My Obligatory Oscar Wegner Review...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by majordude, Nov 1, 2009.

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  1. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I know that bb+other instructors get mad over the way oscar claims his way is right + the more conventional methods are wrong. He does come on pretty strong, so i can understand him ******* off many teachers.

    However i am just a player wanting to get better at this game.I could care less who came out with this or that method first.Or who claims to have taught more modern methods first.That does not mean anything to me.

    I do know that oscar wegners teaching methods were different than the lessons i received from usta instructors.About 6 years ago i decided to get serious with tennis, i used to just rally around with the wife once in a while.

    Both of us took lessons+ i researched different video lessons+ decided to purchase oscars play like the pros.That is when i discovered his methods were much easier to learn.

    I was being taught by instructors to take the racquet back early,keep a closed stance, follow through towards the net.Then oscar was saying the complete opposite,open stance, keep the racquet in front until ready to swing, follow through up+ across the ball.

    There was no comparison in the 2 different teaching methods. I learned so much faster with oscars videos.When he said think of brushing the ball not hitting it, that made a huge difference. I was now hitting topspin so i could take big cuts at the ball+ still keep it in the court.

    After that i really started working on racquet head speed+ kept getting more+more topspin.I was taking a lesson after that with a usta instructor + he asked me why i was trying to put so much topspin on the ball.He said just the natural stroke of going from low to high will give you enough.

    I would try his method but i would hit to many balls long.So i went back to the exaggerated topspin which enables me to swing out with much room for error.

    At the tennis club i play at anytime i play someone new the first question they ask is how do i get all that topspin.These guys have been playing for years, way longer than i have.Most use eastern forehands with conventional methods.Most also have no idea how to handle that heavy kicking topspin forehand.

    Not to say that their method is no good, many of these guys are really good.But i think it is much more difficult to become consistent with that style.

    I really think that the way oscar teaches is different+ easier to learn than a lot of the conventional ways.But if you really want to know try it then see what you think.
     
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  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Hahaha, I know. Real life vs. creative marketing has always fooled a lot of people into thinking they found the Holy Grail.

    Learn tennis in two hours. Often this is contrasted with some poor fellow struggling to even hit a ball. Poor guy swings and misses while falling to the ground in obvious pain extending his arm out crying for help. The conventional coach walks by and kicks him and tells him to get up.

    These marketers will then switch to someone with a angelic smile and hitting tennis balls in rapid fire mode like nobodies business. Then the MTM coach will smile and a sparkle will come from his teeth. He hits balls with one arm tied behind his back and is on the cellphone at the same time cupped under his ear.

    This is how MTM followers have conducted themselves around here. Full media blitz to see who they can collect into their "ways." Who they can fool into thinking that it was all them and only them that came up with today's way to play tennis.

    Forget those old teachers of the past. Nevermind that tennis is still one of the more difficult sports to master. No, they won't tell you that and they will drop names like they are falling from the sky.

    Bottom-line to this junk, is modern strokes have been modern for years and years. Oscar and his MTM has absolutely nothin on them. They created instruction that they use and so have others.

    Tennis is not rocket science. A good student of the game can develop instruction that works easily.

    Instead of providing instruction, they provide you with a link to buy their product.

    Instead of giving advice, they provide you with propoganda, name dropping, and making Oscar appear as a god to the tennis world.

    Not one of them can provide instruction. Not one of them can communicate.

    It is all about sending you to Oscar and buying his product.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
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  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Clearly these guys either like to complain or are curious about MTM, seeing how this is a MTM thread that not only do they keep reading regularly, but even take time to post.
     
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  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    They don't want to hear this. They just want to cover their eyes and cast insults and uncalled for religious references.
     
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  5. majordude

    majordude Rookie

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    A couple of logical errors:

    1. When you learned to tie your shoes you were probably just a few years old.
    2. In "Tennis in Two Hours" there is never a claim that you will master the game of tennis in two hours.

    Sheesh. Where does all this anger come from?

    Bowling is a simple game. You roll a ball up to two times and hit as many pins as you can.

    But if you don't know how to pick a ball by weight or finger holes you'd be lost. If you didn't know to wear the right shoes you'd be lost. If you didn't know how to throw the ball you'd be lost.

    I can show you how to bowl in 20 minutes.

    Is there a promise of becoming an expert in that time? No. Am I a heretic because some bowling trainers don't have a website or a catchy phrase like "Bowling in 20 Minutes"? No.

    As a matter of fact, I'll probably generate business for trainers because I can never teach someone to be a bowling expert with my DVDs and instead of the beginning bowler getting frustrated or hurt they might just want to pick it up as a hobby.
     
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  6. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Yeah, I know all that. I'm just messing around. I think we've pretty much beaten the Oscar debate to a bloody pulp by now.
     
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  7. majordude

    majordude Rookie

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    Agreed! :)
     
    #57
  8. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Now maybe oscar is exaggerating, but he claims to have taken people who have never played tennis+ have them hitting 20 shot rallys in a hours time.

