Nadal time-wasting gem

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by TheFifthSet, Dec 28, 2009.

  1. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I don't see federer,murray,roddick,davydenko etc wasting time between points.

    Neither did sampras,agassi,courier etc do the same

    There is a reason why the rules are in place , they are meant to be followed !
     
  2. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    my views on your post:

    so far so good

    takes 35 seconds to place himself in position to serve! 35 seconds..

    if by any chance it was necessary i have no doubts that nadal would do that to a player (anyone)
     
  3. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    While on a base level I agree with you,what does it say about the authorities of the sport if they don't crack down on time wasters? Or the fans,why don't the fans boo Nadal,Djoker and so on if they feel like they are taking too long? It's not like this is the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. It is a known problem yet so few people seem to adress it. Most people around tennis accept it and move on.
     
  4. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    If we are talking about this clip which I used for reference:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwvgnYDTTQ0
    , then the umpire yells time around the 8 second mark,Nadal sprints a bit out of his chair and around the 30 second mark he start the ball bouncing part of his routine when someone tells him that soderling isn't there,soderling who conveninently waited for Nadal to do all these things before going to get a racket. I wonder how soderling found at last that there were new balls. Did the umpire tell him,did the ball boys whisper to him? Or did he know,forgot for a while and remembered when Nadal got to the baseline to serve?
    Knowing Robin's personality he probably wanted to play some mind games with Nadal in the beginning of the decider.

    It is NEVER necessary to do such a thing to another player whom you respect. In this situation Nadal was played for the fool,even the commentators were laughing that he started the serve motion but there was no one to serve to. When he was near the baseline and looking up Soderling was there,when he put his head down to start the motion Soderling was rummaging through his bag looking for a racket as if he was alone on court.

    Like I said,mind games.
     
  5. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    well... i guess we will have to respectfully disagree. you opinion is valid but just like mine is based on a premise :"i got a feeling that"

    you got a feeling that sod did it on purpose.

    i got a feeling that he did it with no intentions to upset nadal.

    until we find some evidence to tell us otherwise, it's about what you, me and anyone here in TTW feels that episode was.

    hopefully one day Soderling's bio will state the real reason why he did it at that moment and what were is intentions



    ok by you?
     
  6. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Fine by me,I wasn't trying to impose my opinions on you,I was just stating them.
     
  7. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    i didnt say you were. we are\were debating and when within rules, it's perfectly fine to try and convince others of a different view! :)
     
  8. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    Before we start deflecting the blame on to the umpire or the crowd, first question that needs to be asked is what does it say about Nadal who knows that a rule is in place(regardless if it's duly enforced or not or tolerated by the crowd), that he keeps doing it with that knowledge and seems to get upset when he gets called on it at times?
     
  9. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    We can talk about this certain incident and analyze every section of it but what you need to be reminded of is that this is later in the match, that Nadal has been doing this for years. Soderling going to get a new racket was maybe not only because of the new balls but his "retaliation" to Nadal for his time wasting. He saw it an opportunity to show Nadal how it is to make the other player wait. Then Rafa decided to be funny and cute and his cheekiness backfired and Nadal acts like "how dare he do that?". For a champion and a great tennis player, Nadal needs to be mindful of some of the things he does out there. He can curb it, like he can manage his schedule better.
     
  10. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Nadal's serve got slower over the years because his OCD developed and he started doing more on more things in his pre-serve rituals. When did Nadal get repeatedly called out on it? He got called out by umpires a few times and that was it,they dropped the issue.

    Honestly,I don't think Nadal thinks about the time limit rule when he plays. He knows that HE HAS to do his bit(cause of the OCD,including butt picking and water bottle arrangement) in order to keep his calm and lose any anxiety he might have and he stays in his own world while the match is underway. Nadal's OCD developed when he started doing some things to keep his nerves under check when he was younger but as you can see it developed into quite a complicated spectacle and not a particularly pleasing one at that.

    Nadal got upset because umpires called him out on it. It was funny to me. He kept doing his stuff,serving slow,he got a warning,then for a couple of balls,he still did his things but he did them a bit faster,but not by much. One or two games service games later he went back to his old ways and the umpires didn't mind or just gave up on him.

