Natural Gut Faceoff: Pacific Classic 17 vs. Klip Legend 17

Discussion in 'Strings' started by haderech, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. haderech

    haderech New User

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    These strings have the same price, but different specs. The USRSA has stats available (for non-members) for both of them, which I will cite here.

    Since I could not find a more recent rating than 2000, when Pacific Classic won by overall score, and no playtest/rating of the Klip, it is time for a scientific survey of our learned community.

    Please rate each string, on a scale of 10, in the following categories: 1) Playability, 2) Durability, and 3) Comfort. It is not necessary you have played with both. Please add comments to your ratings.

    The stats on each is as follows:

    Pacific Classic 17 Klip Legend 17
    Gauge: 1.28 1.27

    Stiffness: 92 113
    (lbs/in)

    Tension
    loss (lbs): 6.39 9.31

    By the way, if you are a USRSA member and have access to information other than what is here, please share it.

    Pacific is apparently coated with a durability enhancing glaze, while the Klip is not. This may lead you to conclude that the Pacific has less feel; however, it is less stiff. So the success of this post really depends on your ratings.
     
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  2. haderech

    haderech New User

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    addendum

    1) "Tension loss" means approximate overall loss

    2) Please submit your rating on 10 accurate to two decimal places, because ratings might be close.
     
    #2
  3. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    They are two completely different feeling forms of natural gut, neither is probably better then the other.

    Thus a popularity contest on the subject is meaningless.

    Klip is one of the most crisp natural gut strings there are, and it's completely different then the supposed holy grail of gut VS. But some people enjoy that because they like a crisper feeling string.

    I think the interest point in Pacific would be if it's NOT like Klip and maybe was closer to VS in feel (since it's rated to be softer), then at a lower price that would encourage some people to buy it.

    Asking to have a popularity contest is not the same as having a "scientific survey". They already did the "scientific study", it's the one you are getting the stiffness and tension loss numbers from.
     
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  4. haderech

    haderech New User

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    hmmm.

    A popularity contest is not what I'm looking for. Thus the ratings - i.e. as you claim Klip is crisper, then most would rate that as less comfortable than Pacific, and less playable, for a given tension. Scientific means methodical, in this case.

    Anyway, you claim Pacific is closer to VS in terms of feel and playability?
     
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  5. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    I don't see this as a popularity contest. He's asking people to rate the two guts in a number of categories. The numerical ratings will be subjective, no doubt, but it's a valid way to try to compile an overall picture of people's opinions of these strings. The USRSA does a similar thing in their string tests.
     
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  6. haderech

    haderech New User

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    Maybe we can just scrap the complicated rating system, especially since it's only for two strings. Can you compare the two?
     
    #6
  7. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    I know they do and that's why those numbers are pretty much useless in most cases. (because they are subjective)

    There is no reason to have a survey on that. If you want to see that, use the search function on here, there are plenty of threads involving Klip and Pacific.

    The technical readings are probably more useful and we already know those. Generally something that rates as less stiff is more "comfortable", although all of the gut strings are no-where near any non-gut string so they are all more or less comfortable.
     
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  8. insiderman

    insiderman Rookie

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    you say; 'face-off' so using the hockey reference...I'd say (IMO) Klip is showing-up for the puck-drop without a stick~!
     
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  9. haderech

    haderech New User

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    re: hockey reference

    yeah it was a hockey reference. Thanks for the input.

    @ Javier: Please stop posting to this thread, as your only contribution is to snicker. My last word to you is simply to repeat your idiotic claim: ratings are subjective and therefore useless.

    Again, since there are no ratings currently available (as the rating system I have described above), the original purpose of this thread is to fill that gap.
     
    #9
  10. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Who are you the ratings fairy?

    They are useless. If you dont want to believe that then fine.

    Im sure the USRSA would agree with you as well since they get off on these ratings sometimes, but the technical data is probably more telling.

    The reasons why they are somewhat pointless is we do not know these people are, we do not know what sorts of strings they are used to using, thus any feedback they give us are sometimes subjective.