    Forgive me if i am wrong but i think that he challenged other instructors to take brand new students+ both get to teach their methods for one hour+ then compare the results.He claimed that was when a lot of the naysayers started to listen+ believe him.Now that would be most interesting to witness.
     
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  9. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Major, you are such a good example here. They almost succeeded in scaring you off trying MTM training, then now that you have and felt it was worthwhile, they will continue to belittle. It's like going back to middle school, but for every story like you (and me for that matter) that get by the bully group, it is worth the effort. Thanks to those who got the word out despite all this childish name calling attempts to harass.
     
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  10. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    But it is implied. Left for people to guess what that means.

    It comes from those that use questionable marketing tactics and because of the attack on other coaches that do not use nor subscribe to Oscar's techniques.

    If you dont really have an vested interest in this sport, except to play on a recreational level, you probably wouldn't understand.

    There is no secret to learn tennis in 20 minutes, an hour, or two hours. And I certainly wont put up with people here that say if I dont teach Oscar's ways that I am "conventional" and teach from the USPTA manual.

    And I agree with both of you, time to move on.
     
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  11. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    Do you have any links from the sources themselves: Spanish Tennis federation, Spartak, and South American coaches that specifically credit Mr. Wegner for developing their coach/training methods?
    Here's what I found regarding Kuerten:
    "He was heavily influenced as a very young player by Oscar Wegner, then teaching in Florianopolis, who coached him for eight years. When he was 14 years old, Kuerten met Larri Passos who would be his coach for the following 15 years. Passos convinced Kuerten and his family that the youth was talented enough to make a living out of playing tennis. The two started traveling all over the world to participate in junior tournaments. Kuerten turned professional in 1995." SOURCE

    Did Oscar actually train and work with the Williams sisters? I will note one thing that stood out to me when I watched WTA Dohar and Venus after the match with Wozniaki, said that in the first set, she couldn't "feel the ball".
     
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  12. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Hi Cindy, I read this forum thoroughly and have enjoyed your own experience and always thought I would love to teach you for one hour so you could tell others the difference being allowed to play by feel and not by the thinking mind would make. I do know the first thing I would do is have you learn to hit the ball and then close your eyes heightening your senses once you learn to hit across it per martial arts. I would put my new Vortex 4 and 1/8 grip racket in your hands and then teach you to move naturally across the court as if you were floating like Casper the Ghost. Okay here goes in 50 words or less.

    One sentence would suffice but I'll use the quota:

    Help grow a game that should be one of the USA's most popular sports and not have what happened to me and millions of other players forced to learn mechanics that stifled our natural athletic ability to create on court. Simplify and teach correct biomechanics to every level player. (49 words)
     
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  13. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    Here's a sample MTM lesson with a female:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYbQIkNU6zc
     
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  14. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Oscar did not work with the Williams Sisters ever personlly. Richard started hitting balls out of basket to the girls when Venus was four, hired Paul Cohen, McEnroes coach when Venus was eight, later taught them Braden's stuff, then started a press campaign when Venus was ten claiming she was undefeated in the ten and unders in the Los Angeles area, the NY Times then did an article on their front page because 13 year old Capriati happened to be tearing up the pro tour, then Richard tried to get Bollettieri to take a look at them but he passed, called up every coach he could think of trying to get someone to look at his daughters, then Macci flew out to take a look at them and admits he didn't see anything special after an hour and was going to pass until Venus went out the gate and started walking on her hands to the bathroom and realized she had great athleticism and decided he could do something with her. Richard told Macci his daughter Serena would be an even better athlete. The girls got full scholarships including room and board in return for portion of future earnings. Richard fired Macci after he got a million dollar sponsorship from Reebok and Macci threatened to sue but settled out of court. It was while at Macci's that Richard Williams, always looking for anything that he could learn to coach his daughters better, discovered the TV shows with Oscar Wegner. I've looked at a lot of videos of the girls at Macci's and don't see Rick teaching them open stance off both sides, which would become their trademark (and coincidentally a hallmark of Oscar's teaching). When they left Macci's, Richard built two clay courts and taught them using a variety of hitting partners for three years before Venus reentered the tour at 17 after a three year absence. Richard has thanked Oscar personally and hugged him in 1999 and then told him he used the TV show videos to help train his daughters since they made so much sense. When Oscar claimed on his sight at first Richard bought the videos, Richard called up Oscar and corrected him, noting that he taped the shows and had his daughters watch them daily. Richard had Oscar in his box at Amelia Island early in 2007 for a private conversation right before Venus went on a tear and recovered her top ten ranking. So they are friendlyand also spoke in Manhattan Beach a year or so ago. This story of the Williams Sisters and more details are covered in my History of TEnnis Instruction on my website. No charge to read anything in the MTM library.