    Until Nadal cures his OCD,this will not go away in his case. Either that or umpires can penalise him every other point and show him the time as proof(I'm guessing they do have a watch,right?). Maybe that will prompt him to get some help.
     
  11. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    It's funny how your statements can be so blind sometimes. First off, what makes you think Soderling respects Nadal? Two, did you ever think that some pros might take Nadal's time wasting habits and antics disrespectful to them?
     
  12. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    But is it necessary? So many posts for such a small thing. Actually, most people don't care about that. That's the truth. I'm surprised to see all the fuss around this. Nadal has OCD when he plays. Like many players, but his are more visible than average. So, he picks his butt? Fine, it could be embarrassing for him. If he's ok with it, no problem. He takes a little too much time? He's not the first player to do that. Lendl was already a specialist. And there have been worse, I think.
     
  13. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    Repeatedly is getting called out on it more than once. If Nadal doesn't realize that part of what Soderling did was to point that out then Nadal is thick. I have seen that DC video against Roddick and he only bounced the ball a couple of times. You can keep shading under the umbrella of OCD but the fact remains that Nadal knows about it, has been called on it and keeps doing it. Stop deflecting onto the umpire and the fans for a bit because it's Nadal who has control over his actions. He does these things because he chooses to do it.
     
  14. Rippy

    Rippy Hall of Fame

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    He can pick his butt all he wants - that's not breaking a rule.

    His time-wasting, however, is breaking rules. I don't care who else does it - they're breaking the rules too, but this thread is about NAdal.

    EDIT: And about that OCD thing, look at that exhibition video P_Agony posted. Nadal certainly was serving faster in that.
     
  15. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    OCD means that you have no control over it,it becomes almost like a reflex,something you need to do in order to reduce anxiety even though in reality you don't need to do it. When the umpires warned him,he still did the rituals(which a non OCD player shouldn't do) but he was prompted to do them faster and it only lasted for a few minutes.
    If you are talking about the DC video of 2004 against Roddick then you know that Nadal didn't have these things in 04' but as his OCD progressed he started adding more and more things to his routine. As he didn't get any help,it got worse.

    I could understand using OCD as a disguise for time wasting in Nadal's but why choose to incorporate such embarrassing things into your routine as butt picking or water bottle arrangement. Does Nadal willingly embarass himself in front of millions watching just to get a few more seconds in on the serve or on the bench? They even asked him one time about it and he answered that he is trying really hard to get over it. Like I said,he was probably anxious as a teenager on court,somehow this tics if you will started and he started adding more and more rituals in order to calm himself down and focus but at the same time he was wasting more and more time.

    We are talking about a guy who was leading soderling by 11 games to 1 in Rome and his main concern was arranging the labels on the bottles to face the direction in which he is playing in as if he was in some kind of tight situation.

    If he adresses this issue,he will cut out some of these rituals and thus will go faster.

    @Rippy,Nadal has a mild form of OCD,which means that these "things" help him drown out feeling of anxiety(in his case in a match situation),in an exo where you play for kicks there is no such thing(what's there to be anxious about if there are no stakes),that is why he doesn't do these things there.
    What Nadal is doing is the very definition of OCD: doing repetitive things who don't really serve any purpose other than to reduce anxiety. No one needs to towel off at every point,arrange their hair,arrange their underwear,arrange their water bottles and so on but these are compulsions which he finds hard to let go.
     
  16. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    It really doesn't matter if it is OCD or just a superstition.

    Nadal taking over the 20-25seconds is cheating and has given him an unfair advantage numerous times.

    A few points determine the outcome of some of these matches, and there is not a shadow of a doubt that Nadal has gotten a mental edge over opponents by simply taking so long to serve.

    Whether he is doing it on purpose or because of mental illness doesn't matter it is cheating.
     
  17. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    He did not ask him if he wanted a new racket. We say new balls as a courtesy if the server doesn't hold them up. When the umpire said new balls, it dawned on Soderling to get a new racket because he does that. The umpire DID NOT ask him if he wanted to get another.
     
  18. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    The pace has to be reasonable. If the server is serving at 5 seconds or so for the whole match, and the receiver is fine with it, then that is considered reasonable. However, if the server is serving at 12 seconds or so for the match, then all of a sudden wants to serve at 5-6 seconds between points, that isn't reasonable.