    (and other times they are tainted since they come from teaching pros and pro shop owners who many times are getting paid by the manufacture to sell certain products)

    Actually reading a lot of posts on here with descriptions of a string is more useful because you may better be able to figure out who it is giving the description and how much you choose to value their opinion.

    You cant do that with simple surveys so they are pretty much not really all that useful.

    But you probably dont feel like taking the time to do that, so you got lazy and you're asking for this survey because you want answers now!

    Good luck, you should figure out that as far as Pacific is concerned:

    1) You admit there is a gap. That's because it's not on anyone's radar.

    2) You obviously dont see tons of recent posts here about it. That's because it's a niche product that isnt going to get a whole lot of press, even here.

    3) You've gotten absolutely no response here as far as your poll. Which means that whoever's using Pacific is unlikely to see this.

    So what does that mean? It doesnt mean Pacific is bad by any means, but it does mean you'll probably have to dig a little deeper to figure out what it's all about. (or try it yourself, since YOU are the one who may be using it, what do you care what some survey says if you feel a certain way about it....)

    And you cant tell me to not to post or comment on your request anymore then you think you have some sort of right to expect someone to honor your request.

    You obviously haven't tried the strings yourself, so I dont see why you are asking for a survey of something that you cant even contribute too yourself. You popped in here to get help making a purchasing decision and you are being lazy and you expect us to do all the work.

    And whether you wanted to accept this or not, Im saying even if there wasnt a "gap", that's not going to help much anyway. Those survey's are usually just tools used by store owners so they can tout a certain string over another, and in a lot of cases. the big name brands seem to get favored. (which should say something about the people doing the survey)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2009
    #10
  11. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    You're saying that numerical ratings are useless because they're subjective. Well, they may be useless to you but that doesn't mean that everyone finds them useless.

    There are many areas of human endeavor where objective technical measurements are either not possible or cannot completely capture the essential qualities of something's (or someone's) performance. In many of these areas, people find it useful to try to capture subjective evaluations in numerical form so that comparisons can be more easily made. It's not perfect, but neither is relying on non-numerical evaluations.

    If he wants to do a survey, let him do a survey. You've voiced your objection. Why not leave it at that?
     
    #11
  12. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Tension loss

    What are corresponding numbers for tension loss for VS GUT 17?
    I could NOT find a corresponding table at anUSRSA Web site.A link would be helpful
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2009
    #12
  13. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    What is a definition of tension loss?

    What is a definition of tension loss?
     
    #13
  14. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Well Im just trying to help the poor lad out.

    I dont see you even following along with his ratings either. Have you tryed either string?

    Here is a good thread where some people talk about Pacific Classic and they mention Klip in it:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=287165&highlight=Pacific+Classic

    A simple search for "Pacific Classic" will probably find a lot more.

    If he wants numbers, he already has numbers, they are the ones on the technical data. If the survey turns out different (which it will because he's going to get a very low sample, check it out he has 0 samples so far), then you have to wonder the validity of the survey.

    And if the sample is large you have to wonder how much of it has to do with just pure brand usage. (a lot of strings are similar but if they feel the slightest bit different someone they will not prefer them, it's the same with racquets sometimes)
     
    #14
  15. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    Have you even heard what I've said? You keep insisting that the technical data are the only numbers that have validity and that he should rely solely on (non-numerical) comments to assess performance characteristics that can't be measured technically. That is your way of evaluating strings, but it's not the only way. And it seems to me that your unwillingness to accept that other people prefer other ways -- to the point that you take pot shots at and disparage them and their methodology -- says a lot about your intolerance of opinions and methodologies that differ from your own.

    And don't say you're "just trying to help the poor lad out." The tone you've taken from the get-go has been negative, superior and lacking in respect. Telling him he's doing this "useless" survey because he's too lazy to read people's comments is just plain rude, in my view.

    He's new here. I don't see that he's done anything wrong. You've been around for much longer. I'd like to see you present your arguments much more politely and treat him much more kindly and respectfully.
     
    #15
  16. Giant Baba

    Giant Baba Banned

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    Is both brand making from same quality animal guts. Reason of prices higher and lower?
     
