREE video of Oscar Wegner's serving tips/lessons? I don't want to sign on to any site. Just want to see a free floating video on Youtube or somewhere else.
     
    #20
  21. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,481
    Location:
    Arkansas
    I finished the E-book and I did order the DVD set myself this morning. Looking forward to it.
    Just one thing. . . If something should happen to me, please remember me as I was. . .

    -SF
     
    #21
  22. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    4,184
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Appreciate your feedback on this forum. Now about that "feel" thing:
    Wegner in his book eschews the whole big backswing windup and all (all well and good) and instead tells the reader to reach out and feel for the ball with the racquet. Though I agree with his contention that the free-flowing "release" of the racquet (i.e. follow through) is what's really important, I'm curious as to how "pointing the racquet tip at the ball," (probing for the ball) can generate enough transferrable energy let alone racquet head speed into the ball. thx
     
    #22
  23. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Come on Teachestennis, are you kidding me?

    How many times do we need to go around and around about this.

    It is your history and the claims that Oscar Wegner is the "father of modern tennis" that is a laugher. Should I repost what Oscar wrote???? He loves being called the "Father of Modern Tennis" it helps him sell more DVD's until someone shows him a photo in 1926 that destroys any inclination of that.

    How many times do I need to just provide one picture of evidence that says he is not!

    How many times do we need to go around and around countering your false propaganda surrounding to this guy?

    We are not dishing the intruction that he has developed. If a player wants to learn it, go for it.

    However, he marketing attempts, getting his clones like you in here pumping him up like a god or some person that "discovered" the open stance, western grip, or WW swing is just ridiculous.

    He creatred his own instruction, bravo, it isn't rocket science to do a little studying and create instruction!!!!

    And his instruction is not perfect nor is it communicated perfectly.

    You and your little clones simply want o exaggerate one side of the coin, and pump yours up like it is the Holy Grail.

    Maybe for simple-minded coaches it is! However, even your beloved and worshipped Oscar admitted he simply reviewed what was happening and simply created instruction for it.

    It already existed. It was already being taught. It was already being learned. He just jumped on the bandwagon and started his own instruction.

    And your history of tennis? Should I laugh? You haven't been able to disprove anything I have said with regard to the history of tennis.

    Here is what I think. I think you are a smart guy who understands that if you say something enough times, naive people will believe it even though evidence states otherwise.

    Well, I will always be here to challenge you and counter your false propoganda.
     
    #23
  24. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Ojai, CA
    Actually, Theory 2 holds a lot of merit. What essentially happened was Oscar in 1989 self published the book even having Guga Kuerten and other students help him put the first 300 copies together in his living room (he nearly burned up the copier at a local copy store) when he moved to Florida to challenge the tennis establishment and warning in Chapter 19 that things were not looking good for USA tennis, the last words ending with: "Prophecy? Perhaps." He knew after Spain and now much of South America were adopting his techniques that this was likely to be the tennis model of the future and that the USA had to change. In 1991, Tennis Magazine started a TV show (the precursor to the Tennis Channel) that was shown on Prime Ticket. Brad Holbrook was hired as the host and started featuring Van der Meer and a host of others but I want to note that Nick Bollettieri was also not invited. Bud Collins, the games most well known commentator as well as the game's historian, upon discovering from the Russian coaches that they were using Oscar's 1989 book, challenges Oscar to prove his claims on court in a 1991 weekend with all ages and some total beginners. Bud sees with his own eyes that this is likely the future of tennis instruction if the sport it to grow, and when asked by Thomas Nelson Publishers, the largest Bible publisher in the world, to write a foreword for Oscar's second book (essentially a 2nd edition), Bud agrees since he had witnessed Oscar's new style and met Oscar when WEgner was a Junior Davis Cup Captain for Spain in 1973.