    Also, where do you see an umpire telling the server that the receiver has the full 20 seconds to whoever made that quote?

    In Collegiate tennis though, the receiver has the full 20 seconds.
     
  19. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    I think it was Nadal versus Agassi in Montreal where the Umpire said that Nadal has a certain amount of time in between points (20 seconds or so). I'm not completely sure though, but it was something to that extent.
     
  20. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    That's funny, Nadal has OCD yet he stopped his time wasting rituals very quickly after the Umpire gave him a time violation in the middle of the 4th set TB in the Wimbledon 2008 final.




    Or maybe Nadal just ups the amount of time wasting during important points. Heck, I don't mind if he wasted 5-10 seconds, even 15 seconds. But this guy literally wastes 30 seconds to a minute repeatedly in a single match. And he knows about his time wasting habits, because people talk about it all the time. Yet, he has done absolutely ZERO to fix it at all.
     
  21. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    No, people generally don't care, except when it's Nadal. I don't know why.
     
  22. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Yes people do care, watch how many people complain when Del Potro or Djokovic waste time.
     
  23. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    Maybe because he needs it for his own concentration. Everyone is different. Some players like to rush, and it puts their opponent under big pressure, some players like to take their time to concentrate.
     
  24. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    Not as many complainers.
     
  25. Serve_Ace

    Serve_Ace Professional

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    So when is it considered breaking the rules? Maybe an hour? Get real, the world doesn't revolve around them. They still need to follow the rules. Maybe he takes the time because he's spoiled and he's used to getting everything his way. Sure he can put on an act when he loses, who can't?
     
  26. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Plenty of complainers, when Djoker did his 15-20 bounce serve routine.
     
  27. Lsmkenpo

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    So, only Nadal's concentration is important, let's screw the other player over, but give Nadal as much time as he needs to get his concentration set?
     
  28. reversef

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    Treated as the biggest cheater of all time? And Del Potro as well?
     
  29. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Nadal has played more matches on the biggest stages,than both those two combined, take away your bias and look at it objectively.

    Nadal has gotten away with it for years, Djoker stopped his ball bouncing routine, Nadal has done nothing to stop with his time wasting.

    I see Del potro doing it because he has poor conditioning.
     
  30. Wakenslam

    Wakenslam Rookie

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    I agree that the pace of the game has slowed too much, and guys go to the towel WAY too often. In Nadal's defense, you're pointing out a delay before match point. Surely you can understand why he would take his time.
     
  31. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You don't get it do you? Whether if Andre took 10 or 20 seconds to serve, Rafa has to be ready to return. He can't disrupt Andre's rhythm by making Andre wait for him everytime he's ready to serve. Rafa does not have a right to dictate how long the server can serve between points!!!

    Nadal cheat on his serve and the worst part is he's doing on the receiving end. Very poor gamemanship.
     
  32. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Nadal has been the most consistent in breaking the rules doing it for years, in some of the biggest matches ever played, at the biggest moments, so what is the problem?

    Biggest time waster on tour = Nadal,

    Going over the time limit is cheating,whether intentional, or because of mental illness.

    So, yes Nadal is the biggest cheater on tour no doubt about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
  33. ninman

    ninman Hall of Fame

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    You know instead of all this *****ing, whining and arguing on a forum, I say we do something about it. Lets start a petition and send it to the ATP saying that we the tennis fans have had enough and that the time rules be enforced strictly and consistently, and that rather than giving players like Nadal repeated warnings, start giving him penalty points, games, until a default.

    Btw, I also consider arguing with the umpire as time wasting, so if you're unhappy about something and you want to argue you still have 20 seconds to serve.
     
  34. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    First of all, at ATP events, it's 25 seconds not 20.

    Secondly, there are no game penalties or defaults for time violations.

    Thirdly, if it's enforced strictly and consistently, then you have to start giving time violations almost every time a player breaks a string, every time there is a long point and long applause, heavy wind gusts, etc. Can you honestly say that would be more entertaining to watch?
     
  35. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    It's much worse, isn't it?

    I look at it objectively, and I still don't see so much to make a fuss about it. I understand that some players would like a faster pace. I understand that the public can find the time too long, but the idea of cheating and doing it to disturb his opponent is not understandable at all. Picking one's butt to gain time, no way. You can see that all those rituals are in his nature. The towel? Look at Nadal: he sweats buckets. He needs it more than other player, actually.
     
