Nadal and ATP World Tour Finals

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by McEnroeisanartist, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

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    Anyone else find it odd how weak Nadal has been at the ATP World Tour Finals?

    I mean, Moya and Davydenko have better records than Nadal there.

    Nadal has often been compared to Borg throughout his career, but Borg's work at the year ending tournament is far greater. Both played the tournament 5 times, Borg was 16-6 and Nadal is 9-10. Borg won it twice and lost in the final two other times. Nadal lost in the final once.
     
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  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He only cares about Slams, not some round robin joke
     
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  3. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Oh he has a losing record?? It's a bit surprising. But he made SF's in 2006 (6-4 7-5 I think he lost to fed) and in 2007 (64 6-1) but he's only made 1 final surprising
     
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  4. Warmaster

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    Borg has a great indoor record. 23 titles and a winning % above 80. He's miles ahead of Nadal on fast courts.
     
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  5. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Yeah of course who cares if you can't win a tournament with the best 8 competing where your even awarded a second chance right??
     
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  6. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    I am sure Nadal is crying in his Quely's right now that those guys have done better at the WTF than he has. Especially considering he has won the career slam,21 masters titles,Olympic gold,has 11 slams on his resume,has broken numerous records,and has outshined both of their careers put together by a landlside. How depressing it must be for him. :lol:
     
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  7. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Clarky taking the NSK route? :shock:
     
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  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He wants to win in elimination tournaments, not in a round-robin club tournament when everyone is tired and wishing to go home for the holidays.
     
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  9. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Nice try ;) but if everyone is tired he might as well win it right? It's no harm other than the fact that he CAN'T win it :lol:
     
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  10. big ted

    big ted Hall of Fame

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    the problem is hes always beat up by the end of the year. if the tour finals was held in january like it was in the early 80s he might have a couple of trophys by now
     
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  11. merlinpinpin

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    Two things: the Masters is always played indoors, and most indoor surfaces don't suit his game (the lower bounce takes away most of his main weapon). Also, there are no real "freebies" at the Masters, only top-tenners. You need to *win* these matches.
     
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  12. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Not a chance. I'm just sick of the OP and his dumb threads. Who cares that those guys have done better at one tournament,when Nadal has done better everywhere throughout his entire career than they have. I'm sure Nadal would take his career achievements anyday over winning the WTF.
     
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  13. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Yes there is. Player's can actually lose matches yet still go on to win the tournament. You can't get a bigger freebie than that.
     
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  14. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Borg was great on carpet, maybe even better than clay. Nadal's weakest surface is indoor hard (even though he still made finals in Paris, WTF and Rotterdam, so he's not horrible either). Also at WTF, Rafa lost to Fed 3 times (twice in semi, once in final). WTF is Fed's best event on the tour (along with W), he's not exactly easy to beat there. Fed has never beaten Rafa at his best events either (RG and Monte-Carlo), not that he didn't try!!!
    ETA: Borg had his weaknesses too. For instance , he could never win USO, even when it was played on clay. You want to bet Rafa would have won USO on clay? Bring it on :twisted: (personally, I'll take the USO title Rafa got over any number of WTF...)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
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  15. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Says quite a lot about Nadal, no?

    Even with multiple chances he cant beat the top 8 players in the world consistently enough in 1 tournament to win it?
     
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  16. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    It's also the one tournament where you can lose multiple times. :)
     
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  17. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Not really. There are well documented reasons why he doesn't do well at the YEC, and Davydenko has a game that is better suited to indoors. I believe, off the top of my head that Moya may have played it a couple time when it was outdoors so that comparison is a tough one to make.

    As for the Borg comparison, it's an apt one which is why a lot of people make it, but there are a few differences, like the one you highlighted. He plays like Borg. He dominates clay like Borg, but he hasn't really dominated at Wimbledon. He's won two HC slams, but the AO wasn't huge like it is now in Borg's time, and I believe Borg made 4 USO finals, so although Nadal has won the USO and made another final, Borg is probably a better player there as of now.
     
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  18. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Davydenko is also a nightmare matchup for Nadal. 2 of Davy's 3 master titles were won by beating Rafa in the final and he also won Doha by beating Rafa in the final. He must have celebrated every time he saw Rafa would be his main obstacle to a title (in best of 3 on hard) lol.
     
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  19. CMM

    CMM Legend

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    No. ............
     
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  20. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    How can Borg be the better player at the USO after having never won it? Sorry,but constantly being the runner-up doesn't seems all that great to me. Nadal has won it,and won it on his first try. That's better than making 4 finals and never once winning.
     
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  21. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

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    Clarky, using your logic, Kraijcek is a better player at Wimbledon than say Lendl because he won it and Lendl didn't. Krajicek won it once, SF and QF another time, compared to Lendl who was a finalist twice, and 5 semifinals.
     