    I have many goals which include to force the USTA to look at an optimal biomechanical technique for all level players. To get an on court debate with any coaches who dare to test alternative methods against Oscar for the world to see, which we just proposed to tennisone.com but Shanley (owner) said that is not the mission of tennisone.com though he wants Oscar to write for them. I wanted to be an expert in tennis instruction my entire life. I thought I would be great in it, but never once got real lasting results and quit teaching several times but even while on active duty, I often taught tennis for the MWR program twenty hours a week every warm weather period, such as in Guam, where I spent two years on a tropical island. I watched 20 million people quit the game and I searched for the Holy Grail. I advocate MTM because for years on this forum, I watched nary a single word or idea ever mentioned that MTM might offer a solution. I never hear some very fine coaches who I admire on this site mention to play by feel, to hit up and across the ball, to trust their instincts and clear the mind by focusing on the finish and letting it shape the shot, things that I know are very effective tools.


    BB, you think I link to Oscar's site? Check out my www.moderntenniscoaches.com website and tell me where you find a link to Oscar's site. Never once do I have one. I do have a link to mommydaddyandmetennis.com, because I worked with Susan Nardi for six months in SoCal and think she is the best I've ever seen at getting tiny tots to hit. We get players to rally in two hours or less regularly almost every single time, at least I do and most coaches. They look very efficient.

    The on court debate I mentioned will happen at some point. We are looking for someone to sponsor it. Oscar claims the Quickstart being taught is based on incorrect technique and will soon publish his reasons why and the USTA will have every chance to challenge his claims. Let's see if they take the challenge. Oscar is 70 and still plays a mean tennis game and is in great shape.

    FYI, Oscar will be in SoCal doing a clinic at the Jack Kramer Tennis Club in Palos Verdes area (I think it's Rolling Hills, California near Los Angeles) with Wayne Bryan and Tracy Austin on Nov 14th, a Saturday to benefit Multiple Sclerosis. He will also be doing clinics in Newport Beach area the weekend of Nov 21 and 22 if anyone on here wants to see him in action.

    I just don't promote Oscar, but his ideas deserve a public hearing and until I came on here, he was dismissed and discounted unjustly, so I have no problem defending his teachings. I have never known him to claim a falsehood in the five years I have known him, though I might do some things differently, and I have made many mistakes thinking this method was for everyone. I have only insisted it's worth taking a look at and offer a free ebook with video analysis to anyone who wants to test the data. How am I making money with that? I shouldn't even have to defend this method. But I am determined and gratified by the many who have been open and actually discovered these very simplistic ideas actually have merit and help their games. I even send my own players out of my nest for their next progressions to other more prominent coaches and academies. I just remind them to test the data on court themselves when they hear the ever pervasive contradictory data that will be offered to them. If they find something better than find, feel and finish as their base fundamentals (I teach those are the three most important fundamentals), then more power to them. It's what works that matters. MTM is not for everyone. I interviewed Pete Fischer extensively about how he raised and taught Sampras, always having the father involved, having to fight with Landsdorp, but Lansdorp was great at pushing Sampras, according to Fischer, and Fischer, who also raised Amanda Stephenson into one of hardest hitters in women's tennis, never once heard of Oscar Wegner until he started coaching Vince Spadea in his thirties.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
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  15. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    To Cindysphinx: The lady in this video was my student for six months in California in 2007. She started playing tennis for the first time at 49 and then got Oscar's videos seven years later and after six years at 3.0, then got bumped to 3.5 after going 9 and 0. She then contacted me when she heard Oscar and I were doing clinics in Costa Mesa. She was totally trained to turn step and hit by a USPTA P1 during her six years prior to MTM. She hired me to coach her and her USA tennis team and in just two months I took her (in her mid fifties) and her USTA team to the sectionals, and several of those women were very overweight, but I taught them to simplify things, just find, feel, and finish, and then they actually won their first round at the Sectionals against a team with far superior athletes as they gave it their all and stayed in the zone. It was very difficult to break her old habits, but you see the results. Not bad for woman 57 and a half and she can rip the ball even better since this video is a while back. She is ready to jump to 4.0. She swears by MTM totally.

    And I don't get one cent for anyone ordering videos off Oscar's website. His sales a few years ago approached a quarter million a year, which is why he charges so little for eight DVDs (ten actual titles) and a recent book that is praised by the likes of Guga Kuerten among others in public statements. He has done well despite the blackout of coverage in the USA and relies on word of mouth and his proven results. Ask him what his goal for the USA? 55 million players. We have a long way to go. Why that number I asked? His reply: "Because 54 million people bowl and that is an insult to a sport that if taught simply and properly should be more popular than bowling."
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
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  16. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    Wow! This is a little "off subject", maybe my video is not that clear, but she looks GREAT for her age!!! I thought that she was in her 30's at the most! Just goes to prove there's life after 45!!!
     