    Brad Holbrook hears about a coach spending the summer in the Northeast (Oscar had been hired in Maine and then to work in New York City) named Oscar Wegner who astonishes people with his teaching. Brad decides to take a lesson from Oscar on court and is astonished by what he sees. He brings Oscar into the Tennis Magazine Show. Tennis Magazine is furious, and dont' think they just blacklisted Oscar at the time. I think Dorothy Dandridge, the editor of TEnnis Magazine, shorthrifted Nicky B also and essentially ignored him for several years which I find odd, so it wasn't just Oscar. Brad Holbrook was told to get rid of Oscar or else. Brad tells TEnnis Magazine he's backing Oscar and he leaves to start a syndicated tennis show featuring Oscar Wegner. It was these shows that were filmed and virtually unedited, made into the videos in 1992 beginning with Master Strokes 1 and 2. Then came Tennis 101 and Play Like the Pros and then the 10 Amazing Secrets. Brad syndicates the shows all over the USA and from 1992 to 1994, Oscar gets exposure on Prime Sports Network (now Fox Sports). So, yes the powers that be in tennis sought to keep Oscar off the airwaves but Richard Williams admitted it was these shows that the videos were made from that he taped and had Venus and Serena watch everyday which probably accounts for their "ugly footwork" (I wish my players had such "ugly footwork) and open stance off both sides that is their signature still today. Richard even told Oscar his stuff made so much sense that is why he had his girls watch them everyday.

    Oscar was then hired by ESPN International to be the Spanish tennis commentator and thus an entire generation of South American kids grew up in the 1990s listening to Oscar point how Graf "stalks the ball" pointing at the ball with her racket tip and how pros never stayed down through the shot when our announcers were claiming opposite tenets.

    Oscar becomes so popular overseas during the 1990s that ESPN decides to have him do a series of tennis tips. They were so "weird" and "unorthodox" that for ESPN, they made a business decision more than likely not to bite the hand that bought advertising from them (USTA?) and thus they then hired Jimmy Arias to do conventional tennis tips and thus Oscar's ESPN TV Tips were seen in 170 countries with Billions (with a B) of TV impressions and became very popular, ESPN even being asked to repeat them overseas and people were reported to have cheered in bars when he came on making fun of conventional coaching. The tips were show during Super Bowls, big soccer matches, and big events such as the NBA finals when the Bulls were winning their last three straight, but those famous TV tips have never been seen once on American TV, only on ESPN International, which explains Oscar's lack of media exposure in the USA, where TEnnis Magazine has never once mentioned his name.

    So now you have a bit of history explaining the incredible resistance to Oscar's MTM that goes on today, though everyone is now moving his way and all players on both tours all use WWs as their primary shots with the racket butt pointing towards the opposite court just as he first advocated as a 28 year old coach in Beverly Hills working alongside Pancho Segura and Pancho Gonzalez, who used Oscar as a practice partner punching bag, lol.

    My History of USA Tennis Instruction is free on my website for all to read. It's fascinating to discover that if you tried to swing a racquet like Federer you were essentially lambasted by the tennis powers in the USA (see the 1975 entry in Part 1) who had no clue as to what the future of tennis would look like.

    For those who don't know, Oscar is offering a free ebook of his original book that is in my opinion the best technique book ever written. Email me at eztennisswing@ yahoo.com if you want a copy. No charge.
     
    #24
  25. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    His name is assciated with false claims. His name is used to spread false information with regard to other coaches and people in general because of the chip on his shoulder and how he cried when others didnt want to listen to him.

    He simply took current strokes and created his own instruction around it. That is all he did. There is no Oscar history. There is no Father of Modern Tennis. There is nothing like that at all.

    His clones want you to believe he developed the Holy Grail. They will pump you up with a few players that used his instruction to get better. Nevermind, the many many others that didn't need his instruction to learn the game.

    Good! It should be discounted after all the false information his little clones promoted!

    My gosh. Of course they are low quality!!!!! It is how he makes money!!! he pumps his product up through Scientology beleivers and off they go!!! I wouldn't be surpirsed if TeachesTennis wore a short sleeve shirt, a tie, and rode a bike around his neigborhood!!

    My gosh man, why does he need to create a quality DVD when he has people like you that will buy it anyway?

    Run instead of shuffles? Are you kidding me? That is on the DVD's? Push instead of "Whack"???

    You remind me of those TV commercials that sell products. On one scene the person is having a terrible time doing it "the old way." Then in comes the guy using the new product, and he is smiling, and making it look like the product is a miracle for only $19.99!!!!

    But wait!! If you call within the next half-hour, we will throw in two BS stories for you to buy!

