NCAA rule against USTA play?

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by CityTennis22, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. CityTennis22

    CityTennis22 Rookie

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    Hey guys, just kind if wondering if there's a rule stating that a Division 3 athlete currently on a roster can't play other organized sports while in season. I have a guy that wants to play on my USTA team, but he's currently in season. I've been told by another team captain that he can't play until Fall season is over because that puts his eligibility in danger to play. Is that actually true?
     
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  2. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    Well if you are wanting the player to play on 4.5 team he would be able to anyways unless he appealed down after self-rating at the minimum 5.0 required for any current D2, D3, JUCO college player.
    Also DII plays Fall and Spring Season. Player just needs to check with compliance officer
     
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  3. 86golf

    86golf Semi-Pro

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    I've seen it happen....even decently ranked D2 players on 4.5 rosters


     
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  4. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    Unless they had a rating before entering college Jlyon, thats how a lot of these players get away with it. I played a guy at 4.0 this year who was starting in the top 3 on a nationally ranked top 20 d3 program.
     
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  5. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Isn't this what its come to ? hey why not just go ahead and get D1 guys to come join your team ? that will get you that shiny silver plate that saids USTA win
     
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  6. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    There's DI guys playing USTA NTRP Team Tennis. Usually at the 5.0 level, sometimes lower. There's a new "I played this college player" story every year.

    JLyon is correct. Some 18 year olds, self-rate, then sign a LOI (which means nothing to the USTA NTRP), plays a season of team tennis, gets a computer rating, goes to college, plays college tennis, then shows back up next year and kicks ***.

    I believe that college players are not supposed to play USTA NTRP League Teamevents during their season, which is most of the school year. But many play a match or two anyway, or just wait until their season is over in the Spring to play USTA NTRP. Now I don't know this to be fact, but I've had two DII players tell me this.
     
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  7. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

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    Are you paying him to play on your team? Sounds more like the other captain doesn't want you to have a college player on your roster. There's no NCAA/ITA rule that would prohibit it but if the player is in-season he may not be allowed to play due to a team or department policy e.g. a lot of teams don't let players participate in intramurals because risk of injury.
     
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  8. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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  9. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    So if a current 4.0S Player, who is currently playing College Tennis, had a Sectional Ranking, would that get him a administrative bump to 5.0?

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ExperiencedGuidelines_02142011_V2pdf.pdf

    The 4.0S player I am speaking of had a Southern Sectional Ranking, but is there a website to simply send this link to the USTA to get this kid out of the 4.0 ranks?

    Anyone got a link to check a player for a Sectional Ranking? I found this kids, but it wasn't easy for me to find.

    The guideline doesn't specific what the ranking needs to be, so the guideline seems to indicate simply if the player has a Sectional ranking, and they are under 35 = hey, welcome to 5.0 Am I correct?

    Seems the USTA makes the guidelines, but they can't link the junior database with the Adult database which would stop this crap.
     
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  10. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    if he player is currently playing college tennis, then it should be automatic 5.0 rating but the player can appeal to Section, but a grievance must be filed showing the player is a current collegiate player
     
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  11. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    So after playing as a 3.5S last year under the shortened version, he signed a scholarship to play for a junior college. Sweet! :rolleyes: Seems he had already signed a scholarship at least by April 26, 2013 before his team went to the SC 4.0 State Championships

    There is a thread in the Adult Section that describes what the Captain of his 4.0 team did. Look at the his USTA teams this past spring. He wins on the good team, until the team was assured of going to State, while losing on the bad team.

    One lost was 0&0 to his 4.0C teammate on the good team as the two "fake" teams played each other. All but three of the players on the Spartanburg team that finished in second place at 4.0 State were one of the two last places teams in Greenville.

    I wonder if he appeals, if the USTA might care to look deeper into his match history. If they do, they will see how he seems to kick butt when he needed to, but loses every match that his team doesn't need to "manage" his rating. Maybe the USTA might close the loopholes for Captains who create fake teams in a place in close proximity (say Greenville and Spartanburg, SC) so the fake teams can be the place for players to tank matches while they advance their real teams to State and hopefully beyond.

    The USTA seems to turn a blind eye to this balant level of cheating. This 4.0 Spartanburg, SC team took tanking to a completely different level.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
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  12. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    He's 4.0B rated as of the year end ratings last week, so he's pretty much unassailable at this point. Sorry.
     
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  13. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    Not if he lied on the form on the Self-rating form.

    The Sectional Ranking overrides the 4.0S and -and 4.0B ranking. He had the Sectional Ranking before the 4.0S and 4.0B ratings.
     