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  17. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It's Cali for you, eh!
    and good hands on those low volleys.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
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  18. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    LOL, I'm back East in Virginia Beach, but we have plenty of "talent" here as well. ;) Before I get my ass kicked by my wife, I still will say that I was surprised to find out that that lady was 50+. :)
     
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  19. majordude

    majordude Rookie

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    Can you get me in or a discount at least? :wink: Sunday's best. :)
     
    #69
  20. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Gee, I go to work and the place goes nuts with posts. Reading. . . .

    -SF
     
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  21. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    So did I. She looks great for her age and in general.

    -SF
     
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  22. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    This is the lame stuff that you say. Give me a break. There are so many players that don't learn with your garbage it isn't even funny and play excellent tennis. And believe me, just because they don't learn from "Oscar" does not mean they will fail in tennis or lose interest. There were many variables when tennis lost its popularity in the 70's. To say it is simply the coaches faults is just a flat out joke.

    What you are also saying is if I don't teach your way, than I am in the same boat as stifling players in this game. You are guilty of sayin John Yandell and a whole slew of excellent coaches are the culprits.

    Your arrogance is something I will always counter. How dare you blame others for the popularity or lack of in this sport on coaches that have gone before you. how dare you blame them when much of the foundations that you have even in your own intruction is based on solid research THAT YOU DID NOT PERFORM!

    Yet, when I have to come in here and further explain what you can't communicate, you are all in aggrement with me? Did you agree that you have to extend through the ball no matter what swing pattern you use? What about the smile pattern for the onehanded backhand.

    What people fail to see is the only real stroke you promote as "modern" is the forehand. However, even that has been shown to not be modern! Volleys, backhands, and all other strokes that you teach all come from fundamentals that OTHER coaches found, not you.

    If we are so far out there and have been deterimental to tennis society, then why would you agree with me when I advise here? Why would you jump in to "secure" what I say to players? Are you that arrogant to think you should step in? Like I need you to do that? How many times have I had to reexplain what you have tried to say and have had to add clarification to your advice?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
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  23. tennis angel

    tennis angel Guest

    Not just Another Way

    Instead of arguing about and attacking Oscar ad naseum on the internet, why not just go on the court and test out his method for yourselves? Try it and if you find it works then continue with it; if it doesn't feel better to you than you're currrent style then drop it. I personally have never met anyone who has tried it and not been dumbfounded by the phenomenal results, but you may be the first to fail to improve with it.

    If any of you live in Southern California you can meet Oscar in person and learn firsthand from him on court this month. Contact me for details if you're interested.
     
    #73
  24. rxs10is

    rxs10is New User

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    5263, teachestennis, tennis angel, and other MTM enthusiasts - please ingore the attacks and continue posting. It's great you guys are so polite, but please, do not even mention the bungling blunderbuss in your responses, or acknowledge his postings. If you think you are going to win him over with niceness, you are mistaken. He is too twisted for that. And for what? The guy is an unknown nobody, afraid to show his face, and a conceited a-hole at that. Let him yell and scream and throw his tantrums, who cares. Just keep posting the good stuff, fellas.

    Ray
     
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  25. majordude

    majordude Rookie

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    Hamblame...
     
    #75
  26. tennis angel

    tennis angel Guest

    Puede escribirme desde mi website. Escribme ahora mismo y te llamare por telefono con la informacion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2009
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  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It's good to see more recognize his ways, reading it in posts like yours and emails we get from others who don't post here (and some who do) on this due to his bully tactics on this board. What is funny is to watch him try to explain how he already has this modern stuff in his approach as he butchers it with his long drawn out descriptions, each documenting his false data.
    And how he discusses MTM as though he were an expert, but then admits never reading his books or watching the vids. Just shows how he is quick to discuss things based on very limited knowledge of the subject.

    I still have the post saved he made about how it was about winning for him (not truth) and how he would discredit valid info just to try be considered correct. How would he have any credibility after that?

    But yes, we will try not to over react to his antics and keep providing the MTM options open for those who want to use it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2009
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  28. tennis angel

    tennis angel Guest

    #78
  29. tennis angel

    tennis angel Guest

    #79
  30. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    5263,

    Genuine question here. How and why is it impossible to hit up and accross the ball,(hence, the emphasis on open stance) or add varying degrees of hand and arm rotation from a neutral stance. Surely, you've seen literally thousands of examples of neutral stance hitting, with full wiper action.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2009
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  31. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Looks like someone's still crying themselves to sleep knowing that not everyone has a picture of Oscar tucked under their pillow.
     
    #81
  32. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    A general observation that may be applicable here:

    ANY and EVERY action that is taught through instruction/education has multiple methods. One method does not fit every person's individual attributes, capacity, or style. The most astute instructor/educator has an open mind and incorporates what works best for a given situation rather than adhere to any strict ideology.
     
    #82
  33. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Oh my goodness isn't that what BB has been saying the whole time?!
     
