Nadal has officially lost the "age advantage" over Federer

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennis_pro, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Let's compare Nadal's achievements thus far (aged 25 years 6 months) with Federer at the same age (which was after the 2007 Australian Open):

    Nadal - 10 majors, 1 olympic gold, 19 MS, 46 titles total, (yes I didn't include DC because it's not a singles competition + too many other factors)
    Federer - 10 majors, 12 MS, 3 WTF's, 46 titles total

    They have the same no of majors won (10), same no of titles won (46), Federer has an advantage in WTF (3>0) while Nadal has it in MS (19>12) and olympics (1>0).
    That means if Nadal wins less than 2 majors in 2012, less than 7 titles total, he'll fall behind Federer for the first time.
    It's fair to say that the "age card" can no longer be used.

    Thanks for playing, it was just a matter of time.
     
    #1
  2. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    great post.

    Let the *******s present themselves. Are you not entertained?
     
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  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nadal owns Federer in their head to head matches.By 3 times or so...
     
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  4. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Federer owns Nadal in no of majors won. What does that have to do with anything? You just decided to come here and spit out whatever your brain associates with Federer and Nadal?
     
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  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Honestly, that Nadal beats Federer in the insane way he does at every major final they play, specially at RG, is really shocking, to say the less.
     
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  6. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Honestly, you're really this desperate to grasp at straws?

    If you're so into h2h check the last match between Federer and Nadal. Federer made him look like a complete amateur.
     
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  7. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Federer held his own on his own surfaces when his main rival came into his prime...a rival who was a bad matchup for him.

    Nadal has failed to do the same re Djokovic.
     
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  8. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

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    LOL only 3 posts for the H2H card to be pulled... unfortunately for Rafito and his fans seems like age is finally catching up... :cry:

    Hopefully the avid Nadalitos can still brush off reality in their La La Land and keep believing the "illusion" of Rafito being on his way to GOAThood and trumping all the tennis records.

    It would get really boring without them here.

    Vamos Rafa on his way to 50+ Slams on his 50's!!!! :)
     
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  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nadal had no oil to burn his body.Like Djokovic.But I agree Federer has been the best player of the ending months of the year.No dispute.
     
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  10. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Vaaaamooooossss!
     
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  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is about tennis, boy, about being a bad machup for your opponents...or you rather be a good matchup?
     
    #11
  12. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal is actually meeting Djokovic in the finals. He just can't get a single win, that's all.:)
     
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  13. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Gimme a break, Nadal took 5 weeks off to prepare for WTF. You couldn't think of a dumber excuse or what?
     
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  14. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Sorry, I don't understand dumb hick speak.
     
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  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It´s easy: if you are a " bad matchup" it is easy for you to beat an rival than if you are a good " matchup".You should know it by now, since I figure you are a rookie or sophomore at college by now...
     
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  16. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Anyways, the point of this thread is that now there is no excuse to fall back on for Nadal fans in comparing him to Federer. No "at the same age" nonsense. Age-for-age, Nadal is now level with Federer (whereas before, Nadal fans kept saying he had done more at the same age, as if that was a valid comparison between players who will likely have different career spans).
     
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  17. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Your sentence is an abortion and illustrates nothing of value.
     
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  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I just tried to teach you the difference between " bad matchup" and " good matchup".I hope I was able to make you understand it.
     
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  19. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    Other than the WTF we haven't seen fed and nadal go at it on a hard court surface lately. So it's hard to gauge how these two would go head to head at how they play in their current state. Fed did very well at WTF, but keep in mind WTF is a very slow surface. Fed put a beat down on Nadal last year as well and Nadal came this year and showed fed up on a couple of tournies, so I don't know if WTF is a good gauge of where they're at.

