Nadal is back = worst possible news for Murray fans?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by always_crosscourt, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    You guys argue like an old married couple. You'll soon be up there with The Order and abmk don't worry :).

    On topic, I don't think Murray should be too worried about Nadal yet. If they were to play right now I would pick Murray on HC and grass for sure. Besides, he's a better player than he once was.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
    #51
  2. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Federer won Wimbledon after Nadal's departure but I understand what you mean.
    It's because Djoker got Ferrer at both the USO and AO and Federer got Murray. Let's see how the draw goes at RG.
     
    #52
  3. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Sure...Nadal is always guaranteed to knock Murray out of every Slam they meet in, just like he did at 2008 USO and 2010 AO!

    Oh.....wait!

    :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
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  4. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    On clay: worst possible news for everyone. No exception.
    On hard: Murray and Nadal haven't played for more than a year and Murray won their last encounter. They're 6-6 on hard court, so it's gonna be interesting to see how things pan out in the near future. I don't think there's a clearcut answer to that at this point.
     
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  5. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

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    Since their last encounter (the bagel in Tokyo), Nadal has made huge improvements, Murray has not. Nadal will routine Murray when they next meet on hard-courts.
     
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  6. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    In what way has Nadal made 'huge improvements' since his 2011 loss to Murray?
    He has only made 1 HC final since then which he lost (2012 AO) Murray has made 4 HC finals since and won 2 of them, including a Slam. Nadal has been sitting on his backside for the past 7 months and hasn't had time to improve zilch off clay. Murray has been making obvious improvements all the time.

    More silly trollery!
     
    #56
  7. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Nadal is back, yes, but Fed is clearly finished, so from Murray's perspective, it's a wash.
     
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  8. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    "stupidity..."

    "The Scot has more talent in his little finger than the Serb and the Spaniard put together."

    "...dominate these elite pushers."

    I'm curious, when you typed "Top class trolling." were you staring admiringly in the mirror?

    And, oh, btw, nice alibi for Rat Boy's fold up at the AO in January, guess you've been taking classes from Nadal Nut Nuzzlers....
     
    #58
  9. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    What people don't understand is that the nature of their matchup is surface-independent. In consecutive slam meetings (Wimbledon 2010, French Open 2011) Nadal obliterated Murray in straight sets. The latter is expected, but the former is not given that Nadal is not a natural grass courter while Murray grew up in the only country in the world where that is the most common surface. Murray did peak to barely snag a set in Wimbledon 2011, but after regressed back to the mean; his mean being well below that of Nadal's. A few months later, on Nadal's worst surface, Murray only could win a set when a tired Nadal (who had to play consecutive days) took his foot off the pedal.

    Yes, I understand that Murray played Nadal close at AO 2007, when Nadal was still useless on hard courts, beat Nadal at USO 2008 when Nadal was barely animate after a jam-packed summer, and overcame an injured Nadal at AO 2010. These were all clear instances where Nadal was far from his best, playing on his worst surface. Pound for pound, Nadal dominates this matchup, irrespective of surface.

    Contrast this to the Parera/Federer matchup, where Parera only holds the edge on clay, and there only due to the anomalous happenstance of Parera being a left-hander and the Swiss Supreme utilizing a one-handed backhand. Federer holds a considerable advantage over Parera outside of clay when accounting for age and racquet technology. Their rivalry is surface-dependent. That's the crucial difference.
     
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  10. Tiebreak100

    Tiebreak100 New User

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    Oooooooft, such bitterness. There is little doubt that after Federer, Murray is the most talented tennis player. Only a fool would deny such a fact. Mentally the Serbian gymnast and the Spaniard have been stronger than the Scot in the past, but times have changed.

    I suspect you may be another individual who will struggle to deal with the inevitable Murray domination.
     
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  11. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

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    Nah, surface independent, Nadal owns everyone, Fed included. He's 5-6 against Fed on outdoor hard.

    RE. Murray vs Nadal, Nadal has obviously made huge improvements to his backhand and has been spending 7 months training hard. By contrasts, Murray has declined, yet the fact that his playing standard has declined has been masked by Nadal's absence (allowing Murray to reach GS finals), and Federer declining even faster than Murray.

    Next time they meet, Nadal will whoop Murray harder than he used to - even if they meet on indoor fast hardcourt (Nadal's weakest surface and Murray's strongest surface).

    Now that Nadal is back, the time of Murray making slam finals has come to a firm end.
     