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  14. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Nope. Once he gets a computer rating, it's water under the bridge. We had a guy around here who was an active D1 player (I.e. 5.5 minimum), and we were told the grievance needed to be filed before he got a computer rating, even though he self-rated after he was playing for the D1 team. Sorry.
     
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  15. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    Ok - thanks -

    A SC Grievance Committee member is aware of problems in the area in question. They are also aware of the player and captain. If nothing happens, so be it.

    Seems different Sections do things differently, and like Schemke posted in his blog, one league simply gave a guy an Administrative bump for what appeared to be a clear cut case of tanking.
     
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  16. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Tanking is different. Our section would take swift action against anyone they had proof was manipulating scores and/or ratings. The question about sectional rankings or college experience has nothing to do with tanking, that's a self-rating grievance over an incorrect self-rating. Once a player is no longer self-rated, you can't file a self-rating grievance against them no matter what they did. The theory is that even if they self-rated incorrectly, if they played honestly and got a computer rating, then the computer rating is accurate anyway. Tanking is a much more serious offense because it compromises the credibility of the computer rating that they consider definitive, and if you have proof, you likely have an action against the player and possibly the captain if you have proof he was involved, too. I don't know how far the USTA will consider a purely circumstantial case, though, if you don't have an admission or other hard evidence.
     
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  17. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    I guess in the end, it really doesn't matter. His team lost to a better, honest team.

    At least it seems the SC USTA office is aware of this team's antics. I didn't file any grievance. Evidently, there have been complaints, from numerous sources, about Greenwood, SC and the Spartanburg area. It seems to start in the junior tennis, and spill into Adult USTA. Seems there are concerns in SC within the USTA offices about the integrity of the game and the seeming attack on the spirit of game.

    So maybe the USTA will look at the player's match record like someone did in the case Shemke blogged about. The classiest thing I ever witnessed was at tournament a few years back when a very young guy was clearly out of level and destroying his older opponent. The wise man walked to the bench after one game, and retired. He simply said, "Congrats, I retire." I talked to him afterwards, and he said he refused to give the guy the satisfaction of humiliating him. I wonder if that guy proudly displays that trophy today? lol

    Whatever happens, happens. The funny thing is even with all the crap they pulled, they still lost to team that didn't pull any monkey business to win.
     
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  18. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Not sure about that. Check out the guy that your boy lost to at sectionals. He self-rates at 3.5 and loses his first two 3.5 matches and his first 4.0 match to get a nice low DNTRP then blasts everyone in straight sets at states and sectionals. LOL, yeah, ok.

    I just don't get it about the south. Why is cheating so rampant in the south? I've never seen any of this match throwing or re-registering or creating teams in different regions to lose matches or whatever else is going on down there. It's sad, really. There have been one or two questionable self-rates up here, but they've also generally been DQd, so no big deal in the end.
     
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  19. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    Crazy, he tanks at 3.5 two matches, then one at 4.0 before unloading in guys. It is sad JRB. It isn't everyone in the south ,but it is happening. It wasn't like this in the 90s.

    Like you and others have noted, it is rare among the shear number of teams that play, but these few teams ruin tennis for many in local leagues. You don't feel cheated when an honest player is just better than you.

    Evidently someone started this crap, and it spread like a bad virus for those who didn't get an inoculation against this back in elementary school. Maybe they never heard of Dale Carnegie.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  20. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I know it's not everyone. Clearly, you're not happy about it, and I'm sure most of the players are just there to play and not for shenanigans. Regardless, I don't see it at all here and it seem like you guys have one team in every state like that.

    We occasionally have kids who self-rate because they can even though they are significantly out of level, but they generally get DQd. I can't imagine telling a kid up here, ok, so you ignore the self-rate questions and give these wrong answers instead, then we're going to set up a shadow team on the other side of the state and you're going to have to drive over there every other week and throw a match because you're actually too good for this level, then maybe we'll have a chance to play for a national championship against a bunch of teams that just worked really hard but didn't pull all these shenanigans. Kids around here would be like F-off, I'm not doing all that crap just so you can get a golden paperweight that you don't deserve. People here just sign up and play and if they're too good, they get DQd and move up.
     
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  21. wrxinsc

    wrxinsc Professional

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    ^ really the only way to avoid getting dq'd, if self rested, esp. once you reach a district or certainly section level event and "kick ***", is to have manipulated your dynamic rating such that out of level results don't result in three strikes. Anyone willing to go to such lengths will likely get a way with it unless an administrator is willing to step in and evaluate the situation for the benefit of the recreational game. The problem, in my opinion as a Captain of competitive teams that play straight up (including winning district at mixed this past year), is that these teams that may be cheating also lose at sectionals.
     
