Nadal lost on grass first round yesterday.....

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by cknobman, Jun 11, 2008.

  1. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    therefore I concur he stinks on grass and will lose 1st round at Wimbledon.

    ..you heard it here first. :wink:
     
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  2. drive

    drive Semi-Pro

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    it was a doubles match..
     
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  3. babbette

    babbette Legend

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    he was teaming with an old player. he was just using him for pratice. :mrgreen> besides, Rafa has never done great in Queens doubles wise, or singles wise. Queens seems to be just his practise for Wimbledon, where he is amazing. First time he played Queens, he reached the finals of Wimbledon, and ever since then he hasn't stopped this ritual. the real test is in Wimbledon where players are there to play their best not just get practise for the real contest.

    atm, he's 2-1 up on Bjorkman.
     
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  4. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    He wanted a warm-up match for the singles I think.

    Also Spain are playing in Euro 2008 and Rafa wants to watch all the matches. There was a rumor going round that if Lopez/Mahut was a short match, the doubles would've been delayed until Spain finished playing Russia, because Nadal was watching the match.
    Their match against Sweden on Saturday would interrupt the doubles final, so I doubt he planned to win it :)
     
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  5. Dijana Djokovic

    Dijana Djokovic Banned

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    Dont worry.Novak will win Wimbledon this year.
     
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  6. cueboyzn

    cueboyzn Professional

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    Maybe you should stop smoking your son's used overgrips...
     
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  7. simi

    simi Hall of Fame

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    Queens has not "slowed down" the grass like AELTC has. It still plays like grass. Wimbledon plays like a fast clay or slow hard court these past few years.
     
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  8. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Ridiculous comment. I have to keep recycling my efforts to prove this theory wrong.
     
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  9. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal F,

    Please interpret for us your stats above.
     
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  10. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    The stats show how hard it is to break on grass compared to the other tournaments. Maybe Queens is even faster but Wimbledon is also very fast and allows for many free points on serve.
     
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  11. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    You are not taking into account bad bounces with your theory. Your theory fails. There are many different factors that affect service breaks, such as how the surface takes the ball, the footing of the player, etc.


    If we are talking about in terms of pure speed, the USO is the fastest. Anyone with two eyes can see that.
     
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  12. feetofclay

    feetofclay Semi-Pro

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    Nadal won his second round singles match 6-2 6-2
     
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  13. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Bad bounces were much worse in the 90's. Grass now is actually not that bad. Clay also has bad bounces but it hasn't hurt the returners. I think you are overrating the effects of bad bounces. US Open isn't that fast. I got 2 eyes and I see players that grew up on hard courts and therefore are more comfortable going for their shots on hard courts than grass. Nadal and many clay courters are more disadvantaged on hardcourts than grass.
     
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  14. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Bad bounces exist on grass, skidding is there, and when the ball catches the line (which it frequently does on when serving) it does weird things. Take into account that it is much harder to move on grass quickly then it is on a HC, you can tell why it is much harder to return a big serve on grass then HC, where the more uniform bounce along with better footing helps alot.


    The ball stays low on grass. It doesn't on clay. It doesn't skid. It kicks up, meaning it's much slower. The clay absorbs more of the pace of the ball then grass does.



    The U.S. Open isn't fast? Get your eyes checked.

    You are saying this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpflSU_Yvps


    Isn't faster then this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3t7IgEAlW8


    You've got to be kidding. By simple physics the U.S. Open is FASTER then Wimbledon. Wimbledon only PLAYS faster because the grass before made the ball stayed much lower and skidded. Wimbledon has more friction due to the grass and the grass itself absorbs more pace, resulting in lower ball speeds. The ball when it hits the surface at the U.S. Open ricochets off.

    By your logic I can declare the AO surface the fastest because we were seeing record amount of aces and winners being hit. Federer had career high aces, so did Roddick. Kohlschrieber had to hit triple the amount of winners than he ever has. Tsonga hit ridiculous amounts of winners. Does that make the AO surface the fastest? Simple answer, NO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2008
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  15. simi

    simi Hall of Fame

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    After the Spanish Boycott ten years or so ago, AELTC has changed the seed formulation in a deliberate attempt to slow down the grass courts at Wimbledon. No secret in that. Henman has also complained about them opening the ball cans two weeks prior to the tournament started. Was he just lying?

    It would be nice to see Rafa "pull a Borg". He is definitely being helped by the court surface. The present court surface suits his game much better than the grass ten or fifteen years ago.
     
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  16. wangs78

    wangs78 Hall of Fame

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    Does this mean that Nadal will break Fed 5 times instead of 6 times at Wimbledon?
     
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  17. The Pure One

    The Pure One Rookie

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    Yes, the 2008 AO was on hard court. So yes, could be one of the fastest. At least more fater than R. Ace (used to be).
     
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  18. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    One thing grass does though is make you play safer from the baseline. That is the difference between hard and grass as though you get more free points from your serve, you also have to take lower risk shots. That is the main difference I see between those 2 videos. Federer was also playing out of his mind in that 2005 US Open.
     
