J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Would that not be easier to accomplish by crossing in front?
Moving to the right, you take your left foot, cross it in front of your right foot pointing right and move right?
Am I missing something?
J
New FYB Footwork vid is great
- Thread starter Power Player
- Start date
Would that not be easier to accomplish by crossing in front?
Moving to the right, you take your left foot, cross it in front of your right foot pointing right and move right?
Am I missing something?
J
No, because that closes the hips as soon as the left foot plants. When the hips are closed, you can't use the momentum to transfer your weight in the direction of your movement. As a result, you end up "restarting" your momentum up every other step, which leads to slower, chompy movement.
When the inside foot goes behind the outside foot and oriented "in", that keeps the hips open. As a result, your momentum pulls you along in the direction of your movement. The steps are much quicker and lighter, and you have a more seamless transition into the unit turn.
Now, yes, if you just want to penetrate the court and attack, it makes more sense simply to step out.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ Thanks for explaining, I will try it out and see how it feels.
J
J
rfprse
Professional
Yeah, I use gravity step in McLennan’s sense. At least that’s what I think.
It seems that you might be reading too much into Yann’s "pivot step". It seems to me he treats it as getting a finished state of a step out (jab step) to push off with the leg close to the direction of the movement.
The crucial difference for me is whether one pulls back the foot (with which one would step out and push off) in the opposite direction of the movement to actively create the imbalance.
We can see a clear example in Nadal’s movement on the page you linked. There, he uses a pivot (step) finish and then a gravity step by pulling back the right foot.
On the other hand, Yann seems to think (and teach) his “pivot step” makes the leg ready for push-off (while allowing one to skip the stage of the actual step out) right away, which is based on the step-out-and-push-off principle. Other than that, his "pivot step" seems just focused on the turn of one’s body to the intended direction of recovery. His emphasis of keeping one’s balance seems another give away.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I learned a lot about footwork by watching Verdasco vids a while back. He (as many others I am sure) handles deep and high balls by backing up diagonally. This allows him to be in postion to hit the ball in his strike zone and also being moving forward into the court, so his weight transfer gets behind the shot.
Outstanding video! One of the best lessons I have seen on the web. Great in-depth content, nice mix of strategy and execution covered here, rare to see that level of complexity in most online lessons. Love the concept of stealing time from the opponent and the correlation to footwork as a means of execution on that strategy. I almost feel guilty for getting to watch that lesson for free. Very well done!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Anyone have a good video that they can point out of ATP players crossing behind with their outside foot?
I would like to take a look at it in practical use, not just drill situation.
Thanks.
J
I would like to take a look at it in practical use, not just drill situation.
Thanks.
J
In this video Federer uses it several times when he recovers from his backhand to the center.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Def7iMP8G0M
He also seems to use them when running around his backhand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CuXqNBr2c
They're quite small steps though, not what I was expecting to find.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
You see, he never really crosses behind with the outside foot.
He just brings it in line with the inside foot.
If he has to really cover ground he crosses in front with the outside foot.
Rafa does the same thing.
I just don't see the point in crossing behind, it seems counter intuitive, and unnatural.
I don't know why anyone would teach it, when it seems like crossing in front would be a more aggressive move, and allow you to cover more ground.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Will has some awesome high speed of Fed and Rafa playing points in slow mo, and you never see them cross behind.
J
J
He definitely crosses behind at the shot at 0:50 in the second video.
But I do agree, it is an exception and he usually doesn't cross behind, and if he needs to cover more grround, he crosses in front every time.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Federer doesn't cross behind often when he's moving to a standard forehand or backhand... Instead, he uses a variation where he takes a shuffle step immediately after the split step. It actually looks like he's taking two split steps because the footwork is virtually identical. You can see what I'm talking about in this point (which many of you have seen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tZhQi8aDcg
The benefits are the same as the cross step. For example, he's giving himself some time to judge the ball before he fully commits. On a number of the backhands he hits he'll shuffle and step in vs immediately moving forward coming out of his split step.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned that Federer uses this alternative in the footwork video when Yann is talking about the cross step... Although we re-shot a few segments so maybe it didn't make it into the final version.
Here's Rafa using the cross step to get to his backhand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpRr_1r0aE#t=1m33s
As JR pointed out earlier, his left leg comes in line w/his right leg vs crossing over completely. That's just fine -- still a cross step.
