New One Piece stringing pattern

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by Irvin, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    You said, "So, When one strings a rqt, tension is applied to a string between to fixed points, where those points can be a starting clamp, a fixed clamp or floating clamps. Your fixed points are at either end of 2 adjoining strings. What you are implying is that the 2 fixed points that 1RM is being correctly & accurately being tension between is the tensionhead and the top of the frame where 2RM enters the grommet (or as near as)."

    When one strings a racket tension is applied to a string by connecting a force (tensioner) to one end of a string and an equal and opposite force on the other end. Newton's third law - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #51
  2. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    So then according to your theory, there is no need for a clamp on the first main when you string a racquet. I can just run the mains and pull tension and the friction of the grommets will lock it off. Interesting...

    Also, please answer the question: why the need for this? What proof do you have that stringing top down puts more pressure on the 10 & 2 than stringing bottom up?
     
    #52
  3. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Now that is just plain silly, I will try to explain this again using different words. The frame between 1H and 2H is the upward and opposite force while the tensioner (supplying refernce tension to 1RM) is the opposing downward force. At the same time the opposing downward force on 2RM is the starting clamp. The only force being applied to 2RM initially comes from the tension around the friction point at 1H-2H to the starting clamp, with reference tension on 1RM it will be tensioned to the correct tension. Because of the frame (grommet) surface friction at 1H-2H the tension on 2RM will be less than reference tension and the reason you should not double pull. I measured those tensions yesterday, on 1RM I had 58 lbs and on 2RM I had 46.5 lbs. So starting the mains using this method the tensioner or machine clamp will apply a downward force (58 lbs,) the starting clamp supplies a downward force (46 lbs,) and the frame at 1H-2H applies an upward force (58+46.5.) Therefore you have 1RM main tensioned to 58 lbs and 2RM tensioned to 46.5 lbs. Different strings with different surfaces will produce tifferent tensions on 2RM but I am not concerned at this time with the tension on 2RM because I am really only tensioned 1RM to reference tension (I'll tension 2RM at reference tension later and the sooner the better and one reason I only tension two left mains.

    Now the tensioner is off, the clamps are set and the tensions in the two strings start falling because there is no longer a constant force applied anywhere. Actually as I release the tensioner the machine clamp tilts back maybe 1-2 mm so the tension now on 1RM is something less than 58 lbs but there is nothing I want to do about that. I can leave the two tensioned strings and clamps in that same configuration for an hour and there will be no sliding action between 1RM and 2RM at 1H-2H. The reason there is no sliding is because the tension on 1RM nor the tension on 2RM is enough to overcome the surface friction at 1H-2H and an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless there is an outside force.

    Now I tension 1LM and the clamp on 1RM returns back to its original set position and 1RM is again close to reference tension, the machine clamp applies a downward force on 1RM from 1H and an upward from 1T. With the clamp in equilibrium I can then move the clamp. Surface friction at 1H-2H and 1T-1T prevents any sliding because of tension differences between 1LM, 1RM, and 2RM.

    Ad so on ... After tensioning and clamping 2LM I tension 2RM and all strings should be similar but not at reference because of string stretch, clamp tilt, and frame compression. But they are as close as any other good method of starting your mains and better than some.
     
    #53
  4. Channy

    Channy New User

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    sorry i doubt anyone will satisfied the answer about tension in 1RM and 2RM until some one measure it for sure. I will try to replicate what irvin doing but with scale. the only problem is my scale is 2 different scale.

    I will post my finding later.
     
    #54
  5. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    We're going to have to agree to disagree. I have never seen, nor do I think it good practice, anyone do this and expect the results you claim. And again, I don't play games with other people's racquets. But then again I'll agree, the whole notion that you can expect reference tension on one string while pulling two strings is just plain silly.

    Please answer...
     
    #55
  6. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure if I answered the above question to you satisfaction or not. Let me know if I didn't.

    Again never have I ever said top down stringing puts more pressure on the corners of the frame than bottom up. As a matter of fact I believe I said:

    I really have no proof that this pattern reduces stress I am only relying on what I was told by Prince when I was told why the two piece 50/50 pattern puts less pressure on the corners of the racket.

