Nadal has played (and won) more matches than Serena and has more titles

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by President, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. President

    President Legend

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    And all this despite being 5 years younger and turning pro 6 years later. I guess it shows the massive gulf in the quality of the mens and women's tours that such a great player like Serena is inferior in many metrics to only the 2nd best player of this era.
     
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  2. malbaker86

    malbaker86 Professional

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    Umm....ok......
     
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  3. President

    President Legend

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    Just thought it was interesting that Serena, who is the same age as Federer, has actually played less matches than someone 5 years younger.
     
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  4. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    You can't compare Rafael Nadal to someone on the women's tour. In fact, you can't compare Rafael Nadal to ANYONE, period. :p
     
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  5. Tammo

    Tammo Banned

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    Preach! People try to say Borg is a better CC, but he is simply not :p
     
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  6. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal is closer to the male goat(Federer) than Serena is to the female goat(Graf). Nadal has a lot of work to do and people believe eventually he'll reach tier 1 great, but Serena is too far behind to reach tier 1.
     
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  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Serena has won the Olympics Gold medal, but Federer could not do so. It speaks volumes about the gulf in their abilities.
     
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  8. President

    President Legend

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    Federer is better by nearly every other standard and also has a silver medal in the Olympics.
     
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  9. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    All in all, a pretty weird comparison: being injury prone, having to deal with a half sister's murder, and simply having interests outside of tennis are all reasons for that. IMO people regard Serena's career more highly as a woman player than BP's as a male player.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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  10. フェデラー

    フェデラー Hall of Fame

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    How is Nadal not a tier 1 great?!?!? I mean yeah he is weak on no.1 weeks, no YEC, and a disproportionate amount of his majors are at the French, but the man still has 11 majors and the career slam.
     
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  11. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    Because this is TTW, where Fed was the GOAT when he had five slams, yet Nadal with 11 is a tier 2 great.
     
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  12. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    LOL dont try and breakdown and make sense of anything TMF ever says. The rest of us figured that out long ago. Just laugh, dont analyze.
     
    #12
  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    11 slams is a huge gap from 17, 200 weeks at #1 behind Federer. Not to mention he has zero WTF. No way Nadal is in the same league as Roger.
     
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  14. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thank you. Agassi who's only 3 slams behind Nadal is considered 1 tier below Nadal despite their gap is closer than the gap between Nadal and Federer.
     
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  15. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Serena just doesn't care though. She is so much better than her peers that she used to take huge breaks from tour and still show up and destroy everyone.
     
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  16. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You're such a fanatic. 22 > 15. She has a long way to go and I don't think she'll ever reach tier 1 great or in the level of Graf/Martina. As I've mentioned above, Nadal is 1 tier behind(for now), period.

    In your dream. Most people have Graf and Martina as #1 and #2, just like most people have Fed as #1 and Laver #2. Serena is ranked around #6.

    Most GS titles
    player total
    1 Steffi Graf 22
    2 Martina Navratilova 18
    2 Chris Evert 18
    4 Serena Williams 15
    5 Margaret Court 11
    6 Monica Seles 9
    7 Billie Jean King 8
    8 Justine Henin 7
    8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
    8 Venus Williams 7

    Most GS finals
    Rank Name Total
    1 Chris Evert 34 (18 )
    2 Martina Navrátilová 32 (18 )
    3 Steffi Graf 31 (22)
    4 Evonne Goolagong 18 (7)
    5 Serena Williams 19 (15)
    6 Venus Williams 14 (7)
    7 Monica Seles 13 (9)
    8 Margaret Court 12 (11)
    8 Martina Hingis 12 (5)
    8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12 (8 )

    Most single titles
    Rank Player Singles
    1 Martina Navratilova 167
    2 Chris Evert 157
    3 Steffi Graf 107
    4 Margaret Court 92
    5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
    6 Billie Jean King 67
    7 Lindsay Davenport 55
    8 Virginia Wade 55
    9 Monica Seles 53
    10 Serena Williams 47*

    Most weeks at #1
    Rank Player weeks
    1 Steffi Graf 377
    2 Martina Navratilova 332
    3 Chris Evert 260
    4 Martina Hingis 209
    5 Monica Seles 178
    6 Serena Williams * 130
    7 Justine Henin 117
    8 Lindsay Davenport 98
    9 Caroline Wozniacki* 67
    10 Victoria Azarenka* 45

    Consecutive weeks at #1
    1 Steffi Graf (1) 186
    2 Martina Navratilova (1) 156
    3 Chris Evert (1) 113
    4 Steffi Graf (2) 94
    5 Monica Seles (1) 91
    6 Martina Navratilova (2) 90
    7 Steffi Graf (3) 87
    8 Martina Hingis (1) 80
    9 Chris Evert (2) 76
    10 Martina Hingis (2) 73