    #61
  12. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    An insightful analysis as always with, as usual, far too much generosity being shown towards Murray. However, I do wish you would try and be a bit more realistic about him and stop sugar-coating his pathetic failures merely to try and placate the deluded Murray tards on here!

    Would you agree that there has never been any occasion on which hardcourt was not Nadal's worst surface and that, despite this well-known fact, he can only ever lose on it when he is obviously either injured or tired?

    I think you are being a little unfair to Federer here. Is it not really the case that his 2006 and 2007 FO losses to Parera were more due to the orthopedic boots the latter wears to protect his deformed feet and by virtue of which he is able to slide on the clay surface more effectively than any of his opponents? Moreover was not the 2008 FO beatdown at his hands and the subsequent 2008 Wimbledon loss and 2009 AO loss to Parera on the latter's respectively second worst and worst surfaces, far more due to the debilitating effects of the mononucleosis that seriously derailed his career at that time rather than to any supposed mismatch of left-handedness to one-handed backhandedness?

    I ask only in the interests of complete fairness and balance!
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
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  13. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    LOL, Nadal has won ONE slam by beating Murray in the semi's and Fed in the final and that was RG2011 where Fed wasn't tired, he was just outplayed again.

    Nadal has NEVER won a slam by beating Murray in the semi's and Novak in the final.

    Also, Nadal has faced Djokovic 9 times in slams and he's faced Murray 8 times. The record against Djokovic is 6-3 and the record against Murray is 6-2.

    Federer has played Novak in majors 11 times. That's only 2 more times than the amount Rafa has played him.

    Now, as for imagining Nadal's slam count if he had to play Novak more often, I'll continue to embarrass you. Of all the slams Rafa has won, he didn't have to face Novak at RG05, RG10, RG11, WIM08, WIM10 and AO09. Now, Fed also did not have to face Novak in AO09, in fact it was Nadal who had the long exhausting semi against god mode Verdasco while Fed had a walkover against his pidgeon and he still lost.

    So with AO09 out of the way, that leaves WIM08 and WIM10 and 3 RG titles. Sorry, but RG2011 is the ONLY slam where I could see Novak beating Nadal and that's no guarantee.

    Now, let's look at Federer's heroic slam count. Didn't have to face Nadal to win FIFTEEN out of his 17 majors. Imagine his slam count if he had to face Rafa more often :oops:

    In fact Federer has won 6 slams without even having to beat a top 4 opponent. Federer's record against top 4 opponents at the AO is 1W (JC Ferrero) and 6L (2 x Nadal, 2x Novak, 1x Murray & 1x Safin). Federer's RG09 was a joke, he didn't have to face any really high calibre opponents on clay, Del Potro only got close because Fed was playing so crap, Haas almost knocked him out and then Fed had to play a slam final virgin.

    Which brings me to my next point, the amount of slam final virgins Fed has had to face. Novak (USO07), Murray (USO08 ), Baghdatis (AO06), Gonzalez (AO07), Soderling (RG09), Del Potro (USO09). Wow out of all of those Delpo was the only one who managed to fight the fear of his shadow and beat Fed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
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  14. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    This is incorrect. Nadal is 5-2 against Fed on outdoor hard.

    Don't agree that Murray has declined. If anything, he has got better. I do agree that Nadal's backhand has improved a LOT since 2011 and was very happy to see how well he was hitting it in yesterday's final given he was out for 7 months.
     
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  15. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    No bitterness at all, the majority of the post were you own words, and they speak for themselves. As for the "Murray domination," don't hold your breath, from your perspective, more "horrific injuries" are likely to "derail" him.:rolleyes:
     
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  16. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Really? Since when does Fed hold the advantage on HC? Indoors, yes but outdoors Rafa OWNS him 5-2. Then you consider their most important HC meetings and Rafa has won both of them (AO09 and AO12). Fed should really only have 1 win since he was down 2 sets and a break in the Miami05 final but Nadal choked it. Fed didn't win that mach because of surface, he won because Nadal lost his nerve.

    On grass it is quite even, Fed doesn't hold an advantage there. They've played 3 times on grass and 2 of those meetings went the distance. And this is when Fed was in his peak.

    Now as for racquet technology helping Nadal, it has also helped Federer. Fed would NOT be able to get as much spin as he does on that slice BH and we all know how crucial that shot is for Fed.

    Another technology argument is that court technolgy has aided Federer. If HC were never made we most likely would have had 2 majors on grass and 2 on clay. We all know that Federer can't beat Nadal in best of 5 on clay but Nadal has beat Federer on grass in best of 5. So Fed's slam total is aided by technology.
     