    #16
  17. stoble

    stoble Semi-Pro

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    I'd be very interested to try Klip Legend if it fairs well against the Pacific Classic. So far the only 2 gut strings I've tried are Pacific Classic 17 and Gaucho gut 16 (or 15L not sure). I've really loved the Pacific string and find it hard to imagine something performing much better. The bite on the ball is great, the sweetspot feels bigger, comfort is good, spin is good, touch and control are great, and even durability is great. Although I'm more of a flat ball hitter I've gotten over 17 hours of play from the Pacific string and it plays great the whole time.
     
    #17
  18. haderech

    haderech New User

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    responses

    @ Keifers: Thanks. My point exactly. My idea is to provide information useful to us (including myself). In trying to be as objective as possible in rating strings, this is one easy, short and simple way.

    What he also does not understand is that the USRSA numbers above do not capture the strings' playability, comfort, or durability. I gave a brief example of why in my first post.


    @ Julian:
    First: please read second post. In addition, "approximate" just means that the tension continues decreasing forever, but the approximate limit is such. I believe the reference tension is 62 lbs.

    Second:
    Babolat VS Team Thermogut 17

    g: 1.26

    stiffness: 102

    Tension loss: 8.45

    http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/issues/200809/200809allstrings.html



    Some notes on USRSA's testing procedure:
    They take a short segment of a given string and perform their tensioning tests on it. Some argue that that is not representative of how a full stringbed will behave. Also, the way they determine tension loss is not clear, and thus should be taken as approximate. Remember that a denser stringbed will result in less tension loss, generally. But, I do not know what stringbed they are talking about - they probably do not take a stringbed into account but take their measurements from the tested segment of string.
     
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  19. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    You have the same issues with any survey. If not, you wouldnt be asking for another one 9 years after there already was one, it's not like the strings have changed any.

    That's the whole thing about survey's when you keep doing them over and over again they change drastically which pretty much proves they are sort of pointless...
     
    #19
  20. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    I suppose you say that about anyone who says anything out of the norm. You're disparaging MY viewpoint, especially since you really have no value to the topic anyway.

    It's generally frowned upon by many for someone to show up brand new and start asking questions that have been answered a million times before. People mention to use the search function all the time. (usually I just ignore it)

    But to ask for a whole entire survey for something that isnt even going to get enough samples is pointless, I dont care how many times you want to say "it's just someone's way of doing it", it's pointless versus just using the search function. (did you even try to read anything I wrote on the subject or are you too busy being the message board nanny?)

    There is nothing "scientific" about these survey's. The fact that they change from year to year to year proves that they are just as useful as a popularity contest.

    Maybe you dont want to except that, and he doesnt want to accept that, but too bad.

    If you read my first post, I didnt do anything wrong either. I can prove it's as good at a popularity contest and I think we were fine with each other at that until you had to stick your nose in it. (I was done with my point, I think we had a fairly civil exchange including him asking what I thought about one of the strings, etc....., but you had to go whining for him as if I did something wrong because perhaps you are pretty fragile yourself.)

    Then I replyed to YOU, and he claimed I should not post in his thread as if it's his own personal property. That's not happening.

    What I saw is my opinion, this is a message board, if you cant accept that and you cant have a debate without getting your feelings hurt or being fragile about it, or sticking your nose in it just to be someone's nanny, then you should get off the Internet.
     
    #20
  21. haderech

    haderech New User

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    let me make something clear to you, Javier. In case you haven't noticed, I am not some noob that didn't do his research before posting here. I was also well aware of the thread you posted (it was on the first page wasn't it?) and many more. It and the others were not satisfactory for neither string, especially Klip, in many respects. I resisted posting this particular response because I have nothing to justify to you, but in the interest of keeping this thread from being hijacked by your stupidity, I am compelled to. Keifer was trying to do the same. I asked you to stop posting your sneering, substanceless input, for obvious reason.
     
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  22. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    OK, have it your way, Javier. You seem to have some kind of peeve against surveys -- and a very unfortunate way of expressing yourself.

    I'll let my words speak for me -- and your words speak for you.
     