    But it does make a lot of sense to me. Let's take a 16 main racket that skips 7&9 head and throat and starts at the head. Because the mains end at the head following the manufacturer's recommendation you would tie off the short side outside main and string the crosses from top to bottom with the long side (except for Head rackets.)

    You could use the short side to run the top cross and tie off but then you have 8RM (long side) @ 10H going to 2X @ 9H and each are pulled at reference tension so you have two times the reference tension supporting those two strings. If you are stringing at 60 lbs, with a 1.3 mm string and the distance from 9H to 10H is 10 mm then you are applying 120 lbs on (1.3 mm x 10 mm) 13 square mm. There are about 650 square mm per square inch so that is about (650/13*120) 6,000 psi on that section of the frame. You may be aware I talked about how pulling on short sections of the frame is bad for the frame now you know why. If I routed the outside main from 10H to 7H I tripling the length of string on the outside reduces the pressure by 67%. As I understand it that is why Head says you need to string all rackets two piece, even the ones that end at the head.

    And if I run the top two crosses with the short side I lengthen the tie off string on the short side (usually) and may end up with an even shorter section of string when I run the long side outside main from 10H to 11H.

    So how do you prevent tying off the outside mains and reduce the pressure on the corners of the frame? Run the short side outside main down to the fourth cross and string the top four crosses with it and use the long side to string the fifth to the bottom cross.

    This is just what I was thinking now for the reason of completing the long side first. Normally a stringer runs in the three outside mains immediately followed by the top three crosses (when string top down.) That is 6 strings in the starting corners in small area. That's more pressure than any other point on the racket as the grommet hols are effectively half the distance. If I don't string half of those strings initially it cuts the pressure on those corners initially by 50%. Later after the long side crosses are strung the racket is firmer and may be better able to support that increased pressure. I have to string the top and bottom three crosses some time why not last?

    But there is an added benefit, the short side is longer and the long side is now shorter. So there is less weaving on the long side string making it faster and better for the string.
     
    #56
  7. Channy

    Channy New User

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    I have done my experiment about how irvin start stringing.

    first thing first. I use 2 scale. the first one is eagnas calibration scale. the 2nd one is my own digital scale. both scale have same result when I strung @50lbs. so the my two scale is not different after all.

    after my calibrating my 2 scale I set up how irvin start stringing. then it's go time.

    then the result is,
    1. neither of the string have reference tension.
    2. neither of the string have half reference tension
    3. both of then is under reference tension. @2RM my scale reading at 40lbs and at 1RM my scale reading at 45lbs.

    I will some pict after I download it from my Iphone. my iphone cable data is broken I can't download it right now.

    I can send it by email. if someone want prove of what I am doing.

    sorry for bad grammar
     
    #57
  8. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    This notion is very similar to the pulley principle. The big difference is the pulley on a racket (1H-2H or an other transition from one string to another) has much more surface friction than a pulley.

    EDIT: Let ask you a question, if I pull 1RM with 60 lbs of force what would you expect?
     
    #58
  9. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    P L E A S E do! Pretty please with sugar on top. I would like to see someone back up there comments with something other than what they think. You know one one time people thought the world was flat like a pancake. It amazes me how they ever got the courage to dig a hole. What do they think would happen if they ran out of bottom?

    EDIT: By the way I did measure it for sure and posted my findings in Post #45. You may find different results because of different applied tension, string, and surface friction but I think you will find very similar results.

     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #59
  10. Channy

    Channy New User

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    I have shared the result but not the picture. if you have email I will email how I do my experiment.
     
    #60
  11. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    What is the result if you pull one string at 50 pounds; i.e. a normal configuration?
     
    #61
  12. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Let me take a guess - 45 lbs

    EDIT: The amazing part to me is how the two strings came out so close. Channy are you by chance using a lockout tensioner? That would account for a drop on 1RM.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #62
  13. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry, but you did say it.
     
