Myth or Reality? Federer plays with a low swingweight

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by travlerajm, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,416
    The debate over Federer's true specs has waged on this forum for a long time.

    As we all know, forum member Greg Raven has acquired one of Fed's frames. He has not only measured its specs, but also made an admirable effort to do playtest comparisons against other similar Wilson frames. His conclusion was that Federer's racquet has virtually identical specs to the nSix-One Tour 90.

    For some people, this settled the debate. I am not one of those people.

    I believe that Greg Raven's racquet is authentic. However, I also believe that the specs of the racquet in Mr. Raven's possession are very different than the specs of the racquet Federer actually uses on the court. Specifically, I believe that Federer has roughly 12g of lead stashed under his bumper, and that the lead was removed before it was given away. The extra lead would bump his swingweight up by 30 or 40 kg-cm^2.

    Why do I believe this? If you study Federer's strokes carefully, and the way the ball responds off his strings, it becomes apparent that his swingweight is much higher than the 330 that Mr. Raven measured. This is most easily observed on volleys and returns. Also, the spin efficiency of his racquet (massive spin without a steep uppercut swingpath) is not achievable with such a low swingweight.

    As always, I expect many of you to disagree with me.
    It may be a long time before we have a definitive answer, since it is in Federer's best interest to maintain secrecy of his exact specs (just as Roddick does). But I believe that in the end, when Fed is retired and his true specs are revealed, everyone will ultimately see what I'm talking about.
     
    #1
  2. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,649
    As quoted on Roger Federer's website, his rackets have different amounts of lead weights fixed inside, depending upon which surface he's playing on. So who's to say there isn't lead added to his handle, or anywhere else for that matter?

    Do you even know how much his racket actually weighs? :confused:

    The reality is his racket suits him best. (Hmm, just because a pro bowler uses a 16lbs ball doesn't mean I'm going to go out and get the exact same weight and finger tip size and layout as him.)
     
    #2
  3. hoosierbr

    hoosierbr Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,837
    This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth but I don't think Federer's actual specs are very relevant to most of us rec players. Many folks tried to set their racquets up just like Sampras did and found, big surprise, that it was way too demanding for them day in and day out. I would imagine that given Federer's headsize is either 88 or 90 if you add the static weight and swingweight, whatever it is, it would be pretty unplayable for most of us. So, in the end, what does it really matter?

    As most pros use paintjobbed racquets anyway the idea of playing an exact copy of a pro's stick is pretty difficult to achieve.
     
    #3
  4. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    613
    I don't believe you can tell the swingweight of a racquet by watching the way the ball responds off his strings.
     
    #4
  5. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,649
    I'm sure travlerajm knows that what he says is open for interpretation, so I'm sure he figures he can say things like that.
     
    #5
  6. Ripper

    Ripper Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,652
    Location:
    "Where Moth & Rust Destroy"
    Then, what Raven needs to do is check, very closely, for evidence that lead tape had been placed there; adhesive residue, paint peeling, etc.
     
    #6
  7. Swissv2

    Swissv2 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,491
    Location:
    Tennis Courts!
    Greg had pictures of those pieces of lead. But what is not able to be shown is the lead inside the frame, unless one breaks the racquet open to find out.
     
    #7
  8. Ripper

    Ripper Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,652
    Location:
    "Where Moth & Rust Destroy"
    Lead inside the frame? Silicone, in any case. However, the issue here is not why the raquet is so heavy, but quite the contrary, why is it so light.
     
    #8
  9. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827
    IMO the Roger setup does not have a swing weight same as other pros.

    I do believe that Roger's SW (depending on surface) is 330-340 and no more

    The extra spin Roger gets is from #1 technique #2 String setup (and this plays a large part) #3 The weighting and low SW.

    Roger does not have a very high average first serve, and is very rare that he gets up into the 30's


    Finaly if Roger had a SW that was that high he would not be able to make the defensive shots that he does and is know for and turning them into offensive shots.

    My racket handles more solidly than any other racket I have ever used, especialy at the net no matter how hard it is hit or how much spin, it just eats it up. I have tried 15 different players rackets many of which aren't made any more, nothing is like PS setup.

    I used to be a live by the prestige die by the prestige kinda guy, but I can't lie to myself, the PS setup is just plain superior for this style of play, not all but yes this style.
     