    Nadal as is with most athletes hit their prime age at 26 years old. Nadal is nearing that, but he's so talented and works so hard that I feel he can still win tournies regardless if he's slows down with age. The only thing going against him is his health. If he can keep healthy he might out pace fed. A lot of guys on tour fear Nadal not just for his defensive gets, but the top spin he generates on the ball. It's kinda like fed's style of off-paced rhythm disrupting balls, both guys have that as their special variety card they can play that other players wish they possess and most find it hard to adapt to. But Nadal came really close to winning another wimbledon and he's pretty much a write in for Roland Garros, so I can't agree with all the negative criticism that Nadal is getting just because screech had a break out year. For me Nadal didn't drop, he just hit a wall that went from brick last year to granite this year; screech. If it wasn't for screech Nadal could have easily been the one with a calender slam. Think about it Nadal was almost in the finals of every slam event this year (aussie semis). He was playing lights out until he ran into the djokenator.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
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  20. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    You can look at it from a different perspective - the only reason Nadal won the French Open this year is because he avoided Djokovic. He wasn't ANYTHING CLOSE to beating him in the Wimbledon and the US Open finals this year. If Nadal is such a good bet to win another French - who would you bet for in the final if we had Nadal and Djokovic in it? That's right - Djokovic.

    Nadal played in 3 major finals this year, he lost to Ferrer (got beat pretty handily btw) in the AO quarterfinals.
     
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  21. dudeski

    dudeski Hall of Fame

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    LOL :)

    10nadaltards crying
     
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  22. OddJack

    OddJack Legend

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    Someone else posted a similar age advantage, but he said Nadal loses his age advantage if he doesnt win AO 2012, was it you?
     
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  23. Talker

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    Fed was 10-2 in slam finals then at that age?
     
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  24. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Wimbledon 2008 and AO 2009...

    I don't think Rafa needs to equal or surpass Fed's slam count anyway, to be better than him. The slam count is skewed because of the surface distribution...

    He was injured.

    Agree I wouldn't, right now, consider Rafa the favourite to win RG next year.
     
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  25. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

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    10-1 if I'm not mistaken, at the age the OP is mentioning he had only lost to Nadal in the 2006 FO.

    Nadal has a record of 10-4 in slam finals already. He's been in 3 more finals, obviously due to starting to appear in slam finals at a younger age.

    So it seems that we've found another record where Federer is better at, he's also got a better ratio of Slam finals won at the same age.
     
    #25
  26. TopFH

    TopFH Hall of Fame

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    It was a matter of time, IMO. Nadal just isn't as good as His Rogerness.
     
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  27. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    There is only one head to head statistic that matters: you vs the rest of the draw.

    If you win a tournament and your nemesis does not, regardless of whether you had to beat him, you have achieved more than them.

    That's why all manner of sporting almanacs over the decades have lists of who won tournaments and attained the top ranking, not lists of h2h comparisons. The only people who care about h2h comparisons are retarded or lazy sports journalists who can't see the bigger picture or internet fanboys whose memory seems to go back only as far as their idol's last tournament win.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
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  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fed is ahead in number of weeks at #1, and he ended year number one 3 times(2004, 05, 06) while Nadal only two(2008, 10).
     
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  29. Nojoke

    Nojoke Rookie

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    What about 2007? Or 2009? More of a question than a comment. If nadal was not year end no. 1, it had to be fed. So that looks like 5 to 2.

    Also the op says that wtf is 3 to 0 fed. Isn't it like 5 or 6 to 0?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
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  30. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    Only the most **** of tards cares about stupid things like this. Federer is a greater tennis player than Nadal, im not sure why some people get so worked up over that. I still like Nadal better at the end of the day.
     
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  31. _maxi

    _maxi Banned

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    That's because you are not a fanatic, or are a rational one haha. But the real Nadal fanatics think he's better than Fed. They never say, like you, Fed is better but I like Nadal more. They say Nadal is better.
     
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  32. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

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    Agreed. Nadal was a bad matchup for Federer. So what? Federer was a bad match up for the tour :evil:
     
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  33. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Theyre comparing achievements of Federer's to Nadal. Comparing Fed's achievements at the same age that Nadal currently is.
     
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  34. monfed

    monfed Guest


    While I don't dispute the facts that you've presented there are a few things that need to be considered -

    1) Who's gonna stop Nadal at RG? Djokovic? Sure. But will Novak get past Federer this time? I don't think anyone apart from Novak can beat Nadal on clay and if for whatever reason Nole doesn't make it, Nadal takes it. Federer aint beating Nadal in RG imo.