    #22
  23. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    Hope you don't mind a suggestion... Start another thread. If he posts there, respond by referring people to this thread. And ignore him. Hopefully you'll get some input from others. If he persists in his badgering, do not respond to him, but do report his behavior to the moderators.


    P.S. Suggest you drop the request for numerical ratings to 2 decimal places. :)
     
    #23
  24. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Power pads

    I was told yesterday that power pads can LIMIT a tension loss.
    Any comments?
     
    #24
  25. 2handsbothsides

    2handsbothsides Semi-Pro

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    I was actually hoping to read some comments on how Klip Legend plays in comparison to Pacific Classic.
     
    #25
  26. peli_kan

    peli_kan Rookie

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    Same. How disappointing.
     
    #26
  27. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

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    Would have been nice to see some responses. Could have avoided all the drama.

    However, I think trying to do this survey here was kind of pointless.

    I think there would have been more responses if this was just a post asking for subjective opinions.
     
    #27
  28. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    I've played with both so here is my unscientific comparison of Pacific Classic 17 and Klip Legend 17 (coated). I'm not a string breaker, and one of the things I like about natural gut is that it lasts a long time, and maintains tension and playability for a long time. For me, the biggest difference is that the Pacific maintains tension and playability better than Klip Legend. They both feel a little stiff when freshly strung. For me, they both "break in" after about 3 hitting sessions or matches. Since I don't break strings often, I can usually use gut until it breaks. However, with Klip, I found that I had to cut it out before it broke because it loses more tension than some other brands of gut. The Pacific seems to be maintaining tension very well. I'm still using some Pacific Classic 17 that I strung in July.
     
    #28
  29. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, that's like the most useful information Ive ever seen on the subject.

    Have you used VS as well? Ive used Klip and I could tell it was really crisp compared to it. (compared to using Tonic+ as well which I felt was VERY similar to VS if you can get past the quality control)

    But I always wondered if Pacific was any closer, or closer to Klip in crispness.
     
    #29
  30. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    I have not used VS. I have used Babalot Tonic, and did not like it as well as BDE, Klip, or Pacific. But it's been a long time since I tried Tonic, so I can't remember why I didn't like it. I think Pacific Classic and Klip Legend play very similar when freshly strung. They both feel very crisp, IMO. But the Klip gets softer and softer the longer you use it. I strung one of my rackets with Klip Legend 17 on July 5th. It's pretty much unplayable now. But who can complain since that was 4 months ago.

    I used BDE for a long time. Not the Rally, but the Performance (I think was the name.) I really liked BDE, but it disappeared. So I switched to Klip Legend 17. I was not unhappy with Klip Legend, but most places I buy from were out of stock early this fall. So I switched recently to Pacific Classic 17. I'm glad that I did, because I do like it better than Klip, as I explained in my previous post.

    Since I string my own rackets, I do like to experiment with strings. I'm going to bite the bullet and try some Babalot VS since I hear such great things about it. It's more than $40, but what the heck! I also recently order some Gaucho Gut 16. I haven't tried it yet, but will soon.

    IMO, all the natural gut strings are great and better than any synthetics. But it all comes down to personal preference really. I find that gut gives me more spin and power with less effort and less stress on my arm. Nothing else compares to gut IMO.
     
    #30
  31. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Thanks.

    I sort of suspected that Pacific was more like Klip. Id be interested to see what you find with VS, but I dont think it's really THAT different then Tonic+.

    I noticed that when I switched from Wilson Gut (which is almost identical to VS) to Klip, it was just a whole different kind of gut, so I could see where if someone loves Klip they may just not prefer the feel of VS. (because it's a lot softer, and not crisp at all and a lot more muted)

    I agree that all of them are better then any synthetic.
     
    #31
  32. kinsella

    kinsella Semi-Pro

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    I like them both the same.
     
    #32
  33. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    They do not. The only purpose power pads serve is to change the angle the gut takes when going around a sharp turn. With the advent of modern day grommets, they have been rendered virtually useless. They also do not lessen shock, or increase power.


    This is spot on. IME, Klip "bottoms" out way before it breaks. I find Pacific Classic is playable from day one to day last. Classic is not like VS, it is a firmer playing gut.