    Dude, maybe you are just bad at guitar? Every musician knows you have to do both. Practice (and sometimes that means scales!!!) and play the darn songs!!!! What are you practicing for?

    Maybe it isn't the coaching but your way of looking at what you think you need to do. Have you ever thought it just might be you?

    Wow!! A miracle for only $19.99! If I order within the next half-hour can I get another for my friend? :)

    My gosh, Rosetta Stone? You can do your own internet search on the truth of Rosetta Stone, but let me give you one:

    "Really, it would be a challenge to find a language software package that does not claim to be based on "immersion". There may be a simple explanation for this. While books are still being published to accommodate traditional methods of language instruction the world of multimedia creates a general sense that some shortcuts can be taken. You just pop a CD in a computer, put on headphones and voil! in a few hours you know French! Does it really work that way? You guessed it, it doesn't. But what does work? How is it possible that Rosetta Stone, one of the methods that claim to be using this "immersion technique" clearly stands out from the crowd and enjoys a growing popularity?


    The principles."

    It is the fundamentals that work. It is the fundamentals that are taught by many many coaches that Oscar and his follower love to put down, trash, destroy, and put out false information. It is bogus junk spread by a man with a chip on his shoulder.

    If instruction is what you want, then stick to that. Just know that it takes more than the coach or instruction to make a good tennis player. It also takes the player and a heck of a lot of practice and discipline.

    Communication? Is that all it is with you? Well, communication is a two-way street. The receiver of communication and the provider of the communication. Short-circuits happen in all instructors and in all instruction. There is not one instructional method that is perfect and not one instructor that is perfect. Even Oscar followers admit they had to go out and "reinstruct" those using his product.

    The bottom-line is, you found something that you connect with and since you have no background in tennis instruction, you really don't know what is based on false premise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
    #25
  26. majordude

    majordude Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    104
    I don't know if I've ever heard Oscar call himself that but he doesn't object when others do!

    I will say that he does say on many of the DVDs that this is nothing new, some have played this way back in the 40s or something.

    Perhaps he is the first one to market it as a "system". As a capitalist I can't fault the guy for making a living.
     
    #26
  27. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,481
    Location:
    Arkansas
    I can see why some stand on principal, but to me that's exactly right, this is capitalism and marketing.
    It's the zealotry that gets me.

    -SF
     
    #27
  28. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    13,916





    You have to be kidding me if you expect us to believe this story that Oscar was portrayed as an ignorant rebel by U.S. tennis and then paved the way for "modern tennis" in countries like South America and Spain.



    Look, you can promote MTM all you want, but trying to portray Oscar as the Galileo of tennis isn't exactly the best way to do it.



    Also, I am certain the WW motion existed well before Oscar even started coaching, because I'm pretty sure I've seen the likes of Laver, Newcome, Borg, etc. use it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
    #28
  29. Sublime

    Sublime Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    772
    Why were they furious?
     
    #29
  30. majordude

    majordude Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    104
    Well, it runs both ways I'm afraid. In just this thread alone I've noticed nothing short of three people shouting "HERETIC! HERETIC!" directed at Wegner as if he was Martin Luther posting a letter on the Church's front door.

    :)
     
    #30
  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    Clearly the US game, even on a rec. basis, is moving in the direction Oscar predicted 40 yrs ago. Some who have jumped on the band wagon in the last 10-15yrs with partial adoption will continue to claim to be the same, but still struggle with understanding and lots of false info included in what they proclaim. Their comments will fade from rants against Oscar, to rants against his claims, later to didn't like his marketing, til finally to "I already knew he was right, but just used different terms". This is already firmly in motion. Some just don't want to see these who are struggling with the change, hold players like you back as they work thru it.
     
    #31
  32. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,481
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Hmm, yeah. I would agree to an extent. Good point. I need to find a would that means those who call others Heretics.

    Suggestions?

    -SF
     
    #32
  33. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Majordude,

    There are others. He is just using false propoganda and his army to promote it through false claims and exaggerations. Since I have been around tennis for a long long time, I take a bit of offense to seeing someone take what others have done and claiming it as his own. That is something the recreational tennis player may not care about, but since I have been a former instructor, it is offensive and flat out wrong.

    However, you are a cool guy. You took my stuff in stride. I hope you do learn from the system and your tennis grows from Oscars instruction.