Finally, both Fed and Rafa use the cross step all the time to move to inside-out / inside-in forehands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tZhQi8aDcg
The benefits are the same as the cross step. For example, he's giving himself some time to judge the ball before he fully commits. On a number of the backhands he hits he'll shuffle and step in vs immediately moving forward coming out of his split step.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned that Federer uses this alternative in the footwork video when Yann is talking about the cross step... Although we re-shot a few segments so maybe it didn't make it into the final version.
Here's Rafa using the cross step to get to his backhand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpRr_1r0aE#t=1m33s
As JR pointed out earlier, his left leg comes in line w/his right leg vs crossing over completely. That's just fine -- still a cross step.
Finally, both Fed and Rafa use the cross step all the time to move to inside-out / inside-in forehands.
You did mention that.
I thought I saw Federer do a couple of cross steps during that rally, so I posted the vid, hence why the discussion turned to Federer.
I think Jolly and I interpreted the video as if the cross step is the best way to cover a lot of ground quickly, easily, compared to 'normal' running.
Instead, the cross step is the best footwork in case you have to cover some ground, but aren't stretched for a run.
So in the case of the federer-hewitt rally, during the backhand exchange, his shufflestep could be interchanged with a cross step, while the couple of times he really has to run from the backhand side to his forehand and back, the cross step wouldn't be the best choice, and crossing in front is the right choice. Am I correct in stating that?
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Yes, the shuffle step and cross step are interchangeable. When he has to get somewhere quickly he's just going to run. Not using a cross step at all.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ Makes more sense, because crossing behind in order to cover more ground is unnatural, where just doing it slightly to align yourself seems more realistic.
IMO it was very exaggerated in the video you filmed.
J
IMO it was very exaggerated in the video you filmed.
J
I really have to thank you for this video as it improved my forehand overnight.....my main issue was that all the attention of my coach was aimed at rotating the body, the swingpath,hitting throught the ball etc.......but very little was done on the, what i now call a miracle, stepping into the shot......as of course this is way too old school, right :???:.
So just by adjusting the timing a bit and putting my inside leg forward made me hit the forehands effortlessly and with decent speed.
Thank you again.
P.S: This video made me promise myself, I will start doing footwork excercises off court.
So just by adjusting the timing a bit and putting my inside leg forward made me hit the forehands effortlessly and with decent speed.
Thank you again.
P.S: This video made me promise myself, I will start doing footwork excercises off court.
adlis
Professional
I thumbed down that amateurish video.
athiker
Hall of Fame
Looking at the Nadal video Will linked to above and a few other situations it looks to me like players use this cross-step when they need to move across the court a short distance and back a bit. It seems more natural in this situation.
If I'm moving right and fading back I cross step with my left foot behind my right. If I'm moving left and fading back I cross step with my right foot behind my left. If I have to move in either direction and really have to move back a considerable distance I turn and run.
Is that correct and basically what both of you are saying?
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
You should add time to the equation as well. If you have some time you can use the cross step. If someone blasts the ball @ you (or away from you) a different footwork pattern is preferable. As we said in the video, the cross step gives you some space to work with -- you can step in and add some juice to your forehand, you can adjust to a bad bounce, etc.
Will,
There are two key portions to the video: explaining the technique and demonstrating it. You obviously took the decision to do show one and then the other, but I think I would have benefited if they had been more intertwined: explain one of the concepts, then reinforce it with footage of one the kids executing that shot before moving onto the next concept.
I did like the comparison of shots side-by-side, so it would be good to keep those at the end. I would also have liked to see the techniques used in rally situations as well as feeding to help show how they fit into the game.
There are two key portions to the video: explaining the technique and demonstrating it. You obviously took the decision to do show one and then the other, but I think I would have benefited if they had been more intertwined: explain one of the concepts, then reinforce it with footage of one the kids executing that shot before moving onto the next concept.
I did like the comparison of shots side-by-side, so it would be good to keep those at the end. I would also have liked to see the techniques used in rally situations as well as feeding to help show how they fit into the game.
watching the us open series this weekend, I see the footwork patterns used over and over. It's amazing how often and how fast they do it. Federer does it so fast that you almost can't see the crossover without slo-mo.
Just watch the feet of the pro's, forget about the match and the actual hitting.
For the walking step, half the short ball putaways seem to be using this pattern....I'm now wondering what other advanced footwork patterns are out there.
The learning is just endless...whenever I work my way through one door, ten other doors reveal themselves.
Just watch the feet of the pro's, forget about the match and the actual hitting.
For the walking step, half the short ball putaways seem to be using this pattern....I'm now wondering what other advanced footwork patterns are out there.