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  22. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    The idea of the USTA evaluating results that may involve tanking is too subjective. Respectfully it's polyanic to think the USTA will ever DQ someone for tanking matches. If they have I'd like to hear about it. The USTA is very private about what information they will release regarding appeals, before, during and after the appeal process. NTRP is self-policed by the participants. They make the accuser prove the player in question is out of level. The USTA will not tell or show you what was submitted on the self-rate questionnaire. They don't want stories out there about holes in the NTRP system. For those willing to protest, you will be made to be the bad guy by the person and team you are protesting against and the USTA will hope the matter goes away unless you persist. Brace for it. After having appealed an won 3 different appeals years ago I've come to the conclusion it is not worth it, just play and let the results work themselves out. Enjoy the game and if you get match against a ringer, enjoy the beating and embrace the matchplay tennis lesson.
     
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  23. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    Ah, but there is an NCAA rule against it - at least for D-1 and D-2. The D-3 manual isn't so specific in naming tennis.

    From the D-1 manual:
    17.22.8.1.1 During Academic Year. A student-athlete in tennis who participates during the academic year as a member of any outside tennis team in any noncollegiate, amateur competition (e.g., tournament play, exhibition games or other activity) except while representing the institution in intercollegiate tennis competition shall be ineligible for intercollegiate tennis competition unless eligibility is restored by the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement (see Bylaw 14.6.3 for exceptions). (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/16/93, 10/3/05)

    17.22.8.1.1.1 Vacation-Period Exception. A student-athlete may compete outside the institution's declared playing and practice season as a member of an outside team in any noncollegiate, amateur competition during any official vacation period published in the institution's catalog.

    From the D-3 manual:
    14.7.1 Outside Competition. A student-athlete becomes ineligible for intercollegiate competition in that sport until eligibility is restored by the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement if, after enrollment in college
    and during any year in which the student-athlete is a member of an intercollegiate squad or team, he or she competes or has competed as a member of any outside team in any noncollegiate, amateur competition (e.g.,
    tournament play, exhibition games or other activity) during the institution’s intercollegiate season in the sport (see Bylaw 14.7.3 for exceptions and waivers) unless restored to eligibility before that time by the Committee
    on Student-Athlete Reinstatement. (See Bylaw 14.1.12, for student-athletes participating in a recognized foreign exchange/study abroad program). (Revised: 1/16/93, 1/11/94, 1/13/03 effective 8/1/03, 12/20/04, 1/10/05, 1/19/13
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
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  24. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    At D3 level it just counts towards your yearly dates of competition, but it must be between or after seasons. I played a current D2 player last year in mixed who was rated 4.5 even though she was a starter on a nationally ranked team. She played in between seasons.

    As for college players getting rated. My team has been trying to get a former D3 player who was never ranked in college nor on a nationally ranked team to play on our 4.5 team, yet it keeps spitting out 5.0 and appeals aren't granted. Meanwhile, at sectionals, we played a guy who currently is a 1st singles D1 player (who appealed his 5.0 rating) and a D1 commit who beat the other guy pretty badly. How those guys are able to play 4.5, but a non-ranked D3 guy isn't...just crazy?!
     
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  25. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    I played DIII soccer and we had some rules from our coach.....but NCAA rules do not prohibit play, even during a season. WE played in local indoor soccer leagues during our season all the time.....but maybe that is different since it was not sanctioned as strictly as USTA play. Maybe the vagueness of the DIII rule listed above was why this was not an issue for us.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
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  26. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for finding that, 10isDad. I wasn't aware of the rule. Probably because I had enough opportunities to play out of season (e.g. non mandatory practices led by seniors, no coach present) that I never explored playing USTA league while in school, although I remember one year one of my teammates had an eligibility issue after playing a tournament and had to sit for two matches while he was waiting to be cleared. Maybe that was the NCAA rule in question. We had a team rule in effect that we couldn't play any intramurals after someone rolled an ankle playing basketball but guys still played pick up ball at the rec center.
     
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  27. mrpeterman

    mrpeterman Banned

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    My son's HS coach and two pros at the local club all play in a 4.5 league and all three of them are former D1 players. There are no 5.0 or higher leagues around here.
     
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  28. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    I have played 4.0 and 4.5 because if you don't, you'll never find a league to play in...players always seem to find a way to play a level down. You really see it once you get to sectionals with the big city "All-Star" teams.
     
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  29. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    The 40+ leagues allow 5.0 rated players to play 4.5 as long as they play on the highest line. Just because there are no 5.0 leagues in your area does not mean that they could no be a 5.0, and won't prevent them from being bumped back up to 5.0.
     
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