New Rule Changes For Tournaments

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by tennis5, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I just spoke to a big wig guy who runs a few tennis centers and is in on USTA proposed changes.

    This is still being reviewed, and he did not know what date it would go into effect.

    But, the draws being considered are 64 for Super Nationals.

    If this goes through, and he thinks it will, this will be a big deal......
     
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  2. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    What size are they now? 128...
     
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  3. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Winter Nats for 14's was 128.

    But, I think Clays for 16's is bigger.....
     
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  4. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Friend had a Top 12-16, now playing ITF's and did the USTA thing. Suggested with all the changes Just start ITF @12 and skip the USTA. You'll get enough points to get into the Main Draw of EH, OB etc. and with enough ITF Points a WC in the Nationals. Says the USTA Jr. Circuit now is just a money grab. Can't say yea or nea but with all these changes I have to wonder where this is going.
     
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  5. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    This sounds like the dream route for us long term. Good quality ITFs yet still able to gain entry to the EH, OB, WC into Nationals, etc.

    But I will need to get educated....I have little clue as to how to best apply the ITF route. Our students have been strictly USTA route kids.
     
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  6. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    TCF we have Int'l academy next to ours, and they are all ITF kids. Handfull of Americans. Sure I don't understand it all, but it boils down to the Cost of Sectionals and Regionals that won't get you enuff points to get in the Nationals, or Playing Qualies for EH, OB are what the USTA kids are relegated to.

    One they started ITF's they got into Main Draws and only missed the USTA Sectionals/Regionals but were given WC into Nationals.

    Most important these parents of kids ~15-17 all agree the changes and the cost make the ITF route the better option TODAY!

    With Flights from MIA to Central Am, and Caribbean the cost is not much off traveling say to Arizona for a National :shock:

    Now they also said that other Regions are helping with cost (travel/Hospitality) for their Top Juniors and USTA Florida does not. So this is all region specific.

    Gotta think 2-3 years out, with the economy these days.
     
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  7. fitmom

    fitmom New User

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    #7
  8. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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  9. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks for posting.

    Couple of things:

    1) The change I am talking about is for 2013/2014?

    2) Is this for regional level 3's?
    Or is this sectional?

    We already have 3 day tournaments as we are indoors.
    However, in the NE, we play at night, that is when the courts are free. As an aside, the match might start on 8 pm Friday night, when your kid has already been up since 6 am.....

    3) I pulled this from your site. This is crazy ....... They are getting rid of 3rd sets??????????

    Third of all, all matches will play a 10-point tiebreak instead of a 3rd set. The 10-point breaker used to be limited to backdraw matches, which made sense to me from a time-constraint perspective. However, I’m at a loss to understand how eliminating the 3rd set helps our kids develop into higher-level players who can compete nationally and globally. The 3rd set is often what separates the mentally tough from the not-so-tough – why eliminate that challenge if the goal is to prepare our kids to compete in college and on the world stage?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
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  10. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Is this your first anti - USTA comment?
     
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  11. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I checked the junior ITF schedule.

    Unless, I am looking at the wrong schedule, most of the tournaments are not in the US.

    Airfare to other countries is pretty expensive....
     
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  12. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    While I am a proponent of the USTA, it's probably not my first negative comment about USTA. For example, I hate the no consolation format of the Super Series in Florida as it leads to defaults in doubles which are played late in the day on Saturday and Sunday. I also think the State Doubles tournament format is a joke which steers many players away from participating. And because of the doubles debacle, combined rankings in Florida are worthless.
     
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  13. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Hold the Presses: This just gets better. Happen to talk to Tournament Director for upcomming Sectional Level 4. Was just at a USTA FLORIDA Tournament Directors Meeting and Florida doubled the Points for the Local (Level 7) Tournaments. Parents were not entering because points were just not worth it. He argued we should advertise and let the PARENTS know and they refused. USTA seems to know whats best and what we need to know.
     
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  14. thepastord

    thepastord New User

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    Have to agree on those issues......... Been there, done that debacle!:evil: My daughter is a senior, and we stopped all that none sense two years ago. The USTA, said the change of the reduced numbers was to also help with promoting doubles at the Designated, blah, blah. That has been disastrous. When the change was first made, I projected too many withdraws, and now hardly any sign up because they just don't want to deal with it! They should have left it alone, 64 draw with consolation. State Doubles is a complete joke. :(

    There are other routes to take. If you figure it out soon enough, you can save a lot of time, money and grief. As far as the scholarship stuff goes, figure out what kind of kid you have and what their academic/career choices are. Do what you need to, to market your kid yourself. That is what we did, and she has gotten practically full academic offers at very prestigious DIII schools. Even had some smaller DI DII (she wasn't interested in it). People spend way too much $/time chasing their tails. I'd provide the tips, but I have found people need to learn on their own. Hopefully you will be one who will figure it out sooner, rather than later.
     
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  15. thepastord

    thepastord New User

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    The points are still way out of line compared to other states. Double amounts to a big joke, and no, it still isn't worth it. When Florida gets the same amount of points as other states participation will increase, until then, it is a waste of time and money to enter, even if you win---- it amounts to zippola
     
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  16. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. And unfortunately, the lack of doubles competition does one thing for tennis, it keeps kids on the baseline and clueless at the net.
     
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  17. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Excuse my ignorance, but other sections give more points for Locals (Level 7) events?


    Florida Rookies is Eastern L2R/L20
    Florida Level 7 - Local is Eastern L1B
    Florida Level 6 - Super Series Eastern L1
    Florida Level 5 - Eastern Designated +L1

    If this is correct WOW what a difference. I mean winners get almost 3 x.