    #63
  14. Channy

    Channy New User

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    in normal configutation is 50. like my calibration test. when reference tension 50 both scale reading at 50lbs

    i am using eagnas pro crystal. an electric tensioner. with constant pulling. I have make several test. not once. all 1RM range from 42-46lbs. but the average is 45. in 2RM is from 35-40 i think. it doesn't have much reading like digital one so it pretty hard to guess the reading is 39 or 40. like 37 or 38. but teh average is close to 40lbs.

    but my experiment is not complete. first I used a synthetic gut. so it have more elasicity than kevlar or polyester. second I did not use all same string at all part. and the last one I not tensioning the 1LM and 2RM. 2 string that tension after the first one. this is simple. because my string is not long enough to make one main either side.

    there are several experimen in my mind. but I only test one. if one main is tensioning we all know that the string is lose tension when we clamp and release the tensioner. i tested it with synthetic gut. not kevlar or other material. the resultnis when i tension it at 50. the scale reading is almost 50 not sure because not using the digital one. but when I clamp and release the tension it lose to 45+lbs, maybe 46lbs.

    that's my experiment for tonight. it 11pm in Indonesia. I am pretty sleepy.

    despite of all argument I still think the new one string pattern that irvin introduced to us is a good one.

    one question for irvin. when start the cross the short side is start from the 4th cross. it is because is 2 cross outside the last main (the racket has 2 skip). am I correct? so if we strung a one skipped racket it can be start at 3rd cross. am I correct?

    thanks
     
    #64
  15. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks a bunch, I suspected as much.
     
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  16. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

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    So, could you use Newton's third law to answer my question about the location of fixed points? I guess you'll reply the starting clamp.

    But consider this - in your method you pull on a string that loops thru a grommet at its half way point. By your own words the string nearest the anchor point is less than reference, but the one nearest the applied force is at reference. If you pull at 50lbs, and using newtons law (if I'm correct), the starting clamp is applying 50lbs of (opposite) force. So, I have equal force at either end, and yet part of the string is quite a bit below that force while the other part is (by concensus on the boards here) also below that force. Some of the force/pressure must be being lost somewhere, and probably at the curve due to the bend and because of the friction of the grommet.

    I suppose when it comes down to it, you're still pulling 2 strings at the outset, in a place where we need to be the most accurate. And most stringers know that you never pull 2 strings at once (except in specific circumstances).

    I also quote below a comment made by you in regards to stringing squash rqt. I stated That with Prince squash rqts with the O-rings you string 2 mains at once, tension them together from the head.

    So, by this comment and that you pulled 2 strings at once with your method, did you use the 10% pre-stretch function? Probably not as you didn't mention it on your vid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #66
  17. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    All one needs to do is ping each string in question and listen to the pitch. One will have a higher pitch.
     
    #67
  18. Channy

    Channy New User

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    I think we do not need to discuse this problem again. I have tested. both of string neither at reference tension. both of the is lower than reference tension.
    2RM around 40lbs and 1RM around 45lbs when strung at 50lbs.

    there are different in 2 string tensionin at once and irvin method. 2 string stringin at once will give half of reference tension. but irvin method is not half. but below reference tension.. why? first I have tested it. second irvin method is string one string at a time but have length twice the main string. and is not straight but bend at the grommet. it is physics.

    like a rope with a pulley. if the rope is arund a pulley and both and of the rope is tie to a mass. tension on each side of the rope should be half of the mass. it is different when on side of the rope is tie to a wall and the other one is to a mass. both side of the rope would be have the same tension IF THERE IS NO FRICTION ON THE PULLEY. but in the real world there is a friction.

    I think that's another analog of the situation we have. not satesfied? just try it your self and you will know the answer.

    cannot sleep yet. almost 12pm in here
     
    #68
  19. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, and the longer the length of string, the greater the loss.
     
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  20. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    You're correct. I stung a Babolat two piece and it skips 8 head and throat. I would have skipped to the third cross grommet hole but the outside supports were in the way so again I went to the fourth cross grommet.

    let me make a suggestion for your experiment use only one scale and preferably not a spring loaded scale. Measure the tension in the racket on 1RM - that will tell you you reference tension. Then measure your tension on 2RM while pulling on 1RM with no scale in the string this time. This will show you the force 1RM puts on 2RM is should be some what less than you reference tension. Now if you want to see the tension on 1RM with 2RM tie a string to either end of the scale. Run one string through 1H - 2H - 2T and hole it with a starting clamp. Then the other string through 1T to the tensioner and pull tension. You should get the same thing you did on the first reading, and why not it is the same pulling force.
     