    Pacific Prime is very close to VS and probably a little more powerful. It, like VS, is buttery smooth and very easy on the arm. I would recommend, if you're using Prime or VS, to increase tension by at least 3 pounds.
     
    #33
  34. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    This is a very helpful thread (at least page 2 is). Others' experiences with natural gut can help one of us from wasting $30 on string (or $50 on a string job for those who do not string their own).
     
    #34
  35. Steve Huff

    Steve Huff Legend

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    I've use both, plus VS, Bow Brand, BDE, Tonic. I use Klip Legend now. The Pacific was a nice playing string. At a given gauge, it appears thinner, although I didn't measure it. It is softer, but I think the "feel" of Klip is more direct, easier to tell where the ball is going (although the difference is very minute). The reason I don't use Pacific is that I had some break, one before I played with it (racket in the bag), and another set after only a few hits. I've never had this problem with Klip. I even strung the racket in which the Pacific broke in the bag with Klip without replacing grommets etc, and it held up fine. Maybe I just got a couple of bad sets of Pacific, but when I'm stringing other people's rackets, I don't want to be replacing gut jobs at my cost. Klip may be a little firmer, but I get plenty of spin and touch (I normally string it with a multi in the crosses). Both are nice though. Sorry, no numerical values.
     
    #35
  36. levy1

    levy1 Hall of Fame

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    Poly for a USTA 3.5? What do you recommend?

    I love a stiff racquet and other then one tennis elbow bout after 35 years because I bought a Wilson 6.1 95 strung high I have never had any arm problems so arm problem is not the problem. I also use about 20 grams of lead tape and my racquets weight around 13-13.5 oz. I am a agressive USTA 3.5 61 young years.

    I am now trying new stiff racquets RA 67-71 strung at the bottom of tension. If I like the bottom range can I enhance the stiff feel by going some kind of poly for better bite and a harder feel?
    If so, which poly or poly setup would you recommend?
     
    #36
  37. basil J

    basil J Hall of Fame

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    I have tried pacific, klip, VS, Titan, BDE and prince gut( I think it is also BDE).
    I agree with the comments that klip is firmer playing than pacific, yet I find them both firm and they allow me to use them at a tensions closer to what I would use for synthetic than VS or BDE. Klip does go dead quicker than pacific and also frays more, but I have found that it also is more durable than pacific. I have never broken Klip, yet I have broken pacific classic.
    VS is easily the best, also the most powerful so I typically have to go up 4-6# higher than my synthetic set ups to retain equitable control. VS can last months for me it an 18 x 20, not quite as long in a 16 x 19 string bed.
    i am currently using BDE and initially struggled with it for the first few hours, but I think it has settled and I am enjoying it much better than the other day, where everything was flying long.
    If you can find the right tension, gut will last several times longer than a synthetic for me and is actually a better value.
    getting back to this direct comparison, IMO pacific is the better playing over klip, by a slim margin and Klip is more durable.
    I personally like VS or BDE better than either.
     
    #37
  38. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    Has anyone tried that Boris Becker Hero Nat. Gut?
     
    #38
  39. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Prince rackets and power pads

    It would worth talking about Speedport Prince rackets and power pads.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
    #39
  40. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    How many hours are you able to get out of gut?

    How many hours are u able to get from VS GUT 17 for a 16 X 19 string bed?
    Say that a STARTING TENSION is around 60 pounds
     
    #40
  41. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    both good strings
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
    #41
  42. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Why?

    Power pads don't do anything for speedport racquets either.
     
    #42
  43. basil J

    basil J Hall of Fame

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    I have gotten months of play out of 17' vs gut in a 16 x 19, If, I use string savers to minimize movement.
     
    #43
  44. wrxtotoro

    wrxtotoro Rookie

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    playability... pacific 9, klip 10
    durability... pacific 8, klip 10
    comfort... pacific 10, klip 8
     
    #44
  45. catfish

    catfish Semi-Pro

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    String Savers are a great way to lengthen the life of natural gut strings. I use string savers where I start to get wear or notches.
     
    #45

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