Myth or Reality? Federer plays with a low swingweight

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by travlerajm, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    We are not sure where the weight is located and if it is indeed 9.4 that would suggest some is indeed in the handle and the rest on the nose.
     
    #51
  2. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Thank you ART, is there anyway we can get a SW measurment, also do you know what the USO and Wimb. specs are?
     
    #52
  3. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Are you sure about that? Seems too high, if all the weight was put into the head it would make it more HH, and 31.2 shows that it actually got more head light.

    Can you show your math?

    I believe that GR racket is the base racket that Roger uses, same for his JB racket.
     
    #53
  4. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    If I am going to assume that these specs by ART ART are correct (they seem very plausible), then I must also assume that the GR is NOT the base racquet. At least not without weight removed from the handle first. If you take the GR racquet and add 8 grams centered at 5.5" from the butt to reach these specs, you end up with a very crappy racquet by pro standards. And it would also be way overpowered for a pro at the low tension that Roger uses.

    But a 13-oz racquet with 31.2cm balance and 375 SW feels sweet, spinny and fluid at low tension. And it serves bombs with ease.
     
    #54
  5. FitzRoy

    FitzRoy Professional

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    When I plugged those specs into your SGPR formula, it came out to 1.19. Do you think I've copied the formula incorrectly, or will some racquets serve well despite having a low SGPR number?
     
    #55
  6. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    As stated when I posted the formula, it was only accurate up to 370 SW. At higher swingweights, there is not such a strong correlation between balance point and SGPR. One reason is that many pros with high swingweights in SW2 setups use very low tensions, so that the spin component on the groundstrokes is much higher. So these setups would feel overpowered if it weren't for the natural spin that brings groundstrokes back down into the court.

    Nonetheless, based on my own experiments, I do believe that Federer's (apparent) balance point is a point or 2 more HL than the optimum for a 13-oz racquet for serves, but perfect for groundstrokes.
     
    #56
  7. ART ART

    ART ART Semi-Pro

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    This morning Federer was with a couple of friends at the court, his rackets ware strung by the morning, and the specs are right. About sw I cannot tell you since it was not checked, but from my calcules it is around 360 to 370, another funny thing is that 2 or 3 players play with his racket but only for 5 to 10 minutes, then a guy from wilson or so, came and ask for the rackets! This was what my friend tell me, it seems that they don't want the rackets to be tested by anyone.
    If this is correct I believe that the rackets sent by wilson to Greg, saying that thoses are the real Federer's rackets, it would not be truth, maybe something similar but not the real setup that Federer is using.
    According to my friend theres a lot of secrets about his rackets and even talking with the Fed's team, they don't want anyone to know the truth.
    They just keep saying: "...that's closer to what you can get in stores...".
    Marketing is the key, not the truth about it :(
     
    #57
  8. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    The head size is up for debate since NO ONE with Roger's current setup with the NCode paint job has confirmed that it is smaller than the off the shelf NCode. So far its been nothing but urban legend about the 88 size. I haven't seen one single photo of Roger's and the off the shelf NCode that indicates one is larger than the other... its not hard to measure both.

    So basically what your saying is that Greg the Federer racquet that Greg got is a fake? Hmm, Federer didn't have much success with the original Tour 90 formula and a lot of changes took place that year before he went on that 3/4 slam run the following year.
     
    #58
  9. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    Why don't one your friends break out a caliper and measure the beam width, head size, etc and that will settle it once and for all. That doesn't take but 1 minute and no one will notice. So far all this is just adding to more mis-information on Federer's head size and beam width. Why would a racquet manufacturer develop an 88 mold and a 90 mold to introduce the same racquet... They done paint jobs of old molds to resemble ones sold but not these 88/90 claims of the tour 90.

    Really break out the calipers and just measure it.

    its just courtesy to the pro player that their racquets not be taken out to the court by technicians. What does asking for the the players racquet taken out to the courts without permission have to do with secrecy? Say you took your modded car to a shop to replace your tires, and they decided to take your car for their own performance testing.....
     
    #59
  10. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    At best he is at 12oz starting but from what we have seen it is 12.4oz. IMO I don't see how he would be getting 31.2cm but a SW of 370, also would his serve not be better?

    And then we still don't know what he uses for gras or USO.

    Finally why is he breaking the 12.5oz mark? With my 12.0oz tnt-90 I got the SW to around 390 balance ~8pts static 12.4

    With my one that I kept the original grip on and just put another grip over it to increase grip size, that one went to the specs shown in my sig with 3g lead at top of blanace point, and 1 g at the very tip.