    However, remember, his instruction is just that, instruction and nothing else. There is no invention, much of it already existed, and he simply packaged it his own way. Most importantly, there are a lot of exaggerations everywhere in tennis. On Oscar's side and the so-called "Conventional side."

    In all methods there is good and not-so-good things to learn. And in all methods, players go so far before they need new input or a fresh perspective. Just keep that in mind because there is nothing new under the sun - nothing.

    And also remember, always prepare early for the ball.

    Good luck to you and your wife.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
    #33
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    good point.
     
    #34
  35. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,019
    Location:
    Switzerland
    I am a bit perplexed by all of these Oscar Wegner threads. I read his "play better tennis in 2 hours" and, apart from the forehand chapter, found nothing particularly new. Here he points out how players like Bill Johnston hit topspin forehands already in the 20's. Lew Hoad did it also in the 50's, and even shaving wood off his rackets to get more of a quick whipping stroke. Later Tom Okker, Laver and his "wristy" forehand...

    Wegner, however, is the first I am aware of to give central importance to this topspin stroke in instruction. Not his invention, just his placing emphasis on topspin, as it were the only type of forehand and omitting the flat forehand, and even, "shudder" the slice forehand.

    For topspin his "hit up and across" emphasis is a good tip.

    The chapter on the serve was nothing special. No modern tennis regarding the serve, IMHO. As I mentioned previously, even a photo showing the player landing on the right foot, which no modern pro does anymore. I thought the idea was to teach students to "play like the pros".

    I find the title of his books misleading. Playing better in 2 hours is misleading. It takes a lot of hard work to achieve improvements and change habits, much more than two hours.
     
    #35
  36. majordude

    majordude Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    104
    Honestly, the funny thing is, he doesn't seem to be stealing the information or claiming it as his own. Granted, you've been around a lot longer than me and might have seen or read about him doing this but in the videos he says, "I teach people to hit the ball like this, which is the way Agassi does it." So far I haven't heard him say that he invented it (but there are more videos to go through).

    Awww shucks! :oops:

    Crap, now you tell me! I'm halfway though building my alter to Oscar in my garage! I just need a few more balls, a racket and a park bench for a pew.
     
    #36
  37. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Ojai, CA
    Maybe Because he taught an unorthodox "play by feel" method rather than the rigid mechanical style taught my the hierarchies. That is why the Bruce Lee analogy was so perfect to describe MTM. Bruce Lee was also hated, but then he kicked everyone's theories out the door and make people look at martial arts differently. I know I read part of Oscar's book in 1993 in a library and went to the ******* USPTA convention where a coach brought up his book before I could and we were told to disregard Oscar, that scientific studies would prove his play by feel methods had no merit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
    #37
  38. Cody

    Cody Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    543
    Let me ask one question,

    Does wegners teachings which i have no idea about contain different fundaments to say fuzzy yellow balls.???

    Just want to get an idea about this stuff?
     
    #38
  39. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Ojai, CA
    If you were teaching The Standard Method and had been the first coach to promote standardizing all instruction, as Dennis Van der Meer had been, but then a guy shows up challenging your basic tenets of "turn, step , and hit through the target line, you might feel challenged. If the accepted methods of most tennis teachers were the opposite of some guy who comes along and claims you are teaching myths that inhibit tennis growth, you might take offense, and I ignored Oscar for ten years trusting my tennis mentors. Bungalow Bill, I am not a scientologist, I am a Christian first and foremost, and my 18 year old daughter and 12 year old son are raised in a Christian church and wouldn't even know what scientology is. What does religion have to do with his anyway?

    I've noted that many played this way, but the USPTA and PTR did not teach windshield wipers until the term came into vogue in this century. Sure Borg and people back in the 19th century used windshield wipers, but Borg told Oscar he kept his swing despite coaches trying to change it because it worked.