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  19. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    I will wait till i see the draw.The grass will be greener and not bashed up like it was in the final.I doubt he loses in the first round but it wouldnt surprise me if he played a 5 set match along the way.
     
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  20. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Makes you play safer from the baseline? Federer was ripping the CRAP out of the ball against Nadal, but the ball sat up and allowed Nadal time to get the ball back. Agassi had NO TIME to react to anything Federer hit at him. The grass takes topspin nicely now, which allows you plenty of time to react and slow the game down.


    I'm sorry, you just need to be a little less biased in your analysis. It's obvious that you just want to make Nadal an ultra god like Bjorn Borg, when he's really not. Borg did a feat that nobody else has done, he won on both the slowest clay, and the fastest grass, back to back for consecutive years. It doesn't get much better then that.


    ALTEC was stupid and listened to everyone and slowed the grass down to give clay court players a chance. I don't see the French Tennis Federation speeding up the courts at Roland Garros to give S&V or HC players a chance.
     
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  21. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    Amen NamRamger.How i wish this thing was sped up.Thats what ticks me off.Learn how to play on other surfaces instead of toying with them!!!
     
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  22. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Nadal is much better defensively than Agassi. Nadal doesn't try to take everything early (which makes it look faster) and he is farther behind the baseline. Nadal makes the surface look slower because of his speed and height of the ball. It is easier for Fed to hit a flat shot than a shot with a lot of spin. Add the occasional bad bounce and it is even harder to take the ball early on Nadal for Fed on grass. Fed got a lot of free points on his serve including 22 aces. That is a lot against Nadal.
     
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  23. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    Hey freak, 22 aces on grass is nothing new for Federer.Nadal is not gonna be playing defense on grass as much because its not clay although the surface still played slow for him.I am sure he wants it more slower because thats the only chance he stands at wimbledon against Fed if they somehow meet again.
     
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  24. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Tim Henman, who was a 4 time semi-finalist will be the first to tell you that ALTEC completely destroyed grass. Before, the kick serve was nowhere near as effective, and the ball cut through the surface better. Now, with ALTEC opening balls early, and the stiffer grass which allows cleaner and higher bounces, it's a shadow of it's former self. Wimbledon was the last tournament where S&V was a winning strategy. Clay court players ruined it by complaining that they couldn't compete there. ALTEC listened to them and ruined it.


    Nadal's spin was obviously bothering Federer, on GRASS. How is it that Nadal's topspin is suddenly more effective on grass then it is on HCs? A little ridiculous no?



    You are trying to run around the question here. Agassi had no time to react, period. No way would Nadal have any chance of getting to any of those balls that Federer was hitting at the U.S. Open, because it's going way too fast for him to handle. On this new grass, he has much more time because the ball has slowed down tremendously in years past.


    Anyone with two eyes will tell you how fast the ball is moving between those two videos. It's PAINFULLY obvious that the U.S. Open has become much faster then Wimbledon. Every professional player will tell you that. John Mac will tell you, Tim Henman, anyone who has played on the old grass will tell you.
     
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  25. pound cat

    pound cat G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal has be in TWO Wimbledon finals! And some people say he can't
    play on grass? Unbelivable.




    PS did you watch his singles match to-day? (Wed.) I did. He's still playing great.
     
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  26. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    They say that because they want Wimbledon to be as fast as it used to be. They are biased just like you. I didn't dismiss that they slowed it down. Ivo Karlovic was complaining that the US Open was not fast enough last year. Fed was hitting lines in that video so I agree if Fed plays like that against Nadal, Nadal couldn't get to them. Nadal's topspin does work better on grass because the bounces are less predictable.
     
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  27. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Ivo Karlovic complaining the USO isn't fast enough? Are you kidding me? The surface is already the fastest outdoor court there is. The only courts faster then the USO right now are indoor courts, mainly carpet.



    I am not biased. Grass should return to it's old roots. Did the French Tennis Federation all of a sudden used a different clay to make it easier for HC and Grass players to win the FO? No. ALTEC shouldn't have to adjust it's grass either.
     
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  28. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    I could send these Nadal fans a tape of the final last year.That ball was sitting up so high for Nadal and the rallies resembled Roland Garros.Grass is up about 3 to 5 rallies and the point is over.There where points in the match where Nadal dictated the points which is a joke.Nobody dictates points on grass against Fed.
     
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  29. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Hilarious. Put Nadal on true grass against Mac for one set and he (Mac) would toy with him. Literally.
     
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  30. Sounds like you might have too much of an emotional attachment to somebody in particular...

    I cannot believe the complete and utter disdain by some people towards Nadal...
     
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  31. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    Plz, nobody is taking nothing from Nadal but some truths need to be told.You Nadal fans are the ones that seemed to be blinded by your FO wins.Nadal rules at the FO but anything more then that is absurd.The guy hasnt won anything besides that when it comes to GSs.
     
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  32. pound cat

    pound cat G.O.A.T.