    This racket does not serve as good as SW2 but the ground strokes and everything are just amazing especially defensive abilities.

    With his possbile setup of SW2 I would have over 0.5oz to put some where?

    Finally how is he using low tensions like that with SW2? Does he even stay in SW2?
     
    #60
  11. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    If this is true, this could only mean one thing in my opinion. This means that Federer's actual racquet indeed DOES NOT contain any HyperCarbon nor nCode. It is in fact a true PS 6.0 90. Just like the PS 6.0 85 that he grew up with but with a slightly larger head.

    Wilson doesn't want anyone else to hit with it because knowlegeable users of ProStaffs would be able to tell pretty quicky if Federer's frames contained any HyperCarbon or nCode. Wilson is guarding this secret like it was the family crown jewels.
     
    #61
  12. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    AND

    Both statements are unsupported, but the latter from breakpoint is a theory at most, in disguise as an opinion but stated as a fact. :rolleyes:

    Look, Wilson sponsors Federer with any of the many rackets he wants to use, but the public will only have a chance to see what paintjobs he's using. You absolutely will not know what Federer really uses, and not for a long time if that, as he's still in the spotlight as world #1, in the least!

    Deal with it, and accept that anything else that you have to state about what he really uses is pure speculation on your part. Wishful thinking or even a gut-feeling, still, they're all a shot in the dark to what technology Federer is truly using.
     
    #62
  13. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    My statement was also based upon this post from ART ART from another thread and other posts from knowledgeable people like it:

     
    #63
  14. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    How is it "in disguise as an opinion but stated as a fact" when in my very first sentence I clearly state that this is only "in my opinion"? :confused: :rolleyes:

     
    #64
  15. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    In reply to:


    Here's the answer:

    Now you know what I was talking about. But if you want to argue that you meant something else, then fine, it'll just show that what you really said was just an opinion stated as a fact.
     
    #65
  16. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I remember that thread about the "LEGENDARY PRO STAFF" that Federer grew up using. And as I remember, there was a lot of mixed reviews about that so-called QUOTE, and yet everything is still pure speculation.

    Sorry, but as you've stated, your opinion is still an opinion, not a fact. ;)
     
    #66
  17. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    Federer grew up with the 6.0 during the soft string faster court era.

    The courts have changed, Federer's string setup is harsher than what he used to play with. Why would he not want to soften the blows from the stiff poly's in his racquet? He doesn't play with gut and flat strokes on faster courts anymore, the feel from his strings aren't the same anymore with ALU in the crosses.... Its not hard to picture a player treating his tool as the entire package, when you change one aspect of the racquet, everything else changes also including the racquet's construction. I highly doubt Federer would still be using the 6.0's construction with ALU, even he would want to soften the impact on his body.

    So far so many people have made many claims. The only person that has bothered to make measurements is Greg and provide photos of Federer's Racquet. How difficult is it to measure racquets using a caliper?
     
    #67
  18. ART ART

    ART ART Semi-Pro

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    I don't know how can someone that is not part of wilson or Fed's support team, can have the real racket?
    I have asked Tony(Feds coach) if I can have one racket, my boss did the same question, and the answer was allways: No, we canĀ“t give you any of this rackets.
    Even in the last day they ware in Paris, my boss have asked again, and the answer was the same.
    This brings me serious thoughts about many things...
     
    #68
  19. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    I guess someone needs to track down that Miami fan that Federer gave his racquet to after his win over Nadal.
     
    #69
  20. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Is English not your primary language? Do you have issues with reading comprehension?

    When I say in the first sentence of the paragraph - "this could only mean one thing in my opinion." That means that EVERYTHING that comes afterwards in the paragraph IS MY OPINION. The "one thing" I'm referring to as being "in my opinion" is that he's "using a PS 6.0 90". That means what I'm saying is - "In my opinion, he is in fact using a PS 6.0 90." That IS NOT the same thing as saying - "The fact is he is using a PS 6.0 90" or "Fact: He is using a PS 6.0 90".

    If I said - "In my opinion, O.J. did in fact murder his wife Nicole". Does that mean it's my opinion or does that mean it's a fact? :confused:
     
    #70
  21. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Hey, you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe.