  36. ninman

    ninman Hall of Fame

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    Rules are rules, maybe there can be some umpire discretion, but the players are already going overboard. For example stopping for drinks after game 1 of a set, or 6 points in a tiebreaker, when they are supposed to just walk around the net and keep playing. What is the punishment for repeated time violations?
     
  37. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Yes taking time at big points is OK, as long as it is not past the time allotted as fair, which is 20-25 seconds depending if it is an ATP event or a major,
    beyond 20-25 sec becomes an advantage to the server because it freezes the receiver to make them wait beyond that time.
     
  38. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Woodrow agrees that people waste far too much time sometimes, however there's nothing that can be done.
     
  39. reversef

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    :shock:

    Haters are even more biased than fans.:)
     
  40. woodrow1029

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    The first one is a warning. Each subsequent is a point penalty.
     
  41. ninman

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    Sure there is, start giving out penalty points or defaults.
     
  42. ninman

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    So then the umpires need to start doing that, players like Nadal will speed up quickly when they start losing 2 or 3 points a game for time violations.
     
  43. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    That is because you are looking at it as a fan, if you looked at as a competitor you would understand more clearly.

    Waiting to receive longer than 20-25 seconds gives an unfair advantage to the server, do you agree or not?
     
  44. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    I am an international chair umpire. As NamRanger says, I have made the point that I agree it needs to be enforced more at times. But, if you start getting too strict on it, you are going to get the totally opposite argument from people on the other side of it, and in the end, it's much better to let the players decide the match with their racket, and not have the umpire get too involved with something like time violations.

    I think for it to be enforced more, that it would be good to make the limit 30 seconds. Then it is more reasonable in high heat conditions.
     
  45. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    I think raising the time limit to 35-40 seconds and than strictly enforcing it would ensure that everyone stays within the time limit and does not constantly abuse the rule. I think if you take more than 35-40 seconds to serve/receive than you are very likely wasting time.
     
  46. ninman

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    I don't care what you say, it's a rule and therefore needs to be followed, strictly and consistently and if it's broken it needs to be punished strictly and consistently. I don't care what other people say about it, it is the way it is now, and if they don't like it being enforced properly then change it. This is a game, and it's one of the rules of play, so other people who can't handle and umpire following the rules of the game need to get over it.

    Take snooker for example, they have a rule in snooker called the miss rule, which is one of the most over enforced and hated rules in the game, it is complained about by fans and players alike, but guess what when it comes to playing the umpires enforce it strictly and the players follow it strictly. The same applies to tennis. It is there in the rule book, so as a player be honourable and follow it strictly, and as an umpire be honourable and enforce it strictly.
     
  47. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    That's a good point. Sometime on a certain circumstance, time between serve is necessary to extend longer than 25 seconds. If a player fell, or broke a string, then he should ask the umpire permission for more time. However, on a normal situation, players should have the habit playing within the time limit, and play at the pace of the server. Players like Rafa take to an extreme by going over 40/50 seconds is too long.
     
  48. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    How can you compare Snooker to a guy playing in a grand slam final in 90 degree heat with swirling wind in front of 23,000 people.

    Then you enforce a rule like a foot fault at a crucial part of the match, and then all the observers on one side of the argument say that the umpire shouldn't have made the call. You have no clue.
     
  49. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    How about they take it off the umpire to enforce the rule using their own discretion, and just have a 30 second shot clock. That would be fair to both players and keep the match moving at a decent pace. The umpire would simply start the clock at the end of each point. They could have a clock at each end of the court.
     
  50. ninman

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    Those are the conditions of the game, the rules are there to be enforced, these guys are professional athletes, if they can't deal with it then they shouldn't be playing tennis, and if they stand too close to the line they will be foot faulted.

    At all times you have to just ask yourself one question, is this within the rules of the game? If the answer is no then something needs to be done about it. I should also add that the particular point in a game or a match makes no difference, if there is a violation it will be punished according to the rules. They are all professionals and they all know the rules and they need to behave like professionals and accept the umpires decision instead of crying like spoiled babies, and the fans need to do the same.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009

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