Nadal: 2 things are quite clear

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Agassifan, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    1. People have always been wondering about Rafa's "injury" concerns. It had to be a combination of injury+confidence issues+gamesmanship. His most recent withdrawal confirms that confidence issues are definitely playing a huge role. Gamesmanship is also obvious from the ill-times MTOs, but I think confidence issues are bigger.

    2. Djokovic has probably ruined his chance at GOAThood. Those 3 consecutive losses in slam finals really hurt his legacy and confidence. He will still certainly be the man to beat on clay for 2-3 more years, but I think he has lost the chance to pass Fed in slam count (and weeks at #1, etc).

    BTW I think that this silent ban stuff is all nonsense. Athletes may dope or not dope, but a silent ban is impossible in this day and age.
     
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  2. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't believe that at all. I don't think confidence and injury issues have anything to do with what is going on. Put Nadal on any court tomorrow and I would not bet against him.
     
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  3. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    But he likely wouldn't bet on himself. That's the difference.
     
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  4. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    bingo........
     
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  5. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    You are saying he does not know he is not as seriously injured as he is letting on? Okay, sure. I am saying I don't believe in the seriousness of his injury thus I don't believe he will be in bad shape when he returns.
     
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  6. Amelie Mauresmo

    Amelie Mauresmo Banned

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    I definitely think the Wimbledon loss to Rosol destroyed Nadal's confidence and he doesn't seem to have much desire for the game anymore. The guy's young only 26, very wealthy he doesn't need to play tennis anymore he's won a ton of slams. I wonder if Nadal is going to end up like Borg and retire at a young age?
     
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  7. Shangri La

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    Nadal is a lot weaker, mentally and physically, than most people have given him credit for.
     
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  8. Virginia

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    Yes, and he is also a sissy. He carries on like a prima donna with PMT.
     
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  9. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Nadal is already the clay GOAT, nothing that Novak or anyone else can do about that. And BTW, Nadal has won all 4 slams , something that Novak is still chasing after...
    + only 4 players have won slams in the double digits in open era. If that's not goathood, I don't know what is.
     
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  10. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    I meant breaking into the Top 3 (or so). He surely is among the greatest to have played the game.
     
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  11. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Nadal is not the raging bull of 2005-2008 anymore.
     
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  12. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Congrats Nadal is the clay GOAT replacing the previous clay GOAT(Borg, Vilas, whoever). Nobody really cares about surface GOAT, but Overall GOAT = Federer.
     
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  13. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Maybe, some people still think it's Laver. It's up for debate. Clay goat is not.
     
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  14. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Wow, so the overall GOAT debate is down to Laver or Federer. What more does Fed have to do? Win 20 slams?
     
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  15. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Your poasts?

    :roll:
     
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  16. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Yes it is. Ralph has basically 6 real RGs, and even if you consider his 7 RGs, some people consider Borg as the better clay courter,if not its a tie. Borg didn't have the luxury to moonball weak 1HBH like Ralph so he had it much much harder to dominate at RG.

    Ralph's 2011 RG has a big star on it,a widely acknowledged fact. Look as much as I like Ralph I can't quite crown him the clay GOAT cause that would be injustice to Borg,sorry.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2012
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  17. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    You have to be kidding me. Nobody cares about surface GOAT, it is overall GOAT that matters. And there is a debate amongst some people with respect to clay goat, some still think there is a debate between Nadal and Borg. I personally think Nadal has slightly surpassed Borg now, but it is close.

    For overall GOAT, I don't believe in the GOAT concept but Federer is the closest to that moniker for sure and no, there really is no debate at this point.
     
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  18. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    It's not just about overall achievements(titles won) but the style of play which is a genius never before seen. Fed has the full array of shots.
     
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  19. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, but that is a whole separate issue to his achievements which leave the other players in the dust.
     