    #83
  34. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    I agree in that there is no one teaching style that applies one hundred percent across the board. I assure you we MTM coaches all have our own styles, but we are careful to teach what we feel is the optimal biomechanical technique. In sports, there are certain biomechancal principles that apply across the board. In a golf swing, to compete on the pro tour, you must have a certain muscle memory that regardless of how you get there, the club head must be square or close to square at impact.

    In tennis, the evidence is substantial that there is one optimal technique used by all players who dominate the game. I coached without MTM for 25 years and did okay at various times at least from my students and the coaches who hired me, especially during four years in the 1980s in Moreno Valley where I was a disciple of Vic Braden.

    It is the power of simplicity in tennis instruction that MTM seeks to promote. Oscar essentiallyy only teaches one mechanic, from the ball to the shoulder, emphasizing a WW up and across swing using the formula of acceleration to "deflect" the ball rather than emphasize hitting through the target line. He teaches a "one inch" volley to keep the stroke short as possible, allowing maximum feel and control with minimum effort. It's interesting that even BB noted that the great forehands of Newcombe, Laver, and Okker were all according to these principles of using WWs before the word ever came into tennis lexicon. Yet today, you have coaches all trying to come up with their own really technical sounding explanations for what they claim we must do in order to hit a tennis ball.

    I wrote a commentary and submitted several articles using Russia as an example of how they teach one techniques. In Russia, all coaches essentially teach the same way and they all emphasize and I quote the great Larisa P who died last month (techneek ees everything). Russian coaches are trained in biomechanics. If you read the NY Times article by Daniel Coyle in my commentary, you might see why the importance of teaching muscle memory correctly from the first strokes, therefore the importance of teaching a windshield wiper from a child's first strokes and eliminating false progressions such as turn the feet sideways, take the racket back early, and then hit through the target line as the USTA advocates in their 2009 Quickstart manual.

    Here is the link to How to Grow A Super Athlete: The Spartak Academy in Russia.
    http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18

    I provide other evidence of how the kids swing from their first strokes. They are being shouted at with words like "feel" and "finish more thoroughly" and they are ages 4-7, and I don't hear those words being taught in Quickstart classes I've seen except the coaches who use MTM tenets.

    I have stated elsewhere the Law of Primacy and other educations laws that essentially state you cannot teach a person anything but the correct data from their first impression without causing muscle memory that will have to be unlearned. I will be publishing a book in the next year dealing with this issue is their one optimal technique? When I present at USPTA conferences I will advocate that we look at this important issue of should we all be teaching one biomechanical technique like they do in other countries that dominate the rankings. If current research on "myelin" sheathing building correct muscle memory has validity (and all recent research is pointing in the same direction regardless of tennis or other fields), this will provide evidence that all children must be taught the same Windshield wiper from stroke 1 in order to eventually grow the game and build a large enough foundation to provide top ranked players. After all, Spartak has one indoor court, frozen outside for six months of the year, takes in normal kids off the street, not genetic mutants, and has produced more top twenty players since 2000 than the entire USA. We need to see what they are doing. Look at my articles and the pics carefully.
     
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  35. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    Hi Tennisteaches,

    I went to the site
    http://www.tennisteacher.org/Lucy/Video_Clips.html

    to try to get a better sense of Oscar's teachings.
    Are there any videos with him or someone trained in Oscar's dogmas
    that is with a more advanced player that is not a young kid?
    youtube or anywhere easily found?

    Also, what influence did Oscar have with Venus and Serena? In the
    link above they are listed as pros that were influenced by Oscar.
    I'm curious what aspects of their games/strokes Oscar had an influence on.

    Earlier someone asked for a link on the serve. Are there any sample videos
    on it (using Oscar's methods? for a more advanced player and
    not a beginner just learning to feel and hit the ball.)
     
    #85
  36. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    You guys really need to look at this Troll's post history. (it's a riot at how foolish he makes himself look)

    He has no credibility whatsoever, just a random assortment of useless comments and unnecessary insults.

    A good tennis pro that's focused on his students and knows people and not just whatever their mantra is, would realize that and stay away.
     
    #86
  37. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    That is exactly right. The instruction for MTM is not the issue. It is the mantra behind it that implies it is the solution to American tennis. It is a bunch of hogwash. There are good methods and coaches out there that do not use MTM nor care too. MTM must be built on a sound foundation in order for it to be viable. This is also true with any other method of teaching tennis. This foundation is shared and common knowledge.

    It is fine for anyone to learn through MTM, no problem with that from me at all. However, when the false marketing comes in, the bashing of coaches and labelling them old if they dont teach MTM and people who don't get it, that is when I speak up.

    If offensiveness hurts people around here, maybe you ought to consider the other side of the coin when MTM followers begin attacking or mentioning the USPTA and other organizations in a false light. That is offensive to us!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    #87
  38. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    It started the day he wanted a rating and I rated him lower than his ego would allow. Sorry! :) Now, it is just personal attacks with no substance.
     