    Geez, some people are so sensitive when others even hint that they're not using the same exact racquet that Federer uses, as if their world has just shattered or something. :rolleyes:
     
    #71
  22. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But to most people, the PS 6.0 85 has a more flexible, softer, and forgiving feel than the nSix-One Tour 90.
     
    #72
  23. FitzRoy

    FitzRoy Professional

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    My experience is in total agreement with that statement. I played with the nSix-One 90 for several days, and I had not read any information about the racquet (this was before I had signed up to the forums here). I didn't even know the specs of the frame. My initial impression was a stiffer feel than the 6.0 85 when hitting the ball (I switched between them several times during the hitting sessions). That impression remained for the whole time I played with it.

    As for the larger issue in this thread, I am of the opinion that we shouldn't doubt Greg Raven's specs, especially given the fact that we use them as a reference point when it comes to the other racquets he has listed (like Sampras'). That being said, I do think it's possible that the racquet Greg has been provided with is not "complete" in the sense of being fully modified to match what Federer actually plays with. I should stress the word "possible" in that sentence, because if I had to firmly decide one way or the other, I would put my money on the fact that Greg is a professional in the racquet industry. I'm basically going to trust his statements, and he is of the opinion that he has an actual Federer racquet. Unless we receive stronger proof in the other direction, it will remain entirely in the realm of speculation.

    Speaking of speculation, here's a little bit. Let's say Wilson put out bogus (IE "incomplete") Federer racquets to the USRSA (or wherever Greg Raven got the racquet) in some effort to hide his actual specs. And suppose we imagine that he does play with a much higher swingweight, as travlerajm suggests. When did Federer start using this higher SW setup? Would it have been before his professional career (like when he was a top junior), or some time during it?
     
    #73
  24. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Do I have issues with reading comprehension? Is English not my primary language? You should ask yourself those same questions, especially with your contradictory statement in your original post. But hey, you can explain what you meant as you see fit, since your original post is designed to mislead.


    First off, how can you say something is your "opinion" and then claim your following statements to be "in fact" as in actually being FACTUAL? How can you not see that contradiction?

    Secondly: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1204130&postcount=284


    I know exactly what you said:
    So how can you now make the statement:
    :confused: Note: See two quotes above.




    And in response to:
    But aren't we walking in circles? I've said from the beginning that your statements are just your opinions, stated as facts. I'm glad that response was as colorful as your original statement, and I welcome the cheap shot of an insult.
     
    #74
  25. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Hmm, based on your claims of what Federer actually uses, you would be the authority on that kind of sensitivity. IN EVERY POST YOU MAKE ON TALK TENNIS WAREHOUSE, you strictly make claims in one way or another that Federer is "in fact using a PS 6.0 90" and then when you are questioned, you say it's all just in your opinion.

    :rolleyes:

    I don't see why there's a need to reply to this, but if you feel the need, then toot your little horn out.
     
    #75
  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    It's quite obvious to me from this post of yours that you indeed have problems with reading comprehension.

    If I said- "In my opinion, Sampras is in fact the greatest tennis player of all time." Would readers know that it's only my opinion or would they mistake that as a fact? :rolleyes:

    "In my opinion" means "in my opinion". "in fact" does NOT mean "the fact is". Did you not even see that I started the paragraph with the statement - "In my opinion"? Taking my next sentence out of context proves NOTHING!!!

    Really, didn't they teach you this stuff in grammar school?
     
    #76
  27. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Seriously, you complement me by mistaking me with Federer. Do you think any intelligent readers of this forum would really make the mistake of thinking that I know the absolute truth and all the actual facts about Federer's racquet when I'm not Federer? Only Federer himself would know those those facts.

    You must be rather naive to think that what I say about Federer's racquet must be fact. But thank you for thinking so highly of me.
     
    #77
  28. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    In response to the ORIGINAL TOPIC, which is what we're TRYING to discuss,
    what don't you understand about: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1203127&postcount=62
    because there's nothing more to be said about your diction because they speak for themselves.


    Please, don't include any further sidetracking. What you state, and what I state have nothing to do with "grammatical" errors. Your misguides and stretched examples don't work on me. You should take a look at the definition of a word before using it so prominently.

    Also, you can re-write and reorder your re-written words as you see fit, but your original statement is clear as day as to what you are claiming to be factual about what Federer actually uses.



    What you say here is a new sentence; and it's not part of your opinion any longer when you call it a fact.