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  22. ivan_the_terrible

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    The answer is very simple - it's his cycling down period in the year.
     
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  23. mattennis

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    The main reason: Nadal has never been able to be at the top of his game (physically and mentally) for an entire season.

    The WTF is the last tournament of the year and Nadal is always totally spent by that time of the year.

    He did try his full best in 2010 and he beat Roddick, Djokovic and Berdych, and Murray in the SF, but he lost to Federer in the very final.

    His only chance to win the WTF is to design his schedule one year to be at his physical and mental peak around November and then still it would be very difficult for him.

    For him to win such a big low-bouncing indoor tournament (with the eight best players of the year) everything has to fall in the right place (as it happened in the 2010 US OPEN). So I think he will never win it (or one time maximum).
     
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  24. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    It's at least debatable. You also have to consider that Borg played Connors and McEnroe in all his finals, who were experts at using the crowd to their advantage.
     
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  25. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    This. In fact, he has missed the tournament due to injury I believe in 2005 and 2008, and was not fine at all in 2009.
    And the surface obviously doesn't help him.
     
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  26. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Well,Nadal did play the best hardcourt player in the world in the final the year he won it in 2010. I think that counts for something.
     
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  27. Agassifan

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    Not if the WTF were on Clay
     
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  28. Crisstti

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    We can be sure Borg would take a title over four lost finals.
     
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  29. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    If we're assuming Nadal wasn't the best HC player in the world in 2010, then it certainly wasn't Djokovic at the time. Federer was better. He won the AO, made finals in Toronto and won Cincy. Both did bad at IW and Miami, and although Djokovic did beat Fed in the SF, it was a matter of one point in the difference. He also went on to make the Shanghai final, and win Basel and the WTF.

    Not that Nadal couldn't beat Fed. Even I'm not that stupid. I'm just pointing out that Novak wasn't necessarily the best HC player at the time.
     
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  30. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Sure he would, but that doesn't mean Nadal was the better player at the USO.
     
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  31. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    No, it doesn't, but it's close. He has 1 title and made the final another time. I don't see how 4 lost finals would prove that another player to have been better there.
     
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  32. August

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    Should a surface help a player? Indoor hardcourt is Rafa's worst surface, so Rafa not winning WTF isn't any bigger surprise than Sampras not winning RG, slam played on his worst surface.

    But also, I think quite often Rafa hasn't played his best tennis in WTF. Maybe he just isn't very good on indoor hardcourts or he hasn't been on his peak during WTF. 2010 was maybe his bist WTF campaign, and he still couldn't win it, even if Roger is a good match-up for him. So, I'd say WTF is a difficult tournament for him to win, even if he played his best tennis. But I wouldn't say he couldn't win it.
     
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  33. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    No doubt about it. Nadal has one win and one final there. I think that trumps 4 finals and no titles no matter how you slice it.
     
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  34. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

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    YEC has become a poor tournament. Derive no pleasure from watching it anymore.
     
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  35. Towser83

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    Well.. he IS. Lendl is a better player overall, but I can't say he is a better Wimbledon player than Krajicek hen he actually won it. Just like Nadal is the better US Open player out of him and Borg. Don't forget he made the final again and might have this year if he had played.

    hahahahahahahaha seriously funny stuff. Djokovic the best hardcourt player? When? In 2010 not a chance, the bloke just managed to win his first match against a top 10 player by scraping past a sub par Federer. Nadal would probably have beaten anyone that year, but in terms of HC play, Federer, Nadal and even Murray were above Djokovic, Djokovic stank on HC in 2010, he only won 2 500 titles (Dubai by the skin of his teeth) and apart from the US Open was owned by Federer losing 4 times and failed to make even the final of masters, getting beaten by people like Rochus and Roddick. Even now, Djokovic doesn't match up to Mac and Connors though I still think Nadal would have a better chance at winning the US open compared to borg.

    I do think Borg got unlucky to face 2 of the best US Open champions ever in Mac and Connors, but then again if Nadal had come up against this era's best hardcourt player and best US Open champion - Federer, you gotta feel he'd have beaten him at least once. Also getting to the final the following year counts for a lot.


    Anyway to the point of this article, some people try and paint Nadal as a loser because he hasn't won the WTF, which is ridiculous since Federer and Agassi are the only players to win all 4 slams and the WTF, which means all the other wtf winners are missing a slam that Nadal has won. Which is more important.

    However the other way to look at it is, a player as good as Nadal is obviously good enough to win it, so why hasn't it happened? A bit like why can't Djokovic win cinci. In Nadal's case a combo of timing, fitness, and luck. The surface doesn't help him but when motivated he got to the final in 2010 beating Djokovic and Murray and could have won but Federer happened to play really well, hit his backhand great and he had great belief. On another day Nadal could have won that final.
     