    #88
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Oh really?
    I took your advice and read his mere 14 posts on here ( hardly a big trolling history)

    He only made 2-4 upbeat posts before he ran afoul with the self appointed moderator of threads ( which is pretty normal it seems unless you want to pander to him). What is a riot is watching so many wet themselves when this bully has something to say.
    At least this guy stands up to him and lets him know what he thinks of his antics.
     
    #89
  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    sure, you can go to the foul line and shoot your free throws granny style.
    And when you make some big shots in big games, you will get some respect for it.
     
    #90
  41. rxs10is

    rxs10is New User

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    Teachestennis, could you please send the link to Oscar's ebook to me at rxs10is@gmail.com? Thanks in advance.

    Ray
     
    #91
  42. rxs10is

    rxs10is New User

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    Thank you 5263. I am not going to bother responding to these jerks. Life is too short for that.

    Ray
     
    #92
  43. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Well that just proves you are pretty unaware of just what bullying or being civil or uncivil is.

    If you two actually gave helpful advice (YOUR ADVICE) without all the name dropping and promotions of MTM, and going into 500 word essays on tennis history everytime someone asked for some simple advice, Im sure BB wouldnt go swooping in everytime you open your mouths.

    Maybe Oscar is a great guy and nobody is debating that his work isnt helpful in some way to some people if they have connected with it.

    But you guys are making yourselves look like fools to anyone who actually puts any thought into it.

    1) By aligning yourself now with this guy who clearly is someone who cant even handle himself or some simple criticism. Even TT has acknowledged that BB gives great advise on here, despite what you think of him in these silly MTM arguments.

    2) In this OP, it actually makes MTM look BAD!!!! Dont you realize that? Are you really that stuck in whatever your mantra is that it's not that obvious to you?

    The guy's basically going into great lengths to demonstrate how he doesnt really want to do more then merely just "play tennis".

    And I wont dispute that, he made a connection and he got what he wants and that's great....

    But then he has to make the argument that it's somehow justified because "nobody is saying that it will make you a "Great" player".

    So is that what you stand behind? MTM will ONLY make you a good player, but it's not really good enough to make you a great player???

    Someone who is honest and actually wants to help would be able to correct an idea like that when they feel it's wrong, but you guys are wasting so much time just looking for confirmation that you're right and your ideas are so holy and great that you cant see it.

    It kind of sucks because you're really just making MTM look bad, you're making Oscar look bad and you're making yourselves look foolish.
     
    #93
  44. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    In post #64 above I list Oscar's relationship with Richard Williams. It was Richard who came up and hugged Oscar and thanked him for all he had done for tennis and told him his videos made so much sense he had his daughters watch them everyday. Richard even called and corrected Oscar's quote on the website when Oscar thought he had bought the videos and told Oscar he taped the TV shows that were made into the videos, which means Richard was learning from MTM in the late 1992 time frame more than likely, just before he left Macci's in January of 1993 whereupon he built two clay courts in his backyard and then he hired a series of hitting hitting partners and coached the girls himself from here on out moving from court to court in a golf cart and not letting them play tournaments for the next couple years before he just threw them on tour and they suddenly took off though Venus had a few rough spots early on.

    here is a video of Oscar teaching Randy Ardenfriend, a former pro who like so many didn't make it. Oscar just called Randy up a few years ago in 2006 and then did two videos with him demonstrating how to coach a high level player. Randy, after switching to MTM, became one of the most popular pros at Pacific Palisades and last I sent a couple of my inquiries to him for lessons, all three complained that at Long Boat Key in Sarasota Randy has a three month waiting list to get lessons with.

    http://www.tennisonevideonetwork.com...8d138f2b4fdd6f

    Guga Kuerten was coached by Oscar from age 6 to 14 before Passos got a sponsorship and took him into the pros. Guga is a perfect model of how Oscar teaches, lifting up, pulling back, very free flowing, extremely efficient in his swing even with a huge backswing, waiting and stalking the ball until it's on the ground or very close before his left hand lets go of the racket (like we teach in MTM). Guga's one hander was maybe one of the most beautiful of all time, the guy just looked like he was laughing on the court the whole time, and even before I met Oscar, I thought Guga the most amazing style I had ever seen, always moving off his one handed BH with such tremendous topspin, and then Oscar showed me how he taught Guga, and I have been able to teach this BH style effectively and one of the two 6.0 players I developed (one from his first groundstrokes) looks very much like Guga.

    Oscar also started Vince Spadea Jr as a six year old overweight kid and then coached him and his two USTA champion sisters in high school as Vince Spadea Senior prepared Vince Jr. for the pros.

    Oscar has never really coached players by choice, instead he has focused on reforming tennis instruction by working with coaches. He has told me there were only a couple players he regrets not being able to coach given he has so many offers few would believe, including an 8 year old Jennifer Capriati's father having Oscar take a look to discuss coaching her as Jimmy Evert could only coach Jennifer three times a week and had other commitments. Stefano was looking for a full time coach even at that age, but Oscar was going back to Brazil to spend the next couple years and thus could not do it. Oscar will tell you his players are all over the world, hitting up and across the ball from their first strokes given he was the first prominent coach to teach what is now accepted as mainstream "modern tennis."