    #70
  21. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    No the starting clamp is applying a force in the same direction as the tensioner.

    No it is not it is only applying a force equal to the tension on 2RM
    Again Paul I don't think that is right. The scion tensioner applies a force on 1RM the starting clamp applies a different force on 2RM and the frame at 1H-2H applies an opposite for to the cumulative total of those two.
    BINGO!
    How many times do I have to say this before it sinks. I AM ONLY PULLING TENSION (reference tension) ON ONE STRING.
    You got me there but I have never string a squash racket in my life. I have strung tennis rackets with that type of arrangement where you double pull and no I did not use the pre-stretch feature.
     
    #71
  22. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

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    So with newtons law, what is the opposite effect of the tensionhead pulling the string??


    OK, but why is it not a force equal to 1RM & 2RM, as 1RM & 2RM is 1 continuous piece of string??

    I concede that if the force applied by the starting clamp isnt the same as the amount being pulled by the tensionhead, then my point can fail.

    You are quite clearly pulling the string between the starting clamp and the tensionhead which forms strings 1RM & 2RM i.e. 2 strings.

    Since you are convinced you're only pulling 1 string, please define what would be considered pulling 2 strings at once


    While I appreciate that you've not strung any squash rqts, but have strung tennis rqts that use the same system; you indicated in a previous post that you'd use a pre-stretch function were you to do so. Yet you now state that when stringing those tennis rqts you dont use the pre-stretch function. Seems a bit condtridicatory.

    If you haven't I think you should go to the GSS syposium as speak to the experts there. I think you'd learn a lot from them, and at what level you're really at.
     
    #72
  23. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The frame @1H-2H
    Because I was only talking about the starting clamp
    There are two strings that will end up with tension but only 1RM has reference tension. The tension on 2RM is coincidental and unknown. I could have just as easily used a Modified drakulie method of starting the mains. Instead of clamping 2RM outside the frame at the throat I could clamp 2RM inside the frame at the top. What tension would I have on 1RM then? Nothing wrong with that either I just prefer putting the clamp on the grommet outside the frame.

    As far as pulling two mains at once the Yusuki method is a perfect example of that. But then you have to go back bad pull each staring again individually to get them up to reference tension.
    Point taken you are correct.

    EDIT: By the way the GSS Symposium is now called the IART (International Alliance of Racket Technicians) Symposium and is held in Tampa Florida if anyone is interested.

    http://www.gssalliance.com/
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #73
  24. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

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    So, correct me if I'm wrong.

    You pull on the string between the starting clamp and the tension head which forms strings 1RM & 2RM, but using newtons law effect, the opposite force of the tensionhead is the 1RM/2RM grommet. And because of the effect of the grommet at 1RM/2RM, the string between it and the tensionhead is at reference tension. Is that what you beleive?

    If you had used Drakulie's method then you'd only be pulling the 1 string between the starting clamp and the tension head, and it would clearly be at reference tension.

    There's double-pulling, double-pulling,and double-pulling; and pulling 2 strings at once and pulling 2 strings at once.

    1) Double-pulling I : puling the same string twice;
    2) Double-pulling II : pulling 2 strings at once with the end of the string in the tensionhead (often used by those trying to string quickly);
    3) Double-pulling III : pulling 2 strings at once with both ends of the string in the tensionhead (often used to start the mains al la Yusuki method).

    1) Pulling 2 strings at once I : as 2 above;
    2) Pulling 2 strings at once II : as 3 above.

    When starting your rqt you are doing Double-pulling II and Pulling 2 strings I
     
    #74
  25. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    #75
  26. bbulla

    bbulla Rookie

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    I don't see how that clears it up. I don't think you are understanding what Paul is saying. Or maybe I am just confused now too. :)
     
    #76
  27. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    It has been said that if I pull on a main connected through two grommets to another mains I will have less tension on that string than if I pulled only the one string by itself. In the first example I pulled on 1LM connected to !RM held by a starting clamp and the tension gauge said that string was just over 56 lbs. Then I used the Yusuki method in the second test. I had 1RM held with a machine clamp near the throat and at the top of the racket with a starting clamp. Now when I pull on 1LM I am pulling only one main and I read the same tension.