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  17. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    it will be interesting to see Rafa's matches.. to see how he matches up against other players... ferrer and almagro couldn't do it on clay. that says a lot about his ability on that surface.

    Indian Wells will be a big test for Nadal, but I wouldn't underestimate him... it will also be a test of other players to face him.

    Reading this thread it's as if Andy had dominated Rafa over the past 3 years. Yet looking at the actual record, watching the actual matches and tennis played, it's quite the opposite. Even on hard courts Rafa leads the head to head, but Murray has made it more even in recent years.

    Big test for Murray if he faces Nadal. His team should hope there aren't too many feathers dropping from the sky at Indian Wells... Should be an interesting match. I expect Rafa to be more aggressive and come in more. I wonder if Murray will adapt his grinding game.
     
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  18. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Didn't Federer win Cincy 2012?
     
    #68
  19. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Murray's going to wipe Nadal out on hardcourts every time they meet from here forward.
     
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  20. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Nobody's scared of Nadal off clay. There's a reason why he hasn't won a Masters off clay since Indian Wells 2009. He hasn't even won a non-clay tournament since Japan 2010.
     
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  21. axel89

    axel89 Banned

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    agreed and people think murray got wiped in rg but murray lost in 3 tight sets that went for 3hours
     
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  22. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    A lot of Nadal's matches even on clay are very tough. He faced set points and numerous break points against his pigeon Almagro.
    As we all know, Ferrer is far too small to deal with Nadal on clay, regardless of Ferrer's clay court ability against others.
    We really need to see Nadal's efforts in Indian Wells although I have a strong feeling that Nadal will do his best to avoid the top players in order to maintain his momentum on clay. These hardcourt events are more of a nuisance to him. He wants to stay on clay but he also needs to play the hardcourt Masters.
     
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  23. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    BTW, Murray welcomes the Nadal challenge in every match they play. Just like Murray pounded Federer on grass at the Olympics and beat him at the AO, he's going to prove a very difficult proposition for the clay court wonder. Bring it on to hardcourts and let's see Nadal take on the Grand Slam Champion Murray.
    Last time they met, Nadal won only 4 points in that final set against Murray in the Tokyo finals.:shock:
     
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  24. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

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    What have I been saying, if they met on indoor lightning quick hardcourt, like Paris - the complete opposite of clay - Nadal would still at this present moment decimate Murray, probably 6-1, 6-2.

    And a surface like Paris would be Nadal's worst surface and Murray's best.

    Let's not even imagine the destruction that would take place if they met on an outdoor slow hardcourt like Indian Wells, or, god forbid, on clay. Nothing Murray can do.
     
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  25. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    nadal is back and murray has moved on..and up.
     
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  26. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

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    Murray only moved up because Nadal was not there.

    Now he is, he will move back down to his rightful place.
     
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  27. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    What youve been saying is your usual absolutist bollox trolling, like your serial 'murray won't get past r1, r2, r3' posts during wimbledon last year under your banned username passive_aggressive.

    You have zero credibility - I have no idea why people respond to your inane drivel. Every prediction you've ever made has been wrong.
    I
     
    #77
  28. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    You do realise that you're trying to have a reasonable conversation about murray with tennis_fanny_182\passive_aggressive?
     
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  29. spperry

    spperry Rookie

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    I think it will be harder for Nadal to beat Murray on HC as he has definitely improved.

    FO will be Nadal and on the grass it is very close, Nadal has beaten him at Wimbledon in the past and will see it as his best opportunity to win a slam outside of RG.

    I would give it to Murray on HC at AO or US, Nadal in straight sets at FO and Nadal in 5 sets at Wimbledon.
     
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  30. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    You forgot to add "TankJob" in there IIRC.
     
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  31. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Good shout Zag. I guess that means he's been perma-banned under 3 usernames. It must make him very proud.
     
    #81
  32. raging

    raging Professional

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    lol.
    You don't need to use an ignore on always...the bs meter kicks in & response is only to posters that have some semblance of logic! :twisted:
     
    #82
  33. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    LOL it's funny how you like to "assume/guess" the previous usernames of posters. Who did you say I was again?
     
    #83
  34. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Yes. I realised that (again!) a post or two later. He's now joined his previous aliases on 'Ignore' until the Mods spot him and ban him again for the umpteenth time!
     