    All I can tell you is I've been on court with Oscar an entire summer, most of another summer, and spent countless weeks watching him coach all level players. I've watched him coach high level players, satellite tour players, watched him turn down three thousand to coach a Japanese satellite tour player from a mother who couldn't believe what Oscar did in a lesson with her daughter playing the future's tour. It's interesting that Bjorn Borg sure praised him as an amazing coach given Borg was an elite athlete and had tried many coaches without success before Oscar. How many coaches would be a guest of Tony Roche's and be invited to meet with Roger Federer and Mirka in Europe as was Oscar. Oscar just prior to meeting his old friend Tony Roche had just attended the Mallorca Federer Nadal hybrid court match and revisited his old friends at Sanchez-Casal, where Oscar first worked with many of their coaches when they were players and young coaches learning his system when Oscar was a National Coach for Spain in the 1970s.

    Even I am tired of defending the guy, all the emphasis should be on helping players with an alternative method that seems to work for a large portion of those who try it and feel freed up by his minimalist emphasis. I will not, however, let people just make false accusations about him or his method as we are want to help grow tennis, especially given we can really help high school and Parks coaches in a very effective way that will have lasting impact for them and their players. But all this attack and my having to clear up the truth should at least help people understand that Oscar Wegner is one of the nicest guys in tennis but a force worth reckoning with if you want to play your best tennis. I read more of other's coaches writings than I do from him, and I find a lot I can use, but I use MTM tenets to be careful what I choose to teach with biomechanically. And I have never badmouthed BB or Johnny Yandell claiming they were responsible for the dearth of USA tennis players. I credit Yandell with one of the top ten greatest developments in coaching history. I read Yandell regularly still and very much like his recent stuff especially.

    I believe the blame of tennis being too difficult is owed to poor biomechanical technique taught by the teaching organizations in the past, but that is changing, thank goodness. Would it have changed if Oscar had not written his controversial 1989 book teaching to "touch" the ball, not hit it it, and then swing up and across the ball by bending of the arm?

    Who knows, but I suspect we would have two players in the top 100 more than likely, lol. American's are stubborn when it comes to change in tennis. Maybe that is why Oscar felt like he had to promote his stuff so intensely. We've come a long way, not let's just make it simple and easy to progress for everyone.

    I'll look for more clips of Oscar's teaching. Hope you saw the 57 year old lady who was my student above. That is Oscar giving her a private lesson she wanted to film as she was proud of how far she had come after being a 3.0 for six years until she got the videos and then I taught her for six months.
     
    #94
  45. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    The link above didn't work. Can i find the video from going to the
    tennisonevideonetwork? You can just tell me what to click on.

    The videos don't have to be of oscar teaching. Just someone who you
    think is a good example of someone who teaches oscar's methods
    (teaching an advanced player)
     
    #95
  46. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Tennisone has some of Oscar's stuff. Again - as I repeated before its not anything particularly special, IMHO. People here are buying into the holy grail of Oscar.

    He is pretty slick - you can't even buy it on Amazon probably because then they couldn't control any average reviews that would trickle in. There are numerous tennis videos out there many of which can be helpful. Before I incur the wrath of the wegnerites there is nothing wrong with his instruction for the most part.

    You can find some on youtube if your really interested.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK4XFVoRsmM

    Honestly the videos I have seen are more beginner oriented.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVH3UAWTnKE

    Can you argue with such videos - no. Are they anything different then you could find on the web or from other instructors? Not from what I have seen. YMMV.

    Here is some anti-wegner style instruction - its far more robotic and regimented. But it would work fine..



    Many instructors have slightly different approaches but I think all of them are trying to get players to the same places. Its the imagery and emphasis that varies the most.

    Here is some "anti-wegner" type of instruction. Its a totally different approach for a beginner but my gut feeling is that it would work as well if not better then Wegners style..

    http://www.playsportstv.com/tennis/...2#tennis-forehand_gilad-bloom-forehand-part-1

    Obviously the feet thing is just for emphasis...IMHO.

    There are lots of ways to skin a cat..
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    #96
  47. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    You are exactly right! He never did!

    You are once again exaggerating. You are making this more than it is.

    It is well known that at the age of 4, Richards collected everything he could find on tennis (videos and books) to educate his girls in tennis. The motivation to do this was for him to help his family get out of Compton, CA to have a better life.

    The books and videos Richards collected were from various coaches including Vic Braden's books and videos.

    History of Serena Williams
    - By age 4 1/2, the Serena Williams competed in her first tournament. By all accounts, Serena won 46 of 49 junior USTA tournaments and was ranked #1 in the under ten age group nationally in 1990. She was about age 9 by this time.