    Breakpoint, if you're honestly certain about what Federer really uses, then fine, but don't try to purposely mislead the general public with your biased opinions stated as facts, as how you do in all your other posts on Talk Tennis Warehouse in reference to what racket Federer is actually using. You have NO proof of your claims, nor do you EVER support your statements, so please don't try to argue about this.

    You cannot claim your opinions to be facts. Period.

    And there's nothing for you to agrue against here.
     
    #78
  29. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Your words are designed to mislead. Anyway, as stated before..


    Breakpoint, even with your epic 9,500+ posts on Talk Tennis Warehouse, you're beginning to resemble an untrustworthy and immoral forum member who has more slant than a questionable politician. You appear to have the fuzziest logic in your own personal explanations--if there are any--that have been claimed to have verified the many things you say is true. You are promoting a selfish campaign and it shows. :mad:

    Just to let you know, you're NOT an authority or an official ANYONE on this message board, but you act as though you deserve some kind of credit without giving recognized-as-true information on the things you claim. Many forum community members have time and time again voiced their open opinions about and against you, but you seem to take the act of ignoring them for granted. I am here, just as one individual, but I am voicing my opinion which mirrors plenty of other forum members.

    To me, you are as pretentious as your name suggests, and I believe you being domineering has everything to do with your lack of position or substance on this community board. Your opinions are but opinions, though you say them with the utmost mislead in the way you design your response. Honestly, how can I not have seen all this before?
     
    #79
  30. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    First of all, "IN FACT" LITERALLY MEANS "THE FACT IS." Secondly, why do you continue to try to lay insults at me when I've done no such thing to you. :rolleyes: I need only facts to argue, not insults or blame.

    Secondly, if anyone should return to grade school to learn proper manners, grammar AND logic, it should be the person sitting directly in front of that monitor of yours. Your rhetoric in itself is enough to rip a hole in the space time continuum.

    As I've stated earlier, you can re-write and reorder your re-written words as you see fit, but your original statement still stands. You are arguing based on what you tried to say, but there's no need for that because I've met the explanation that you've come to agree with: that what you say is just an opinion stated as a fact. (Now how many times have I had to say that over and over again to you? :confused: Are you still in college and in desperate need of Logic 101?)
     
    #80
  31. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    double post.
     
    #81
  32. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    And I NEVER do. Period! :rolleyes:

    You seem to be the only one here that mistakes my opinions as facts. Why is it that NO ONE else does? :confused:

    Notice that NO ONE else is commenting on your false accusations?
     
    #82
  33. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Alpinecadet, It is quite obvious that Breakpoint is proposing it as a theory.

    Note the bold. Also, he did not edit that post.
    Show us a source for this proposed fact of yours. I can see him pulling out a graduate level APA style book right now.

    Do I agree with Breakpoint more often than not? Yes, and I have called him out when he is wrong as well.
     
    #83
  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Then ask yourself this: Why is it that you are the ONLY ONE here that misinterpreted my opinion as a fact? :confused: Everyone else seems to be able to read what I wrote and understand my meaning EXCEPT YOU!! Thus, this is YOUR PROBLEM, NOT mine nor anyone else's.

    "In fact" DOES NOT MEAN "the fact is". Perhaps they ought to revoke your degree, if you have one, that is. If you said - "In fact, I thought it was a great movie." Now is it your opinion that it was a great movie or would anyone mistake your statement as a fact - i.e., that it is a fact that it is a great movie? The answer is no one.

    "In my opinion, he is in fact using a PS 6.0 90." means exactly the same thing as "In my opinion, he is actually using a PS 6.0 90". It is still obviously my opinion, as no facts have been presented.

    Why is it that EVERYONE ELSE knew I was stating an opinion and not a fact, EXCEPT YOU? :confused:

    And what did you think that "one thing" was that I was referring to that was "in my opinion" in the very first sentence of my parapraph? That his racquet is "a PS 6.0 90", of course! Don't you know you have to read sentences together in a paragraph rather than isolate them separately. Otherwise everything would be out of context!

    It's like someone telling you - "That was the worst movie I have ever had to sit through in my life! But some parts of it were pretty funny". Now if you just took the second sentence by itself, that might sound like a positive review doesn't it, and you might even be psyched to go see this movie. Taking sentences out of context can easily change their meaning.

    You can thank me for the grammar lesson now. :cool:
     
    #84
  35. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Ego and hero worship for some, curiosity for the sane.
     