The learning is just endless...whenever I work my way through one door, ten other doors reveal themselves.
waves2ya
Rookie
Will - this module rocks, and something many moons ago we traded notes about (footwork)...
Quite something as you, the new age guru of web oriented tennis teaching, assists someone else communicate a message and bring the entire dialogue along. Brave - and proves you are a teacher, first.
One comment (I'm sure someone has made it); but I disagree with your 'neutral' vs 'closed' nomenclature for tennis stances. I think that the established vocabulary suffices, and that when hips are perpendicular to net, you are in a closed stance....
Hey - you're re-writing the book, not me; I'm in the peanut gallery...
Quite something as you, the new age guru of web oriented tennis teaching, assists someone else communicate a message and bring the entire dialogue along. Brave - and proves you are a teacher, first.
One comment (I'm sure someone has made it); but I disagree with your 'neutral' vs 'closed' nomenclature for tennis stances. I think that the established vocabulary suffices, and that when hips are perpendicular to net, you are in a closed stance....
Hey - you're re-writing the book, not me; I'm in the peanut gallery...
rice&tennis
Rookie
hey will (and anyone else)
can you explain the difference between a walking step and a scissor kick forehand
can you explain the difference between a walking step and a scissor kick forehand
W
Winky
Guest
Keep in mind the FYB vid was sort of an overview of how coaches are teaching these days, not an in-depth way to do each step. And I don't think it was intended to show steps that you do all the time, they were drills to let students' bodies become accustomed to moving gracefully over the court. At least that's what I took from the video.
Yes it's nice to know all those steps but you're far more likely to work bits of those movements into your own play rather than use those discrete movements without context.
Yes it's nice to know all those steps but you're far more likely to work bits of those movements into your own play rather than use those discrete movements without context.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Thanks! In the future we will probably incorporate some of these suggestions... Showing the various footwork patterns used in match situations is a good idea.
I appreciate the kind words. Nobody has a monopoly on quality instruction, and there are a number of ways to communicate a particular idea. My view is the more quality coaches we get on FYB the better.
RE: neutral vs closed... per your definition, what would you call it when the front foot steps across the back foot (which is how we define a closed stance)?
waves2ya
Rookie
Of course, what I'm arguing in not 'my definition', but a generally accepted, historical definition. You, I believe, will continue to weigh in w/ tennis greats and contribute to community. And, within that framework, I simply believe that adhering to nomenclature of 'open/closed' vs. neutral/not a better integration of your contributions and established terms.
This dialogue reminds me a little of athletes coming to terms with medical concept of joint precision; you know - lateral vs. medial, posterior vs. anterior - that precision and continuity benefits instruction by virtue of clarity and continuity.
So then - within that frame work - I think when the back foot crossed your stance is in transition from open to closed. I am principally a martial artist and so these stance transitions are fairly common; the notion of cross stepping to create a power-line can be seen in any number of art (5 animal styles, Tai-chi, any number of weapon work (sword/staff)) and it's no wonder tennis could/would benefit.
Finally, another concept in the footage module - hip health. The bottom line in hip health is that the player dissipate the energy stored in a hit (think the 'hop-hit'); alignment from toe to knee to hip and the continued dissipation of energy (best into shots) enables fluidity and, hopefully, less stress on the hip.
Thanks, as always, Will...
crash1929
Hall of Fame
I was trying the walk in step and I never hit better more penetrating shots in my life, and all while maintaining the same swing speed- a controlled composed shot! I must say it looked a little pro-ish.
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crash1929
Hall of Fame
Hi Will, (all), I notice at 12 seconds he is very high off the ground. I noticed I barely leave the ground on my serve? Should I be trying to jump up into the ball?
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Hey! If you can you should. But you don't have to. You should first make sure you've got sound mechanics otherwise because jumping is one of the last things you add. And if you can't jump easily for whatever reason -- bad knees, for example -- then don't worry about it. You can still hit a great serve w/ out jumping.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
This guy hits a pretty big serve without leaving the ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVv6jvD1W-0
Hi Will
The Nadal/Robredo practise points video you shot last year I absolutely loved!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FwoWEs_SY
Any similar and also longer would be much appreciated. Keep up the great work!
The Nadal/Robredo practise points video you shot last year I absolutely loved!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FwoWEs_SY
Any similar and also longer would be much appreciated. Keep up the great work!
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Funny that Robredo still makes that "wahhhh" sound when he's really pulled wide, even in a practice set. Same with Nadal and the racquet swipe after he missed a backhand into the net. These guys mean business whenever they pick up a racquet.
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