    EDIT: Paul said:
    Well I didn't use drakulie's method I used Yusuki's method which serves the same purpose.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #77
  28. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

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    Nice scientific experiment using accurate equipment.

    While I concede that the video backs your claims, we can't see the tensionhead to confirm that's what your pulling. And of course the scale doesnt show 57lbs, it shows less than that. Bearing in mind your '4 min restring' word trick, it show's you can manipulate things to your perception as you see fit.

    You still haven't accepted that you are pulling 2 (main) strings at once, when it is clear to everyone that you are.

    Where you to take the MRT test using that method, you'd fail straight away. In fact I was contacted by a stringer far more experienced than I who immediately picked up on the double pull.

    But, and this will be my final word on this matter. If you're happy in what you're doing and convinced it's a sound method then go ahead and continue to use it. I guess your customers won't know any different.

    I didn't say you had used Drak's method, only if

    Yet again you are trying to use semantics to defend yourself. Further point in case the GSS now being IART. An while it's good your advertising it, maybe you should actually go!

    Regards, Paul - signing out of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #78
  29. v-verb

    v-verb Hall of Fame

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    Unbelievable - Irwin provides a simple 1 piece stringing method then everyone jumps on him with all sorts of objections etc.

    Which may be valid or whatever - I have a solution. just string up a racquet his way and see if it works OK!

    FWIW I thank Irwin yet again for another way to string up a racquet and avoid 2 pesky knots - if hybrid stringing is not involved.
     
    #79
  30. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Paul do you own test if you feel I am being less than honest..
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
    #80
  31. Channy

    Channy New User

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    will do irvin. that one experiment in my mind when I test your starting method.

    it will give us much more accurate data than using spring loaded scale which is hard to measure exactly the reading are. I will try my best to test it. but right now I am run out of used string. searching for broken racket that need to be stringing first.
     
    #81
  32. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

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    There are a lot of videos of stringing on YouTube, some good, and some very very bad. Like the saying goes, Don't believe everything on the Internet is the truth.

    KISS method, "KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID!"
     
    #82
  33. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    i hear ya. you are new. DD is excellent. no non sense, very good. try searching for YuLite. excellent. irvin....do some searches and see for yourself. i let you decide
     
    #83
  34. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    also if you search Drakulie or DD or UK Skippy you can find their credentials....
     
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  35. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    It is not YuLite it is YULitle. Incedentally, I think both he and diredesire are excellent too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
    #85
  36. Channy

    Channy New User

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    yes many stringing method at youtube there are good and bad method there. because i am nit believe all in internet so I follow this forum quite a while. about 3 years. the moment I start to learn how to string.

    hahaha Now I know the KISS method. :D

    I have watch DD yulitle, irvin, and many other. I forget how many stringing video that I have download to learn all stuff about stringing.

    I think all video have good and bad. I try to accept the pro and the con of all method. since there is no USRSA in Indonesia so I doubt there will be any complain from my costumer here. and I think only me that have starting clamp here so there are no other stringer that use atw or any pattern than tradisional one piece and two piece stringing.

    almost all player in here is not know how the stringer stringing their racket. :D

    yeah I am new in this forum. but I have read this forum about 3 years now.

    yeah i watch their video too.
     
    #86
  37. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    oh cool you are fine then. everyones different
     
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  38. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    Messages:
    6,705
    deleted personal remarks to keep the thread on track :oops:
     
    #88
  39. Channy

    Channy New User

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Location:
    Indonesia
    hi Irvin, I have a good news for you.

    I have done my next experiment. sorry to wait so long. the experiment is like how irvin start the main in the video like my experiment before but instead of two scale I only use one digital scale.

    I strung at 56lbs in digital scale. when I strung the 2RM the scale read at 46-44lbs. like the first experiment. not reference tension, not half, but under reference tension. like the previous experiment it is 10 lbs under reference tension.

    now I move to 1RM. and I am strung it at 56lbs. and the tension is 56lbs and then drop to 55,5lbs. so I can say irvin is right. the 1RM is reference tension. and the 2RM is NOT reference tension.

    not trust me? then try the experiment. :D

    that's all from me.
     
    #89

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