    #85
  36. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    If you truly believe his statement is 100% pure opinion, that's great, then you agree with my original post. My statement is clear as day, and I need not repeat myself as a simple read-through of the entire thread is enough to explain my position.
     
    #86
  37. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Sorry, but you are taking your own words out of context to explain what you should have meant. Your original statement still stands.

    Responses or not, the public doesnt have to offer a single voice to back up my statement as simple logic will explain what you meant with your specific statement. Again, re-wording your original intent of meaning is pointless when your original statement in post #61 speaks for itself.
     
    #87
  38. SFrazeur

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    You are making the silly assumption that if a person has read every post then the only answer can be that you are correct. I am sure that there is some technical term or latin related term for sort of fallacy, I just cannot recall what it is.

    Now, can we get back to topic before the mods delete this thread.
     
    #88
  39. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    No, that is a false statement. Try reading what I actually wrote.

    I made a simple statement there: If you truly believe his statement is 100% pure opinion, that's great, then you agree with my original post.

    In my original post, I wrote that he expresses his sole opinion. Again, I've also explained this here:
     
    #89
  40. SFrazeur

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    AlpineCadet, you edit your post more than I do my own. I am not saying you are wrong or right. I am merely taking you to task on your flawed logic, in this post:

    Now back to topic.
     
    #90
  41. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Yes, that's a true arguement at its finest. :rolleyes: ''Back on topic'' would be to not reply to your comments.

    Also, I'm glad you've ascertained that you and Breakpoint are friends. Nice to know your starting position.
     
    #91
  42. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I'm not re-wording anything and I stand by my original post. It is obviously my opinion and everyone understands it as my opinion. Everyone with any intelligence, that is. Notice that you're the ONLY ONE that thinks I was stating a fact and not merely an opinion? Have you asked yourself why that is?

    I know what I meant, not what I "should have meant". Everyone knows what I meant. Perhaps you "should" improve your reading comprehension skills? And learn that "in fact" means "actually" AND NOT "the fact is".

    You in fact don't know what you're talking about. Now is that my opinion or is it a fact that you don't know what you're talking about? :rolleyes:
     
    #92
  43. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    ;) Nice to know you're standing by your mistakes and long winded explanations of what you really meant in the OP.
     
    #93
  44. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Do you have problems understanding English, or do you have problems with reading comprehension? Here's what I wrote from the beginning:

     
    #94
  45. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Because like I've already explained to you over and over but somehow you are incapable of comprehending, "in fact" DOES NOT mean "it is a fact".

    Like I said before, you in fact don't know what you are talking about. Now is it a fact that you don't know what you are talking about or is it just my opinion? In fact, I think you're clueless. Again, is it a fact too that you're clueless?

    Besides, if you say that someone is "incontinent", are you saying that person is standing somewhere in Europe or Asia? ;) LOL
     
    #95
  46. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    With respect, BreakPoint, time to give this a rest ?

    I think you've made your point (a n), but he either doesn't get it or doesn't want to admit to getting it.
     
    #96
  47. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    What are you talking about keifers? Speak for yourself!
     
    #97
  48. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    For mid tension, SW2 for a typical pro racquet is in the high 360s. Reducing the tension increases SW2. That's why I think Fed's SW is 370 minimum.

    As for the possibility that Fed is playing at SW1? There are lots of reasons why I think this can be ruled out. I listed them in the OP of my "Tale of Two Swingweights" thread. I don't doubt that you can still hit nice spin shots and play decent defense with with your SW1 nTour 90. But can you precisely control the depth on a full topspin swing when the incoming ball is a 100-mph serve? Not really - you would need an SW2 setup for that.
     
    #98
  49. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,827

    I use that setup, the SW1 as listed, this is an amazing racket, leaves something to be wanted for the serve. I just don't understand why Roger's serve is like that if he is at sw2.

    Also you still have not comented on Richard Gasquet's racket setup which is very simular to what some say Roger use.

    I still need to tweak my setup SW2, but my current setup is an amazing racket, no matter how hard someone hits to me or how much pressure it is just so solid and never feels a heavy ball.

    I get all of my amazing spins, I get all the stability, I get all the control, I get all the defensive ability. IMO this setup gives you the best of both worlds of SW1 and SW2

    What do you recomend for my setup in SW2 I put some 14g of lead at the tip, 1g = 5 sw right if at the tip? I want to reduce this to 360 and put the remainder at the butt and maybe a bit in throat
     
    #99
  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,051
    He could be.
     

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