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  20. Rjtennis

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    A silent ban is complete nonsense. If he was caught using banned chemicals he would have an outright ban. I agree that with his injuries and the elevated play at the top of the game I'm sure he has lost a lot of confidence.
     
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  21. Amelie Mauresmo

    Amelie Mauresmo Banned

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    Even Borg said Nadal is a better clay court player than he is. Nadal only lost ONCE at the French Open the guy is invincible on clay. Look how many times Nadal has destroyed Federer in the French Open final. Nadal also has more French Open titles than Borg. Come on, face the facts Nadal is superior to Borg on clay.
     
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  22. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Let's see Nadal play with Borg's wooden racquet.
     
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  23. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    Do you get reruns of Nightrider in India?
     
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  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Laver and Federer aren't the only GOAT contenders if you study tennis history properly.
     
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  25. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    What do you mean 6 "real" RG? You lost me there. Rafa has more RG than Borg, Borg only got 8 masters on clay vs 16 for Nadal. His winning % is way higher than Borg's (93 vs 86) and he has more overall clay titles than Borg. What else do you need? Sorry but you just don't have a case here.
     
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  26. TennisD

    TennisD Semi-Pro

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    This has to be a joke, right? You can call Rafael Nadal a lot of things, but suggesting that he's not one of the strongest players of the last 20 years, both physically and mentally, is absurd.
     
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  27. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    What is your explanation for Agassi's drug use being covered up? And he was as prominent then as Nadal is now, not to mention, covering up a drug which clearly doesn't help one's tennis would seem to be less necessary than one that does-but they covered it up anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  28. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with you. That is why when people say Nadal has not shown up for six months because he is afraid to play Rosol or Djokovic, I just laugh. That ain't it!
     
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  29. Feather

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    Mustard, he is NOT a Federer fan. NOT even remotely close. He is just unnessarily bring the GOAT point into a discussion about Nadal just to make Nadal fans to quote the H2H with Federer. Unfortunately for him, Veroniquem didn't get the drift :wink:
     
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  30. Feather

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    It's just cr*p what else?

    Rafa is the best in RG, there is no counter argument there. Rafa has lost ONLY one match in RG and anyone should be plain stupid to ignore such an obvious point. That's incredible and I think success like that is very rare in Sports let alone Tennis
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  31. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    What Montroll is trying to say is that he thinks Nadal's RG title last year doesn't count because he did not play Eeyore in the final.
     
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  32. Feather

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    NO, there is no star attached to it. Rafa is the defending RG champion in 2011. So the onus is on Djokovic to prove that he is better than Nadal at RG by beating Nadal. He failed at his first test, against Federer. There is no point in speculating what would have happened if Djokovic entered final. It's NOT Rafa's fault that Djokovic didn't reach final
     
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  33. Feather

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    lolz @ the names
     
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  34. bullfan

    bullfan Legend

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    Laver is GOAT.....
     
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  35. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    No question that Rafa is the clay GOAT... just like Fed is the GOAT.
     
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  36. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    There is still significant question on the latter.
     
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  37. Rocky89

    Rocky89 Professional

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    They covered up for Agassi, but they let him continue to play. If Nadal were to be caught doping, then they would cover up for him too and let him continue to play, just like Agassi. That is why the silent ban theory is total bs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  38. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    That is OK.

    He played tennis in different conditions, with different equipment and different requirements towards the players.
     
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  39. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    This has been my theory for a while. I started thinking this in 2009 when he lost early in Paris. Sure he would have been devastated, & he came back and dominated those 6 months or so again in 2010, but since becoming THE Nadal in 2005, 2009 was the only year he was able to celebrate his birthday properly. That's a real sacrifice for a young man to make.

    Amongst other things of course.

    He must beat Laver in Mortal Kombat. Finish HIM! :shock:



    Or Mario Kart.
     
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  40. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    The other poster didn't say he wasn't mentally or physically strong. He/she simply said he's overrated in that department, and that is very debatable. For the record, I think he's one of the strongest players on both accounts that tennis has ever seen never mind the last 20 years.