    In short - Nadal is more dominant at his best slam than Federer was at his(although both have 6 titles at their favourite slam). By this I mean , Nadal looks unstoppable at RG but as a Federer fan I always felt Roger could be toppled at Wimbledon. He didn't give off that feeling of invincibilty after the 2007 finals compared to Nadal at RG.Only Soderling has beaten Nadal at RG since 2005.


    2) Novak MUST be fit and raring to go. If for ANY reason he falls off the wagon next year, Nadal picks up a slam. The only other players I think can beat Nadal at non-clay slams are Del Potro and Tsonga, but there's no guarantee. I just can't see Federer beating Nadal in a slam.

    In other words - Even though Federer was making slam finals left,right n centre after the age of 25, Nadal was a constant thorn in the flesh. Will Djokovic be Nadal's thorn as he tries to rack up slams? This holds the key imo.


    3) Nadal's game is yet to be truly unravelled imho. Yes,Novak has him nicely figured out and I do think Nadal is his pigeon but can we rely on him to take him out EVERY single time? Novak's injuries are a MAJOR concern so what happens if Novak goes out early at a slam, who stops Nadal then?


    4) Delpotro's return to his 2009 self will be key in stopping Nadal in slams incase Novak doesn't do the job.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2011
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  35. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    The match-up thing is idiotic double-counting. To the extent that Federer's greatness is diminished by his H2H with Nadal, that is reflected by him having "only" 16 slams and not more (vs. a hypothetical 23 Major wins, including the FO SF, which was really the final, because Puerta was using steroids and any victories he had didn't count).

    Yes, Federer would be even greater if he had more slams. But because it seems silly to talk about him "only" having more slams than anyone else and points to an unrealistic standard, detractors don't say that. They look at the H2H.

    The H2H, btw, is skewed by Federer being better on his worst surface than Nadal is on his (looking only at the surfaces Majors are played on). If we included "indoor" courts and if Federer and Nadal had met as many times indoor as they did on clay, I'm sure that H2H there would be equally favorable to Federer. Indeed, also the same at the USO. Regarding Wimbledon, Nadal was lucky that his prime did not coincide with Federer's, because there is no question who the better grasscourt player is (with Federer being one of the two best grasscourt players ever...and Nadal not being in that category).
     
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  36. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Nadal's health is more of a concern than Djokovic's. And Nadal was quite lucky to win the FO in 2011, both on account of Federer outplaying him most of the first two sets and being in a winning position, and in account of being the fortunate beneficiary of Federer defeating Djokovic. That doesn't take anything away from his victory, but it would be dishonest to say he had a stranglehold on the match and couldn't have been beaten.

    The difference between him and Federer should be greater now than it was in 2008, seeing as how Federer is 30 and Nadal is still in what should be his prime years. But it isn't. It is in fact closer than ever, partly due to Federer continuously working on his claycourt game -- Nadal said as much in saying his backhand was better this year at the FO than ever -- but also partly due to Nadal declining on clay; and of course due to Federer having a style of play that doesn't degrade rapidly.

     
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  37. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Why does it matter who stops Nadal? Is that the only thing people watch tennis for nowadays? Just to see who stops Nadal or who stops Djokovic? There are great matches happening. And besides, there are many players who can stop those guys. Didn't Melzer, Tsonga, Berdych, Kohlschreibber, Haas all beat Djokovic in the Slams not that long ago?
    Didn't Ferrer, Djokovic, Del Potro, Tsonga, Murray, Soderling all beat Nadal in Slams?
    Players are going to rise eventually, maybe sooner than later, and put the screws on these top guys. It happens to everybody. For all we know, Tomic, Ferrer, Tsonga, Murray, Dolgopolov, Federer, Isner, etc might stop Nadal at the AO. One of those guys might stop Djokovic.
    Lot of things can take place.
     
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  38. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Seeing as how they have the same # of titles there, the rest is just purely your opinion, not facts. Most would say Federer is either with Sampras as the best grass-court player ever (he does have more consecutive Wimbledon victories) or right behind him.

    Also, many would make the argument that Federer is clearly the bes hard court player ever, and it would be hard to dispute that, since the vast majority of players are excellent on hard-court. What he has done at the USO and the AO (and also YEC/WTF) is incredibly impressive.
     