    Year end No. 1 players
    player year
    Steffi Graf 8
    Martina Navratilova 7
    Chris Evert 5
    Lindsay Davenport 4
    Justine Henin 3
    Martina Hingis
    Monica Seles
    Caroline Wozniacki 2
    Serena Williams 2
    Jelena Jankovic 1
    Victoria Azarenka 1

    Most singles matches won
    Player Wins
    1 Martina Navratilova 1442
    2 Chris Evert 1309
    3 Steffi Graf 902
    4 Virginia Wade 839
    5 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
    6 Lindsay Davenport 753
    7 Conchita Martínez 739
    8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley[5] 704
    9 Billie Jean King 695
    10 Gabriela Sabatini 632

    Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
    Rank Player Matches
    1 Martina Navratilova 74
    2 Steffi Graf 66
    3 Martina Navratilova 58
    4 Margaret Court 57
    5 Chris Evert 55
    6 Martina Navratilova 54
    7 Steffi Graf 46
    8 Steffi Graf 45
    9 Steffi Graf 44
    10 Martina Navratilova 41

    Most consecutive singles titles
    1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
    2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
    3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
    4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
    5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
    5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
    7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
    7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

    Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
    1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
    2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
    3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
    4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
    4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
    6. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
    6. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
    6. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
    6. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
    6. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

    Most singles titles won in a year
    1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
    2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
    3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
    4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
    4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
    6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
    6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
    8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
    8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
    8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
    11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
    12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
    12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
    12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
    15. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
    15. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
    15. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
    15. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
     
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  17. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    QFT ...........TMF doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. A Fedlard like him thinks that if he writes it frequently enough, it will become true. Pathetic indeed......:twisted:
     
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  18. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Silver is not the Gold Medal, nor was he able to make history there.

    But that's not too much of a surprise, since Federer failed to win the Grand Slam, so he's no GOAT in the sport, either.
     
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  19. President

    President Legend

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    Wait, you actually think Serena is a greater and more famous player than Federer? LOL you are really insane :oops:
     
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  20. Ellipses

    Ellipses Rookie

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    Tier 1 great =/= GOAT. You can have more than one person in a tier. If you think Federer is way above Nadal, fine, but that doesn't meant Nadal isn't a tier 1 great.
     
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  21. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    U know, TMF gets a lot crap, but read some of things NA and TV write and u get blind bias too.
     
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  22. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Except for the fact that Nadal shouldn't be tier 1, not yet.

    Three homeboys have best case for tier 1 including amount of big titles, dominance and longevity: Federer, Laver, Sampras (and I rate them all time in that order). Level of play is factored in, so bye bye Tilden for example. Look if Nadal can win a few more, or just be a bit more...consistently dominant he gets in tier 1, but not now.

    If I get called a Fed **** for this post...u know where to put it!
     
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  23. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    How much more does Nadal need to get into Tier 1, in your opinion?

    He has 11 majors, Olympic singles Gold, 2 Davis Cups, record # of Masters titles, has a leading h2h against all of his main rivals, has the biggest single surface match win streak and the career slam.
     
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  24. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    They said Federer is below Rosewall, Pancho, Laver while ignoring the vast majority believes Federer is the greatest with the resume to backup. EVery polls, Fed is listed at #1. However they want to believe Serena is the goat when her resume is paled in comparison to the other great legends. Serena not only behind Graf/Martina, but she's not even the greatest player in her country, it's Chris Evert. The goat on clay has a staggering 94 winning percentage on clay, incredibly dominant by winning 125 consecutive matches on one surface, and a mind-boggling 34 grand slam finals!

    read more.
    http://chrisevert.net/CE-Records.html

    NA and TV need to open their eyes.
     
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  25. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Do you agree Agassi is 1 tier below Borg? Because that's how most people perceive.

    6 slams, 200 weeks at #1, 6 WTF, 20+ more titles are a hell of a lot. Not to mention so many streaks/records that elevates his goatness. The gap is too great.
     
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  26. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Agassi has 8 slams. Good to see you know your stuff...

    Edit: Oh I get it now, you're comparing Fed to Nadal. Well, yes you're right it is a hell of a lot more, but Fed has been around longer too and hasn't had to deal with the injuries Nadal has had to deal with either.

    We'll wait and see what Nadal has acheived when he's 30...
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
    #26
  27. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Duh!!!

    My point is if the gap between Agassi and Borg is good enough to be separated by 1 tier, obviously Nadal is behind Fed by 1 tier.
     
    #27
  28. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Where is this Tier list? Who has categorised these players into Tiers and based on what criteria?
     