    But for example, a lot of people look at Nadal's 5 set record and his wins over Federer, and say he's mentally tough. This is true obviously, however they fail to mention his really bad losses to Gonzalez, Delpo, Tsonga, and Federer (at WTF 2007 and 2011). Contrast this with say Federer and off the top of my head I can only recall 2 matches in a longer career where he's been absolutely blown off the court. Those being RG 2008 and Olympics 2012. The general consensus is that if Nadal can get it to 5 (or 3) sets he will win, but he's been "destroyed" a fair bit in his career for someone of his standard. The thing about this logic is that no one actually questions Nadal's mental toughness. Everybody just says "Well that guy was way too good today" and everybody moves on. He's also had many injuries and MTO's, but he's known for fitness and stamina. People will say if he wins he was healthy or he was injured but he fought through it, but when he loses "He was injured!" is a favourite line. Again, I still believe he is one of the strongest on both accounts in all time, but this is some food for thought.

    Contrast this again with Federer, and you have almost total opposites. Federer has an average 5 set record for someone of his standard, but he rarely gets blown off the court. Therefore Federer often loses very close matches, mostly to rival players because lesser players can't take him to 5 sets and are often beaten very easily. Then it is more prudent to question mental toughness because he lost a 5 set match where he often had a thousand chances to break and never took advantage of them. It's a study in how you want to lose matches with both these guys. Also physically, he has only 2 walkovers in over 1000 matches (a significant amount more than Nadal obviously as he's older by 5 years), and has never retired in his career. In fact, aside from Wimbledon 2012 I can't remember the last time he called a trainer on the court.

    Just some food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  41. bullslayer

    bullslayer New User

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    greatest cheater and buttpicker of all time. career over
     
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  42. Virginia

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    Comparing Nadal with Borg is just a joke - Borg is/was an icon. Nadal is just a successful pusher, with questionable tennis ethics.
     
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  43. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    EXCEPT for the fact that both Laver and Sampras say Fed is the greatest. Other than that, great argument. (sarcasm).

    I agree with the OP; confidence is a huge aspect of his game; he could play in Sydney or Kooyong then give the AO a go if he wanted to. But he doesn't - because HE doesn't think he can win and can't stand the thought of another loss to a Rosol-like player, which would be a real possibility.
     
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  44. niktub

    niktub Semi-Pro

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    +1 well said
     
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  45. zam88

    zam88 Professional

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    Let's say he does resume his career this season when clay comes around.

    let's further say he has good success, but maybe not quite what he has been in the past...


    And Djokavic, Federer or Murray beat him at RG.


    Will that victory still be seen as a big deal like it would have been in 2006-8 or in 2010/11?

    Or will Nadal and his fanbase simply say that the knee is still an issue.. it's not the same nadal anymore.... this proves nothing! etc.
     
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  46. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Borg's achieved more on grass and indoor. Nadal achieved more on clay and hard. All in all, their achievements are close. As for their playing style, Borg wore his opponents down with long rallies. If anything, Nadal is the more aggressive of the 2 (especially on clay).
     
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  47. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    Lol, what have you done with your life that makes you so special? You may not like an individual but give the man his due, he has won 11 slams, same as Borg. And I have tremendous respect for Borg and it's disrespectful to discredit either.
     
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  48. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Only on clay would I say Nadal is a tad more aggressive than Borg but not off clay.
     
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  49. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    Oh, brother...

    Did it occur to you that letting a player continuing to play when he is using a drug that is harmful to his results is quite different than letting a player continue to play when he is using drugs which enhance his results?????
     
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  50. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    I can discredit both, and it's not in the least disrespectful: Borg took his toys and ran home to momma the moment he encountered adversity, unlike great athletes in tennis and other sports, and Nadal is a proven cheater on one level and suspected of being a cheater on many others.
     
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