    #9
  10. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,468
    I believe what Greg Raven has is a racquet that was made by Wilson for Federer but that Federer never actually played with the racquet. It was sent directly from Wilson to the USRSA. I don't think Federer ever touched it. Thus, it was likely never customized to exactly what Federer plays with in his matches.
     
    #10
  11. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,480
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Does anyone know the date of Roger's answer? (...his rackets have different amounts of lead weights fixed inside, depending upon which surface he's playing on.) If I recall correctly, when he used the PS Tour 90 he had lead on the inside throat. Could this be what is referred to, his set up on the PS Tour 90?
     
    #11
  12. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827
    Has any stringer ever weighted and measured his racket? After reading about Greg's James Blake racket and Richie's James Blake racket it sounds that limited edt rackets are sold that aren't used by said player and there fore never weighted up like that.

    IMO you only know exactly what is what when either A) you string it and weight it youself and see said player playing with that racket or B) you recover broken racket from trash lol


    I would like to hear theories of how Rogers racket is setup, I am totally open minded, with this new information it has really opend my eyes
     
    #12
  13. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,649
    But not everything you read is true. You have to remember to break each statement down, and figure out its reliability and source.
     
    #13
  14. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    PS 85. There you go.
     
    #14
  15. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    I did that with my racket and it made it more stable for ground strokes but made serves more difficult and less feel
     
    #15
  16. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,157
    All of this speculation on Roger's exact setup is fun and all, but until anyone has any real evidence it seems like wasted typing to me. Eventually Roger is going to get old and some young guy is going to start beating him and take over his number 1 spot. Then everyone's going to be talking about that new guys racquet. I can pretty much guarantee he won't be playing with the setup that Roger uses. Then this thread has to start all over again. :p
     
    #16
  17. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,480
    Location:
    Arkansas
    You don’t have to participate, you know. I have never found a good discussion to be a waste.
     
    #17
  18. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    as usual you are missing the point, we discuse other peoples rackets as well.

    In general pro players have different setups for a reason however they all have something in comon

    This is for fun and nothing else, and has nothing to do with what you are saying, but thanks anways
     
    #18
  19. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    Yea no S***, like I said it is interesting and lets hear some ideas and theories, especially in the presence of the new informations.
     
    #19
  20. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,649
    You're just too polite. You're making me blush. :rolleyes:
     
    #20
  21. MasterTS

    MasterTS Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,124
    The real question!

    What happen to Greg Raven?

    I think it was too much he had a Federer racquet in posession so he had to disappear for concerns of his and familys' health.
     
    #21
  22. haerdalis

    haerdalis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,597
    Location:
    Lund, Sweden
    I think Federers forehand looked a bit different when he played with the ps 85. He whips through the ball more today. Perhaps it is not because of a different racquet but just better/different technique, I dont know. But the forehand is different.
     
    #22
  23. Greg Raven

    Greg Raven Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    618
    Location:
    Apple Valley, CA
    I'm still here. I wasn't going to participate, because I've given my opinion about Federer's racquet many times on TTW, and I have a webpage or two with actual measurements, which I set up so I don't have to repeat myself over and over.
     
    #23
  24. AJK1

    AJK1 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,219
    Good on you Greg, i can't believe that even when someone has a genuine Fed racquet such as yourself, people still deny or won't believe stuff about it. Truly astonishing! People need to get a life! Tech heads are a bore!
     
    #24
  25. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    Nothing astonishing here at all, the thing is that greg alos has a JB HM racket. The stange thing is that his JB racket does not come out to what stringers say it should Greg said it is around 12.5 stringers said it is around 13.4oz.

    So this shows a possibility that these rackets are either 1)being sold with out mods as said racket was never modded for said pro 2)said racket has been stripped of lead that is not visable or 3)the official stringing information is in some shape or form in correct.

    Further more we know for an absolute fact that Tommy Haas racket is 13.5oz+ and it would be very strange for James Blake to use a racket that is even lighter than TH who is not known for such huge hits as JB.

    So we see for a fact that things simply don't add up and that it is possbile roger uses as higher SW
     
    #25
  26. AJK1

    AJK1 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,219
    My point exactly:rolleyes:
     
    #26
  27. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,304
    I always thought Federer had his racquets from Wilson sent to Nate Ferguson to mold the grip palette and add lead / balance specs like he did with Sampras racquets. Doesn't TW past article about Priority 1 mention that? I don't remember and don't feel like looking it up LOL.