    I've never called Oscar the father of modern tennis, but he does claim to have put together a simplified teaching teaching methodology that gets optimal results for the greatest number of people. If anyone shows me better results, I will push them ahead of MTM, and it states such on my website. Oscar was ignored, maybe because he made coaches nervous that tennis was so simple to teach using his system, that a father like Bob Kirchheimer could use MTM to raise his son to the #2 ranking in 12 and unders when he was not part of the "good old pros network." Maybe it's bothersome to the Tennis coaching hierarchies that a father in the great tennis center known as Thailand orders the videos for his teen son and coaches him to #10 in the world when he's not a "certified coach" and there are very few tennis courts in the entire country. I could see where Oscar's claims that parents can coach their children could be seen as threatening to the "establishment." Who knows why they fight him so much. Seems to me, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "they doth protest too much." MTM and Oscar are just trying to help.

    I think I've tried to be fair. I advocate Dave Smith and Will Hamilton and Tomas Menzcinger earlier in this same thread as people I recommend. Oscar is not the final answer, he is for me, however, my foundation because over time he is proven more right than wrong. Landsdorp proved Oscar wrong on the reverse forehand and those are Oscar's words when he (Oscar) told me that he didn't originally think it would become an offensive weapon. I sensed he was kind of disappointed when I discovered Dick Bradlee advocated open stance forehands in a book before Oscar ever did on court, even, though Bradlee did not advocate the WW. I even noted that Tom Stow was the first coach I could find in print in 1948 to advocate copying the best strokes of each pro, that open stance was taught in print over a hundred years ago, but then dropped in favor of the nuetral stance and thus open stance was believed to be something only done at the faster speeds of the game by super athletes who had special athletic powers. I copied Borg's forehand and Connor's backhand (Jimmy grew up blocks from me) and was told I would hurt my elbow and back knee hitting off my back foot and thus I was forced to play like Stan Smith and became a scrub after being scholarship material.

    BB, all I've done is provide an alternative viewpoint. It is interesting that a guy with such acclaim as Wegner can almost never be found in mainstream tennis media though the owner of tennisone.com just asked him to start writing for them regularly and Oscar finally agreed. I help certify and train coaches, many of them well respected with resumes that would shame mine, and I can't be a zealot for just Oscar. I am a zealot for the growth of tennis, and why is Oscar giving his ebook out free is all he is concerned with is money and marketing. I have to go teach tennis for three more lessons today given it warmed up here in St. Louis and my phone is ringing like crazy. I make no false claims about Oscar that I know of. My history praises Tom Stow's book of 1948 as far ahead of it's time and he might be the best strategic coach I've ever found in terms of lasting influence (Doug King and the Stefanki's, Brent Abel, Jim McLennan are just a few of his actual on court students as well as Don Budge) I even used press reports to document Borg's second comeback which most people don't know was a lot more successful than his first one. MTM is an alternative way of teaching and learning to play tennis. It has a proven track record and it's interesting that everyone is moving this way.

    With Oscar you dont' need false propaganda. He is "known and respected around the world", and that is a quote from Guga Kuerten, yet if it wasn't for his marketing, how many would know of him given the USA resistance to his teachings. I met Andy Rosenberg, who his the Director of NBC Sports and directed every Wimbledon and the French Open the last two decades as well a lot of US Opens for USA Network. He is the guy who filmed Oscar's tennis tips because as he studied the pros closely (every Wimbledon slo mo you see on center court is usually his call) he knew that was being taught in the USA was not working very well. Andy would know, given his prominent role in filming every Wimbledon and French Open the last few decades.

    So Oscar has his supporters, Bill, because though you have a great body of experience, and I must state that I was impressed by your recent explanation of the BH slice and your own attempt to improve and work on your own, that you have trial and error on your side, plus a great body of experience. Not all of us in the USPTA or PTR had that, given we were told a specific way to teach normally, and thus afraid to experiment outside the box. I still learn all the time, Bill, which even surprises me sometimes given I do have a tendency to want to feel comfortable with my teaching, but MTM teaches me that the student is the real teacher, something that is a bit scary but I now accept. I just don't think you should portray me as spreading false propaganda. Why would I do that when I have a book coming out next year on the History of USA Tennis Instruction though I might call it Mad Tennis, lol. This MTM stuff sure makes certain people mad when I claim its' just an alternative people should consider and know about before they speak. "Truth withstands any attack" is my overall philosophy. If I'm wrong, when I find out, I admit it.
     