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  39. adamX012

    adamX012 Rookie

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    OP, you can't be serious about your title right?
     
    #39
  40. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    We are comparing them at the exact same age. That's what the OP is comparing doing.
     
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  41. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Federer has been in winning positions against Nadal at RG in 06 and Rome 06 but he just doesn't get over the line. I mean Federer played his best clay match against Nadal at Rome 06(with MPs) yet STILL lost. Fed won the first set 6-1 at RG 06 and then just fell away as if he forgot to play tennis. So unless Federer ACTUALLY beats Nadal at RG, my money is still on Novak to topple Nadal there.

    If Nadal is truly toppled at RG, I think it'd be fair to write his obituary but till then hold your horses people.
     
    #41
  42. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    Once Rafito gonna get his mental strenth back over Chrismas.
     
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  43. monfed

    monfed Guest

    I think you misunderstood my post. I was merely saying why this "at the same age both have the same slams" argument is moot because only Novak is beating Nadal at slams and if for whatever reason Novak gets injured or is eliminated then Nadal would end up winning that particular slam. I mean without Novak, Nadal would've had his career best year with 3 slams and many MS titles in 2011.

    As far as other players stopping Nadal at slams is concerned ,till it starts happening consistently I ain't betting on it.

    Oh and Fatherer beating Nadal at a slam these days is next to zilch considering Fatherer is friggin 30 with 2 kids and a lovely wife plus they've slowed down the courts to a pathetic extent using heavier balls and whatnot. The ball just isn't in Fatherer's court anymore.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2011
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  44. dh003i

    dh003i Legend

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    Your opinion is irrelevant to the facts. Nadal is not invincible on clay. Djokovic has beaten him time and again on clay, because with Djokovic playing consistently great tennis, Nadal has problems...against a player who's game does not fit into his strengths. The gap between Nadal and Federer on clay has not become wider, but narrower, and may continue to do so.
     
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  45. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Where did I say Novak can't beat Nadal on clay? I said ONLY Novak can beat Nadal on clay.

    The gap between Nadal and Federer on clay getting narrower is your opinion and not fact either.
    As far as RG 2011 goes, when Federer lost the first set, it was pretty much curtains even though he did pull out that 3rd set. And had he won that first set, a repeat of 2006 was ALSO on the cards. Looking at their history alone at RG(not to mention the massive matchup advantage that Nadal has) one would've have to be brave to say for sure that Roger would've beaten Nadal had he won that first set.

    The gap imo(not fact btw) is still the same, it's still a herculean task for Fed to beat Nadal at RG.
     
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  46. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    This is absolute fallacy. The pros and coaches have known the score regarding the distribution of the surfaces at the Slams and can train and build appropriately. Both Federer and Nadal began the bulk of their careers on clay and one player built up better overall strengths for clay and the other for hard and grass, it is what it is. There is no skewing due to court surfaces, players and coaches knew the score, trained for the score, and one man has come out on top. That's called fair play.
     
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  47. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

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    Nadal is far ahead, he has the Career Grand Slam. Also compare the Masters shields, Nadal far ahead. Nadal is ahead of Federer at the same age. And it's not even close. In fact Nadal is already tied with Borg in Roland Garros titles. He's only 25 and already the GOAT of a surface!
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
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  48. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    It's trickier than just numbers to compare them at the same age because Roger had 2 incredible years by this point where as Nadal had 2 slightly less incredible years, but Nadal's career has shown much greater longevity of greatness by this point in his career and so I give him the clear edge right now, especially because of his unbelievable record at RG and that he had to go through a perceived possible GOAT for so many of his Major victories.
     
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  49. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

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    The greatest slam year of all-time belongs to Nadal - 2010. Nadal the only man in history to win a slam on clay, grass and hard in a calendar year. Federer never had the ability to do that.
     
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  50. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Wasn't dominant enough and had a dubious first few months but it's a fair point. It isn't an unreasonable opinion to hold, but many other people will argue it's unreasonable and don't seem to find the surface variety to be such a major point, for some reason.
     
    #50

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