    Anyways, Greg still have the most definitive answer on Fed's actual racquet and Fed is known to change the weight / balance depending on surface / player / conditions like many other pros do.
     
    #27
  28. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827
    Very interesting I never have really looked into this here more info


    So that is 13.1oz ,blance around 12pt HL string tensions string 48m 44X

    That is really funny as that is simular to my racket, I did not do that on purpose as I have never seen these specs LOL


    Here is more

     
    #28
  29. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827
    #29
  30. ART ART

    ART ART Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    644
    The funny this goes... in the Masters-Madrid, the specs are really really funny... the lightest racket weights with overgrip and with strings, 327grams, and it's from Moya.
    I'm not there, but I got a message from a friend at Madrid, with some funny stuff about the Players, like this one: Safin whant to string is rackets, because he says he can string with much better accurancy than other people that don't play at that level. This is true, but when he starts the first one, he broke the string in 3 minutes... and letthe work to be done by the local stringers... 28/26kilos.
     
    #30
  31. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827
    Now this is very interesting as this info is from Roger's site, he says that his racket starts out at 12.4oz before adding grip, weights, power pads ect ect


     
    #31
  32. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827
    here is a really really old one LOL

     
    #32
  33. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    why do you have two user accounts?
     
    #33
  34. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,416
    I think the specs posted by ANIMAL are a lot more believable.
    But a little more accuracy in the measurements of the balance and swingweight would have helped. I would guess that the balance is more like 4 or 5 pts HL if the mass is indeed 357g.
     
    #34
  35. ART ART

    ART ART Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    644
    jackson vile: maybe I was right... maybe... ;)
     
    #35
  36. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    Guys I really don't know, I think the most confusing thing is that Roger changes things a lot, you see how much me changes string tension LOL

    IMO it would not be 4-5pt HL and especially not even, the thing is that this is the SW we "want" to believe but then the balance makes no sense at allLOL

    I personally believe what ART is saying, it makes more sense to me watching Roger serve ect, the thing is I know what that racket swings like ect because that is what I play with.

    If Roger was using SW2 then his serve would look at lot better, not so light and relaxed and the serves would be much faster more often.

    Also with his string tensions so so low it makes more sense.

    ART what is his SW? you did not mention that.
     
    #36
  37. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    Here is one of your posts

    I find it very very stange that instead of fallowing whatyou had said 374g 31.cm that you did something different?

    That is .5oz that you put into the the racket at 14grams, 12.91oz statict weight, 8pt head light, You put some in the throat also? I'm guess your SW is around ~355

    Are you 2hbh or 1hbh?

    Could you list all Rogers static weight, blance, and SW you have ever measured?
     
    #37
  38. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,304
    Concerning Roger's old tour 90, wasn't Roger's only slam on that racquet or paint job just his 1st Wimbledon?

    I can definitely picture Roger changing racquet setups (thickness, headsize, weight) once again that year when he or Mirka gave Peter the pink slip and he didn't live up to expectations at the other majors that year. When things aren't working, even at the pro level, yes equipment changes are at the top of the list.

    Anyways I don't doubt that Greg has Federer's actual playing racquet, I doubt that it has been leaded to what Federer plays with which changes anyways.

    Its the never ending discussion until someone like Nate Ferguson confirms his setup I suppose.
     
    #38
  39. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,480
    Location:
    Arkansas
    In all truthfulness, do you not play with Cayman’s? Not the same racquet. I do know what you mean though.
     
    #39
  40. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    The tnt-90 is the same exact mold as the ps-85 but the SW is 325 and the static weight is 12.0oz so I have a lot of room to customize, also it is 100% graphite like the original Staff mid so there is more flex.

    I am simply saying I know how a racket with the A) setup plays as that is the racket in my sig, and I have another setup around B) the SW2 theory.

    I have not hybred between those.

    Do consider a few things, Pete used Roger's racket and was happy with it, how is that possbile if the SW is around 335? They say Roger uses the exact same racket that is offered on TW but just a bit higher SW ect, so why would they not just offer the same exact racket Roger is playing if it is so simular? Why would the stringing be different, why have the pallet length different?

    It costs way more money to make 2 different types of rackets rather than one, and Roger's is a different mold all thogether.

    Next evidence I see is that Richard Gasquet modles a lot of his game after Roger, Richard is known to use as true off the shelf LMIXL, this racket has a SW of 336, around 12.2 oz has a very simular throat to the PS85 ect, this racket was made just for Richard and IMO Richard wanted to modle his racket after Roger's.