    #39
  40. shanker

    shanker Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    146
    Bungalo Bill, I'm going to have to agree with you on one thing and say the Scientology angle makes me nervous. On my second reading of Oscar's book I noticed it. I wish he would have just left that part out. What purpose does it serve other that to alienate the ignorant (like me).

    I'm a relatively inexperienced player and I have enjoyed reading his book as well as Braden's and Dave Smith's. Maybe one day I will find the holy grail of tennis????

    Greg
     
    #40
  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,813
    LOL and in the new way, the picture is shown in color and the girl is slimmer too! The product not only did what it was supposed to, it also changed the characters from black and white to color, and made them better looking!
     
    #41
  42. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Ojai, CA
    If you were teaching The Standard Method and had been the first coach to promote standardizing all instruction, as Dennis Van der Meer had been, but then a guy shows up challenging your basic tenets of "turn, step , and hit through the target line, you might feel challenged and threatened. If the accepted methods of most tennis teachers were the opposite of some guy who comes along and claims you are teaching myths that inhibit tennis growth, you might take offense, and I ignored Oscar for ten years trusting my tennis mentors. Bungalow Bill, I am not a scientologist, I am a Christian first and foremost, and my 18 year old daughter and 12 year old son are raised in a Christian church and wouldn't even know what scientology is. What does religion have to do with this anyway?

    I've noted that many played this way, but the USPTA and PTR did not teach windshield wipers until the term came into vogue in this century. Sure Borg and people back in the 19th century used windshield wipers, but Borg told Oscar he kept his swing despite coaches trying to change it because it worked.

    I've never called Oscar the father of modern tennis, but he does claim to have put together a simplified teaching teaching methodology that gets optimal results for the greatest number of people. If anyone shows me better results, I will push them ahead of MTM, and it states such on my website. Oscar was ignored, maybe because he made coaches nervous that tennis was so simple to teach using his system, that a father like Bob Kirchheimer could use MTM to raise his son to the #2 ranking in 12 and unders when he was not part of the "good old pros network." Maybe it's bothersome to the Tennis coaching hierarchies that a father in the great tennis center known as Thailand orders the videos for his teen son and coaches him to #10 in the world when he's not a "certified coach" and there are very few tennis courts in the entire country. I could see where Oscar's claims that parents can coach their children could be seen as threatening to the "establishment." Who knows why they fight him so much. Seems to me, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "they doth protest too much." MTM and Oscar are just trying to help.

    I think I've tried to be fair. What's really funny is in our MTM Coaching Roundtable only accessible to MTM coaches I quote BB and even credit him for his contributions though I am not sure you understand that I am about growing the game more than I am promoting MTM. I advocate Dave Smith and Will Hamilton and Tomas Menzcinger earlier in this same thread as people I recommend. Oscar is not the final answer, he is for me, however, my foundation because over time he has been proven more right than wrong. Landsdorp proved Oscar wrong on the reverse forehand and those are Oscar's words when he (Oscar) told me that he didn't originally think it would become an offensive weapon. I sensed he was kind of disappointed when I discovered Dick Bradlee advocated open stance forehands in a book before Oscar ever did on court, even, though Bradlee did not advocate the WW. I even noted that Tom Stow was the first coach I could find in print in 1948 to advocate copying the best strokes of each pro, that open stance was taught in print over a hundred years ago, but then dropped in favor of the neutral stance and thus open stance was believed to be something only done at the faster speeds of the game by super athletes who had special athletic powers. I copied Borg's forehand and Connor's backhand (Jimmy grew up blocks from me) and was told I would hurt my elbow and back knee hitting off my back foot and thus I was forced to play like Stan Smith and became a scrub after being scholarship material.

    BB, all I've done is provide an alternative viewpoint. It is interesting that a guy with such acclaim as Wegner can almost never be found in mainstream tennis media though the owner of tennisone.com just asked him to start writing for them regularly and Oscar finally agreed. I help certify and train coaches, many of them well respected with resumes that would shame mine, and I can't be a zealot for just Oscar. I am a zealot for the growth of tennis, and why is Oscar giving his ebook out free to anyone who asks me? He told me to give it out because he is willing to put MTM out against any teaching out there. I have to go teach tennis for three more lessons today given it warmed up here in St. Louis and my phone is ringing like crazy. I make no false claims about Oscar that I know of. My history praises Tom Stow's book of 1948 as far ahead of it's time and he might be the best strategic coach I've ever found in terms of lasting influence (Doug King and the Stefanki's, Brent Abel, Jim McLennan are just a few of his actual on court students as well as Don Budge) I even used press reports to document Borg's second comeback which most people don't know was a lot more successful than his first one. MTM is an alternative way of teaching and learning to play tennis. It has a proven track record and it's interesting that everyone is moving this way.