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  29. President

    President Legend

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    Nadal is on the same level as Borg. Whether that is in the same tier as Federer and Laver or not is up to individual discretion and how many you want there tiers to be.
     
    #29
  30. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    If he had a longer presence at number 1 (By end of this year Djoko will most likely have a longer time at number 1 than Nadal for example) at least 1 WTF title (come on it's the final tournament of the season and 2nd biggest after majors). A few more majors wouldn't hurt either.
     
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  31. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Few people on the street can even name Federer. Serena (and Venus) became historic figures and transcended the sport when they--as sisters (and African Americans)--took command of the sport. Theirs was an unexpected breakthrough. I have friends and relatives in several countries, and many know who SW is, including those who do not follow tennis. That is how one transcends the sport-- a measure of just how famous a player can be. Sharapova is no favorite in my book, but she too transcended the sport where non-tennis fans can and do recognize her. The last male player to have that kind of heat was Agassi, and before him, several players of the great "tennis boom" of the late 70s/early 80s.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
    #31
  32. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I know people and relatives from other countries too that are not tennis followers by any means and know Roger. Transcending figure....
     
    #32
  33. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Tier great is not universal, but each has their own set. My point is if one separate Agassi from Borg by one tier, then it make sense to separate Nadal and Federer. You got to be consistent.
     
    #33
  34. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Ok then, would you be so kind to post your Tier lists please...
     
    #34
  35. President

    President Legend

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    Roger Federer is one of the most famous athletes in the world, he's been in the Forbes top 10 highest paid athletes list for years now and was recently voted the 2nd most respected PERSON in the world (after Nelson Mandela) and Australia's most popular athlete. I don't know anyone who even casually follows sports who doesn't at least know the name Roger Federer, not sure who you are hanging out with. I also have friends and relatives in multiple countries (USA, UK, and India) and ALL of them know of Federer's legend.
     
    #35
  36. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    But why does Nadal have to be comparable to Federer if there are other people (presumably with lesser credentials) in the same tier as Federer? Depends on if and who you have in that tier I guess/of course.
     
    #36
  37. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    It is so funny observing folks who don't understand the difference between "opinion" and "fact" get all huffy when their personal preference is not universally accepted.
     
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  38. President

    President Legend

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    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
    #38
  39. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Tier Great

    1. Laver, Sampras
    2. Borg, Nadal, Rosewall, Tilden
    3. Agassi, JMac, Connors, Lendl
    4. Edberg, Becker, Wilander
     
    #39
  40. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I don't believe Sampras is in the same tier as Federer(even some of the old-timers put him below Fed). And I don't believe Nadal is in the same tier as Laver. There's a gap between these players. If we don't distinct them, then we might as well put players ranges from Nole to Federer in same tier 1 great.
     
    #40
  41. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    Ah right, fair enough then.

    I had assumed you had Federer in the same tier as Sampras and Laver.

    I may not agree with you on that point for various reasons but like you said this tier thing is completely subjective, so I'll give you credit for being as consistent as you say.
     
    #41
  42. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Where's Federer, Tier 5 :shock:
     
    #42
  43. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    I think he meant to place Fed a tier above Sampras and Laver, i.e. GOAT tier.
     
    #43
  44. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    A Tier above Tier 1. What would that be Tier 0?
     
    #44
  45. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    Just edited my post
     
    #45
  46. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's pretty clear now that Fed has extended the gap even further since 2009 FO, so I can't see Sampras in the same tier as Fed.
     
    #46
  47. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Ok so you have:

    Federer (Magical Tier above 1)

    Tier 1: Laver, Sampras
    Tier 2: Nadal, Borg, Tilden, Rosewall
    Tier 3: Agassi, JMac, Connors, Llendl
    Tier 4: Becker, Edberg, Wilander

    So tell me, if Nadal is 2 Tiers below Federer, why is Federer on the brink of becoming Nadal's turkey? Shouldn't a guy on magic Tier level be able to do better than that against a guy 2 whole Tiers behind him?

    Also, where is Pancho Gonzalez?
     
    #47
  48. President

    President Legend

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    Matchup issue, and Nadal's career is not over! He's 5 years younger than Federer and will move up to tier 1 eventually. Is it that bad to have a losing H2H against an eventual tier 1 all time great?
     
    #48
  49. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    H2H is irrelevant when he's way behind Federer...

    6 slams, 200 weeks at #1, 6 WTF, 20+ more titles are a hell of a lot. Not to mention so many streaks/records that elevates his goatness. The gap is too great.

    Forgot Pancho. He's either in tier 1 or 2.
     
    #49
  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yeah, according to The_Order, Nadal should be bump down to another tier simply because he has a losing record against Davydenko.
     
    #50

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