    All the evidence IMO leans us more towards setup A) SW around 335 static around 13oz, with weight in the throat aread that we saw him with on the Paint Jobed PS 85 to look like the Tour90.

    IMO this explains his serve, and his defensive/offensive capabilities and the low tensions as there simply is not as much mass in the head.

    All players that have that much mass in the head string high with exception of some clay courters that have a relatively low static weight.

    One thing that is possbile is that when it come to clay he changes to setup B) lower statice weight, SW2. The reasoning for this is that we see all the players that do well with clay with a low static high SW.

    It is very unlikely that Roger can make one setup work that well for all surfaces as that simply does not happen conecutively like that, it is more realistic that he uses the type of setup that works best for each surface.

    And his coments confirm this, everything depends on the tournament, heck he said it even depends on the opponent he is playing against.

    This may be what is bringing all the confusion.

    I am still undecided but believe ART, but would like ART to list all Static weight, SW, Balance with in past 2 years for for all majors of Roger's racket
     
    #40
  41. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    The racket The Animal has is that racket, and as you can see it is indeed total custom, has his sig as his racket always does, but we are not understanding the balance.

    What other players in the past have had success with an even balance? One thing to note is that this racket would IMO be amazingly stable and able to take antying at all that was thrown at it.

    With The Animal info the Roger SW range would be 350-360 from what I can tell, Perhaps this is a setup c) for grass?

    Or just a past setup and as you said only used once?
     
    #41
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,062
    Roger would not like it. It is like a trade secret between him and Wilson. Wilson could be able to do it legally if they wanted, but they wouldn't want to antagonize Roger.

    Also, if Pete casually gives away that racquet during a WTT match or otherwise, people would know they obtained Roger's racquet, and that would diminish the myth.
     
    #42
  43. ART ART

    ART ART Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    644
    So, this has got even better!
    I only check Fed's racket once at Paris, the other time I could only see what was labelled on the wilson bags.
    But right now, I am not in Madrid :( but a friend of mine sent me a message with Fed's Racket specs there, with overgrip, power pads and string, so here it goes:
    Weight: 368grams, Balance: 31,2cm, Strung at 23/21 Kilos, acording to this friend of mine that work there. Sorry but don't ask me his name or function there.
    Has we can see, he changes his setup deppending the surface. This makes a lot of sence.
    Hope I can get more info.
    Regards.
     
    #43
  44. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,416
    Thanks, ART ART!

    These specs are believable. If you assume a polarized weight distribution (because his tension is low), it means that his estimated SW would be in the low 370s.
     
    #44
  45. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,480
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Balance: 31,2cm? Could someone explain to be how to convert this to points HL?
     
    #45
  46. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,304
    I have a balance board next to my stringing machine... 31.2cm is 12pts head light.
     
    #46
  47. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,304
    A strung off the shelf tour 90 with gut/ALU hybrid stringing and overgrip comes out to be 361 grams and about 9 pts head light..... Now if I were to add 10 grams to the handle area it would weigh the same as Federer's racquet and balanced at 12 pts head light. Not that I care about what exact setup Federer is using, but those numbers give credibility to Greg's posting of Federer's racquet. Just add 10 grams to the handle and voila.
     
    #47
  48. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,304
    Are you referring to the racquet mold or the handle area? Its not uncommon for racquets to be sent to racquet technicians such as Nate Ferguson etc to mold a custom handle. So far all the current pics of Federer's actual NCode and the one that was sent to Greg looks like it came off the same racquet mold as the off the shelf 6.1 Tour 90.
     
    #48
  49. pham4313

    pham4313 Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    968
    (34.4-31.4)*8/2.54 ~ 9.4 pts HL
     
    #49
  50. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    Roger's racket is 88sqin, string patter is different, and pallet is different which can not be customized to have that shape, it would have to be originally molded that way. IE you can not make a stock n6.190 into Roger's racket, end of story.

    It is just plain silly that people believe this BS, when the n90 was made by and for Roger, further more it makes no sense that they would not sell the exact same racket if it has the exact same specs, finally Roger him self said that Priority 1 customizes his rackets with different weights and Priority one confirmed this all of which I have sited the original text in the links.

    So this is not up for debate as it is confirmed 100% fact
     
    #50

Share This Page