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    You mean Mac could beat Federer in 5 sets like Fed beat Nadal did last year? Get serious.

    Even Jonhny Mac would be laughing if he read your post.


    And what does a 45 year old tennis player have to do with this discussion anyway?
     
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  33. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    One set on real grass, Mac beat Nadal. He consistently has competitive sets against top 20 players.


    Put Nadal against Sampras on real grass, it wouldn't even be close.
     
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  34. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    Johny Mac is a big Nadal fan but he would tell u otherwise.The guy is so up and down with his remarks.I expect Mac to say that Nadal will win wimbledon.The guy makes sense half the time and the other times he is clueless.
     
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  35. pound cat

    pound cat G.O.A.T.

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    Just like us on the message board. Only MacEnroe has a better undersatanding of tennis. LOL
     
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  36. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    I dont know about that even though he does ok with the broadcast.It seems like he wants Nadal to take that number 1 spot and i dont think thats happening.
     
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  37. jjk20

    jjk20 Rookie

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    I liken Nadal to the Williams at Wimbledon. more vulnerable in the earlier rounds than the later ones.
     
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  38. el sergento

    el sergento Hall of Fame

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    I agree tha the USO is now faster than Wimby but comparing a 30+ yo Agassi to a 20 yo Nadal, regardless of surface, doesn't prove anything.

    In the videos it's very obvious that Fed can't flatten out his shots as easily against Nadal because of the high bounce, whereas against Agassi he's hitting off lower flatter shots that he can unload off from the hips.

    Also, bare in mind that Rafa's shots move in the air and are harder to time because they will vary depending on the amount of spin. Agassi's shot's are like clockwork and Fed was timing the ball perfectly.

    So yeah, the USO is faster than Wimby but your vid's don't really demonstrate that.
     
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  39. el sergento

    el sergento Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, time for a reality check. Mac never, ever had to face the high bounce Rafa produces. If Fed has trouble up high on his backhand Mac wouldn't stand a chance. Even on true grass Rafa's spin would still be very hard to play. It would be very hard for Mac to chip off that much topspin and charge the net.
     
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  40. simi

    simi Hall of Fame

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    Just for the record, it's "AELTC" (All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club), not "ALTEC".
     
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  41. ksbh

    ksbh Banned

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    Likewise, put prime Federer against prime Sampras on real grass and Federer doesn't stand a chance. So what's your point?! You're comparing 2 eras. We're talking Federer-Nadal and in my opinion, Nadal is a good matchup on grass against Federer. You Federer fans are in denial.

     
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  42. Vision84

    Vision84 Hall of Fame

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    Thats not the issue. The issue is whether Nadal would be good competition on a real grass court. Wimbledon is to slow and high bouncing to be considered real grass.
     
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  43. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    Plz, a prime Fed could hang with a prime sampras on real grass.Fed has the weapons on grass against Pete not Nadal.
     
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  44. Nadal_Monfils

    Nadal_Monfils Semi-Pro

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    How do Roddick and Gasquet seem to do so well on the "slow and high bouncing grass?" Everyone is just trying to underestimate Nadal's accomplishments at Wimbledon because they don't like him.
     
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  45. ucrctennis

    ucrctennis Rookie

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    :rolleyes:
    It's not like Federer beat Sampras on real grass the only time they played. The match up between Nadal and Sampras would be much worse for Nadal than it would be for Federer.
     
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  46. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Nadal's lefty serve would be quite good on any type of grass. Hard to break him. Face it Fed fans. Nadal is quite good on grass.
     
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  47. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Gasquet was never a great grass player in the first place. His best results have been on clay and slow HCs, as evidenced to his runs at tournaments like MC, Hamburg, and Toronto. He won two grass titles at Nottingham, one of the weakest tournaments. His game doesn't suit the grass in the first place outside of his tremendous backhand.



    Roddick struggles on the grass much more then he did before. His serve was visibly less effective then it once was before. It's obvious in the past two years, it is much slower.
     
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  48. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Clay is Gasquet's worst surface. Get that in your brain. Grass is his best.
     
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  49. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    Right. How about 2001, Sampras reigning Wimbledon champ, against Federer who is 2 years away from winning his first slam.
     
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  50. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Outside of his one Wimbledon semi (which he shouldn't have been in, considering Roddick choked big time), he has been most consistent on clay. You are wrong. His most consistent clay tournament is at MC where he feels no pressure in Paris.



    He has two grass titles playing against double specialists in the final, in an incredibly weak field. To think he's a grass specialist is absolutely hilarity. That's like saying Chang's best surface is clay because he won the FO, when in all reality his most consistent results came from American HCs. The value of Gasquet's two titles at Nottingham is insignificant, considering hardly anyone good plays in that tournament. He has done well at certain major tournaments, such as Monte Carlo(QF, SF), Hamburg (where he reached a final), and Toronto (Final). Sure it's nice to win titles, but it's much better to reach the finals or go deep in a major tournament like a Master Series tournament.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
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