    #84
  35. Pazzy

    Pazzy New User

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    I love all these assumptions now that Nadal has won some mickey mouse tournament he is going to dominate again ????

    perhaps on dirty clay, but I can't see him picking up much HC titles...
     
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  36. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Murray is a much bigger fish than Ferrer especially as it's Nadal's worst surface. Murray is fast and fit and hitting the ball harder than he's ever done before. I think Murray should be the heavy favorite this soon into Nadal's comeback.
     
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  37. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    Yes, Murray was off the hook when nadal took half the year off. Nadal can seriously beat murray on hard court and he doesn't need his legs to do so, as much as everyone says. I have faith in Nadal's playing style that he can perform just as well if he gets used to the surface again. He might be rusty at Indian Well and Sony Ericcson (if he chooses to play that one after Indian Wells), but I don't think Nadal will see murray as too much of a problem after he gets situated on the hard courts later in the calendar year.

    All this coming from a fed fan who in a way despises Nadal. But even I can't look past the truth and to deny Nadal of what he's capable of is to be in denial of it.
     
    #87
  38. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    How do you explain their hardcourt head to head (both slam and non-slam - especially since Murray 'arrived' in summer 2008 )? You make it sound like Rafa owns Andy on that surface - and that's simply not true.
     
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  39. President

    President Legend

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    On hardcourt Murray is very competitive with Nada (and always has been)l, anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves. On clay and grass, it's been a different story but Murray may be able to reverse the tide at Wimbledon. He's always been a great grasscourter, and maybe now with the added confidence of being a major winner and Olympic champion he can finally beat Rafa at SW19.
     
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  40. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    The name escapes me at the moment, would you mind asking Abmk and/or Mandy about it? I'm sure their memory on that is better than mine.
     
    #90
  41. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    True, I'd say at their best the match-up on HC is 50-50 (probably say 60-40 in Murray's favour currently because of Nadal's long layoff).

    On clay Nadal is an overwhelming favourite of course but I think you might be right about Murray having a decent chance to reverse the tide on grass, while he lost their 2 matches in Wimbledon in straights (2008 and 2010), 2011 match was a lot closer (Murray took a set and had a chance to go break up at 2-1 before he missed a FH sitter and imploded mentally) so it will be interesting if they meet this year at Wimbledon.
     
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  42. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    Is Nadal back 100% by the way?
     
    #92
  43. President

    President Legend

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    I agree. Wimbledon this year will be very interesting if all the top 4 are in good form. I think Djokovic is clearly the worst grasscourter of the 4 but I actually can't pick a favorite between the other 3, they are all quite similar in level on the surface at this point IMO. If forced to choose I would say Federer, but an in form Murray and Nadal can obviously have great chances to beat Roger on grass.
     
    #93
  44. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Murray makes one final run and all of a sudden Djokovic, a Wimbledon champion, is clearly the worst grasscourter in the top 4. :lol:

    It's amazing, you have even excluded Djokovic from "the other 3" as if Djokovic is some Ferrer-style player. Djokovic has proven himself on grass and if he shows up in form, he can kick Nadal's teeth in on that surface. It once again becomes about the match-ups. Federer might be a tough obstacle for Djokovic on grass, but Nadal and Murray are nowhere near good enough to cast a shadow over Djokovic even on grass, Djokovic's worst surface.
     
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  45. DragonBlaze

    DragonBlaze Hall of Fame

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    Sharpshooter?
     
    #95
  46. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    You must mean now and not overall with that sentence?
     
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  47. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal is a greater grasscourt player than Djokovic.2>1. Simple.

    However, prime Djokovic can compete and defeat Nadal on grass and yes, my post is talking about the current time. Look, Federer is a far greater grass court player than Nadal, but do you think he casts a shadow over Nadal when they play? Nope. Nadal has always competed hard with Federer on grass and eventually defeated him. Murray...he might feel more at home on grass than Djokovic, but Djokovic won Wimbledon and beat Nadal convincingly to win the title.Murray is NOT greater than Djokovic on grass.

    All I'm saying is that, if Djokovic is in-form, he is very much in contention of the Wimbledon title with Federer, Nadal, and Murray. He is a Wimbledon champion and that is enough reason to not treat him as someone who has Ferrer's chances of winning the title.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
    #97
  48. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    Ok I get what you mean with cast a shadow now and it makes more sense.
     
    #98
  49. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Yep that would be it.
     
    #99
  50. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Wait a second. You joined in October. How do you know his identity? Sharpshooter was banned way before that point.

    [​IMG]
     

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