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  36. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Towser, you put it better than any Nadal fan. Good :)
     
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  37. ivan_the_terrible

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    The 'last tournament of the year blah blah' is always the excuse. Prove that he has played more than anyone else, explain why and then maybe I can entertain that scenario.
     
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  38. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree it's close. I just said it was debatable. I probably shouldn't have said that Borg was "probably" the better player at the USO in my first post. "Possibly" would have been a better word.

    As an example, I could say Federer is possibly a better player at RG than Courier. I bet that would be a close vote. The problem in Borg's case is that he has no titles.

    I heard this analogy one time, and I think it applies pretty well here. It's like if your friend has 6 pieces of cake, and you only end up with 5, it's not a big deal because you have a lot of cake as well that you probably won't even eat. However if your friend gets 1 piece of cake, and you get none, then it's a problem. Not exactly of course, but you can see where I'm coming from I hope.
     
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  39. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Thanks :)

    I think if Nadal comes back in good health and doesn't give up winning it, he can do it, and should do it, it would be a bit unlucky not to. But now he might only have 2 or 3 realistic attempts. Time will tell. Maybe one year he will have some time off late in the season and it will help him. Maybe one year he won't win much and that will focus him on the WTF. I feel his unluckiest event is Miami. He hasn't played the WTF enough to fully give himself the chances he gave himself at each slam - improving bit by bit, but the 2010 final shows it's definitely possible if he can give it a few more great efforts.
     
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  40. Gonzo_style

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    Well, Borg played 4 finals and 1 SF in USO, Nadal 1 W, 1 F and 2 SF so it is very debatable, but at the end title is a title, so i would say Nadal. :-|
     
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  41. Agassifan

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    Of course, if your home boy did well, it would be a lot more enjoyable. This is a great tournament to watch because the level of tennis is quite high.
     
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  42. ivan_the_terrible

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    It's interesting that no one has mentioned the doping angle. Judging from the many posts in the numerous threads on PEDS, it's pretty much decided that the top guys are juicing. So like Fed's 2008 mono, Djoker's gluten-free 2011 etc - this is the evidence against Rafa. He religiously fails to do anything of worth after the USO.
     
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  43. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    You are seriously hopeless. ******* began his run of "confidence" :wink: during that tournament(according to him),but since you say otherwise,I guess he's just FOS,and is clueless about his own game. :lol:

    You also have to consider how badly Nadal had lost on hardcourts multiple times prior to that match against *******. I'd say Nadal beating him there was one hell of an accomplishment considering his poor record against him on HC.
     
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  44. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Well you think he's full of S*** :lol: He also cites davic cup as being the big moment his game came together. In any case if the US Open was the starting point, it does not mean he was the best HC player in the world at that time at all, it just means it started his climb, meaning he wasn't at the top at that point, he was at the bottom. But I think he was pleased and surprised to even be in a slam final. He still went on to get his arse kicked by Federer in Shanghai, Basel and the WTF, where he also got his arse kicked by Nadal too. And prior to the US Open he'd had his arse kicked by Fed in Canada as well.

    To be perfectly honest, going into the US Open, both Djokovic and Nadal had been fairly poor on HC that year. There was no clear cut best HC player in the world at the time but Federer had won the AO and Cinci and Murray won Canada and made the AO final so they were leading Nadal and Novak in the HC stakes. But AT the Us Open, the best HC player in the world was Nadal. He won easily and played better than all the other players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
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  45. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    What an amount of nonsense. It's sad, actually.

    Yep, very true.
     
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  46. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Djoko started his run of confidence at DC final 2010. At least, that's what I've always heard him say. He played so-so before and after USO (including at WTF). He reached semis and finals but 2010 was his only year as a top player (starting in 2007) when he didn't win a match vs Rafa. It was also his worst season vs Fed: 4 losses for 1 victory (of course that 1 victory was massive since it was at the USO) . In 2012: he's 2-2 vs Fed, he was 4-1 in 2011 (his best of course), 3-2 in 2009, 1-2 in 2008 and 1-3 in 2007. (He didn't get to play Murray at all in 2010). Everybody knows that Djoko's form was particularly poor in 2010 until the DC win.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
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  47. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    He also said that his confidence and belief he could beat the top players began when he beat Fed there in the semis. I always thought he was FOS,so I am not surprised he can't keep his story straight about this either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
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  48. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Beating Djokovic on hardcourt at all is a great win for Nadal, Djokovic had been with exception of 2010, one of nadal's worst nightmares on hardcourt. Going into the US Open they were both in not so great form, but Nadal raised his level much higher than Djokovic, who almost got beaten in the first round then managed to get his game together but in the end not enough. Nadal turned his form around very fast from canada/cinci.

    Everyone but Clarky :lol:
     
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  49. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Nadal is so poor on hardcourts,especially against players like *******,his win at the USO 2010 would be like Fed beating Nadal at RG. It was really an upset if you think about it.
     
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  50. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Or *******.
     
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