    With Oscar you dont' need false propaganda. He is "known and respected around the world", and that is a quote from Guga Kuerten, yet if it wasn't for his marketing, how many would know of him given the USA resistance to his teachings. I met Andy Rosenberg, who his the Director of NBC Sports and directed every Wimbledon and the French Open the last two decades as well a lot of US Opens for USA Network. He is the guy who filmed Oscar's tennis tips because as he studied the pros closely (every Wimbledon slo mo you see on center court is usually his call) he knew that was being taught in the USA was not working very well. Andy would know, given his prominent role in filming every Wimbledon and French Open the last few decades.

    So Oscar has his supporters, Bill, because though you have a great body of experience, and I must state that I was impressed by your recent explanation of the BH slice and your own attempt to improve and work on your own, that you have trial and error on your side, plus a great body of experience. Not all of us in the USPTA or PTR had that, given we were told a specific way to teach normally, and thus afraid to experiment outside the box. I still learn all the time, Bill, which even surprises me sometimes given I do have a tendency to want to feel comfortable with my teaching, but MTM teaches me that the student is the real teacher, something that is a bit scary but I now accept. I just don't think you should portray me as spreading false propaganda. Why would I do that when I have a book coming out next year on the History of USA Tennis Instruction though I might call it Mad Tennis, lol. This MTM stuff sure makes certain people mad when I claim its' just an alternative people should consider and know about before they speak. "Truth withstands any attack" is my overall philosophy. If I'm wrong, when I find out, I admit it.
     
    #42
  43. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,095
    OK. I do not have a dog in this fight. I have not read or watched any of Oscar's instructional material, nor do I intend to.

    Here is my question, specifically directed to TeachesTennis:

    You have written scores of lengthy and detailed posts extolling the virtues of this Oscar fellow and his methods. Can you please tell us any financial or other relationships or other tangible/intangible benefits that cause you to devote yourself to promoting Oscar's web site, DVDs, books etc.?

    I mean, I love tennis too, but you don't see me devoting myself to boosting one particular pro, club, method or tennis experience to the extent you do, despite my own personal exuberance over such matters.

    Help me understand what's in it for you (in 50 words or fewer!). :)

    Cindy -- who has found that the non-stop Oscar worship at TT has made her less, not more, inclined to visit the web site
     
    #43
  44. majordude

    majordude Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    104
    His sig says "MTM Certified". Two words! :)
     
    #44
  45. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Now that is funny.
     
    #45
  46. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Yes, for only $19.99 you can be a new you!
    * plus shipping and handling. New Jersey residents pay $10.00 extra in shipping. Prices subject to change. ID, MO, MI, CA, OR, MD residents add 6.00% tax. Results may vary.
     
    #46
  47. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    5,484
    Location:
    Stillwater, OK
    Hey, it's Vince with Slap Chop! You're gonna be in a good mood all day, slapping your troubles away!

    Uh, never mind. What are we talking about again? :)
     
    #47
  48. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    We are putting up with the MTM hype again and the never ending sell job they do. The never ending:

    We are bad and they are good.

    We are wrong and they are right.

    They invented tennis and we didn't invent a thing.

    We are stupid and they aren't.

    Oscar is god and we aren't.

    They are modern and we are conventional.

    We teach straight back and are stuck in the 60's and they aren't.

    They have people learn tennis in an hour and we don't.

    We go by the USPTA tennis book and only that, and they don't.

    They have told us over and over again, and we didn't listen.

    Same old, same old...
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
    #48
  49. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    5,484
    Location:
    Stillwater, OK
    Learn tennis in an hour, that's rich. I don't think I learned to tie my shoes in an hour, let alone master the game of tennis.
     
    #49
  50. boojay

    boojay Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,026
    Location:
    The Pillars of Creation
    Actually, I still can't tie my shoes. :?
     
    #50
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page