    - 1991, parents withdrew the sisters from competition to focus on their studies.

    - Around the same time Richard Williams asked Rick Macci, a well known tennis coach from Florida to travel to California to see his daughters playing. Macci had previously coached Mary Pierce and Jennifer Capriati, and immediately suggested the family move to Florida so Serena and Venus could attend his tennis academy.

    - By this time Serena and Venus had earned enough in endorsements to allow the family to buy a home in Palm Beach Garden close to Macci’s academy.

    - From 1991 till 1995 Serena Williams undertook intensive training with Macci, developing her style of play and learning about game strategy.

    - In 1995 the Williams family parted ways from Rick Macci with Richard Williams taking on responsibility for the continuing coaching of both Serena, and her sister Venus.

    - In the same year Serena turned pro and played her first professional game at the age of 14 in the Bell Challenge, Quebec City.

    - Turning pro at 14, two years younger than the WTA allowed for professional players meant that Serena was only able to play in non-WTA events, yet despite lack of contact with other WTA players Serena became known once again for being a formidable player. In 1997, shortly after her 16th birthday, Serena joined the WTA pro tour. Her first major wins came at the Ameritech Cup in Chicago where Serena beat seventh ranked Mary Pierce in the second round, followed by fourth ranked Monica Seles in the quarterfinals, and finally falling to Lyndsey Davenport in the semis.The girls got full scholarships including room and board in return for portion of future earnings. Richard fired Macci after he got a million dollar sponsorship from Reebok and Macci threatened to sue but settled out of court.

    THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT OSCAR NOR WILL THERE EVER BE. MACCI'S ACADEMY BUILT THE WILLIAMS SISTERS AND GETS CREDIT FOR THEIR SUCCESS. NONE OF THE CREDIT GOES TO OSCAR, NOT ONE THING. OTHERWISE, SINCE BRADEN WAS INVOLVED IN THE EARLY DEVELOPMENT YEARS, MORE CREDIT WOULD GO TO BRADEN THAN OSCAR COULD EVER DREAM OF.

    COLLECTING PLAYERS BECAUSE THEY GLANCED AT YOUR MTM STUFF IS REALLY BAD. COME ON MAN. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG. GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE AND IT IS NOT DUE TO OSCAR.

    And conicidentally a hallmark of Oscar's teaching? Are you serious? Well, the open stance was long taught at many academies and training facilities as well as in grass-roots coaching!

    And do you think Richards was only looking at Wegner's stuff? of course he wasn't!!! He was simply gathering many perspectives and developing his own! Otherwise, you would see a heck of a lot more endorsements for Oscars methods from the Williams Sisters. However, they can't give Oscar credit for anything because the foundation for their game was already developed.

    Further, considering your slandering of other coaches, the Williams Sisters did pretty darn good without Oscar's MTM methods.

    You are providing an unbalanced and borderline false information and implying that Macci never taught the William's sister when other evidence states otherwise. Intensive training is not always with the Coach who is named for their academy. They have other coaches with specialties and will be involved in a players development plan.

    You are once again twisting things towards Oscar again and this is exactly what I will continually debate you on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    #97
  48. volusiano

    volusiano Hall of Fame

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    I think you totally missed the point. The argument is not about the MTM instruction (whether good or bad or better or whatever, who cares?). The argument is about the method of MTM marketing which seems to throw everything else under the bus and claim the glory for everything.

    And how are you so sure that MTM will improve my game when you don't even know what my game is like? Why do you assume that my game is not playing by feel already? I've been playing by feel naturally since day 1 already without needing MTM to teach me that. If you need MTM to teach you that, good for you. But why try to shove it down my throat?

    You know, in the beginning, with a few first posts, MTM actually intrigued my curiosity. But after so much heavy pushing for it by now, the propaganda actually kinda turned me off and it just dampened my curiosity. Well, I actually went on the website to download what I thought was an instructional demo, but I found it to be mostly an infomercial video, so it turned me off even more. So now I'm not even interested in learning about MTM anymore. I know, I know, it's my loss and I'm going to miss out on the best thing since sliced bread and so on. That's ok, I still enjoy playing tennis just the same, thank you very much.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    #98
  49. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    ^^^ the link tennisteaches posted implied that the williams sisters
    learned their game at an early age from oscar b/c the photo shows
    then when they were little.

    I still want to see an instruction video with advanced players
    being taught /coached with Oscar's method though. Haven't seen
    any yet. I just want to see how it would be applied. When it
    comes to tennis instruction, I'm always curious to see what people
    are using and learning.
     
    #99
  50. pondus

    pondus Rookie

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    Oscar Wegner claims that his method is "Scientifically Proven". By this, he seems to be referring to a student who did a 1st year MIT science project on his method, and he (the student) speaks about it in the video, but no further details or references are provided.

    If calling this "scientifically proven" is not far fetched marketing, I'm not sure what is.
     
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