    If this is correct man what a difference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
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  18. thepastord

    thepastord New User

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    I tried to do a copy and paste from the USTA Southern, but for some reason it wouldn't work. You can go to their USTA main site, and pull up the chart from there. It will show you all the types of tournaments, rounds, rounds won....
     
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  19. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Yea I looked at it. :mad:

    I had no idea that points for Tournaments: Sectional (level 4) and below were so different. :confused: Just when you think you know. Now I understand why when the NY kids come down with these Extremely High point totals and play average to below with our middle of the pack kids.

    I knew for some smaller sections (i.e. Puerto Rico) their kids beat up on very weak competition and their points are skewed, but had no idea the tally for other sections can be misleading.

    We were traveling to the NE and my daughter wanted to play and I felt the field was way above her head until I saw some of the top kids and figured something was askew.
     
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  20. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    For FLorida Tournament:

    Draw Type/Level
    Full FIC/L1 National Championship
    Full FIC/L2 National Open
    Full FIC/L3 Junior Orange Bowl (BG14s & B12s)
    Full FIC/L3 Regionals
    Full FIC/L3 State Closed
    Full FIC/L4 FL. Sectional
    Full FIC/L5 FL. Designated

    Florida Section Tournaments (no national level)
    Super Series (level 6)
    Local (level 7) if you won 6 rounds you get a wooping 78 points!
    Rookie
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
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  21. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    The problem is that they don't really think about all the scenarios when they make the decisions. Every section should be ran exactly the same in regards to how many points and how many doubles tournaments each one has, in regards to national points. Look how many players from the Eastern section have a ton of doubles points.

    The biggest problem is that the USTA knows that the majority of the players are not home schooled and the ITF route is not really an option. The first rounds usually start on Monday because the qualifiers are on Saturday and Sunday.

    They have wanted to change the Clays and the Summer Supers back to 128 draws for a while. I also heard that it was brought up about making the Winter and Spring Supers a 64 draw. They are trying to find a way to get the top players playing the Winter and Spring Supers, that is one reason they decided to up the points for the Level 1 tournaments.
     
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  22. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  23. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Very informative. Thank you!

    What about summer though? Kids are not in school, so you can play during the week.
     
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  24. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Can we get a link here?

    ONLY Eastern points that count for nationals are +L1. ( your level 5).
    They are so miniscule...... It is a joke.

    I disagree with the folks saying you get a lot of national points playing Eastern sectionals.
    If you reach the semi- finals, you get 18 national points.
    NOTHING......
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
    #24
  25. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    treeman10....great informative post about ITFs. Thanks.
     
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  26. fitmom

    fitmom New User

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    the elimination of the 3rd set is probably what is most troubling in terms of player development . . . neither main draw nor backdraw matches will play a 3rd set now.
     
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  27. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Was it done to free up courts????? Draws extended way to late.
     
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  28. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    I can finally agree with you on something!

    It would be great if the USTA had "Doubles" only tournaments.
     
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  29. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Yes the BEST time my daughter and her academy kids as well as the girls they play regularly LOVED the Florida state doubles championships.

    The single best event I've seen. They had a blast.

    http://www.florida.usta.com/3_playe...xed_at_2011_usta_florida_jr_state_doubles111/

    Some of the best in the state and nationally ranked kids play every year. Worth every cent every minute.
     

    "This is one of my favorite events with the mixed doubles," said tournament organizer Bobby Curtis. "I had one father tell me how he could see his daughter mature just over the two days by her interactions with the other players. He said she is usually so intense during her singles, but he actually saw her smile during the mixed doubles."


    I was the one Mr. Curtis quoted. Great guy, great advocate for Jr Tennis
     
    #29
  30. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  31. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Yes. It's all part of the plan.
     
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  32. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I know you are joking.

    But, all I hear at tennis tournaments is that the USTA is reducing draws, and limiting the kids from playing.

    It is a trickle down theory.

    It turns future parents off from signing junior up for tennis.

    Instead, they look at soccer, or baseball, or swimming....
     
    #32
  33. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    All I know the parents of some old juniors that went thru the old system, and now see the changes tell me to bypass it all together. Now living in Florida with flights that cost the same or less to a lot of ITF destinations makes this easy for me. The cost of USTA events for the little points is just a waste. I can go to fewer events, pay less than chasing the USTAs PPR system. Yes the elimination of competing ITF events isn't by coincidence.

    Firsthand knowledge of kids that were in OB mian draw while their friends that were in the USTA PPR system proved it to me. The kids with ITF points didn't have to troll thru Qualies.

    So if it is 6 trips thru America or 3 to MEX, COSTA RICA, and the Caribbean ill take my chances as I see both paths everyday.

    As to ITF competition, no it is not ALL better or ALL worse. Just like Regionals some are stronger, but since we travel anyway pick the weakest ones. Just like US the ITF world has its circle of knowledge and parents that talk like us, who share information. Biggest difference is the ITF kids don't travel every week to every event. The ones with good points don't have too.

    Now this is OUR plan that works because these places are within 2:40 flights from Miami, and very easy trips.

    Understand I talk with these parents everyday as their kids train on courts next to mine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
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  34. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Seminole, we will finally be getting our move down to Parkland done within 3-6 months. We should definitely work together to best coordinate practice matches and navigate this ITF thing in the future.
     
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  35. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Yea. I figure we have a while. My guess is things will return to the way they were as economics and stubborn USTA polices collide.

    I'd love to get the kids hitting together away from her academy with pizza n soda and a swim to top it off.
     
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  36. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  37. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Yeah,we have a long time before ITFs. Sounds like our thing as we love to travel and combine new experiences with tennis.

    I hear you on Mexico. We went to Mexico City 12 years ago and could not believe the cops with machine guns on the corners. And that was before all the crazy violence of the last few years.
     
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  38. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Agreed.

    I'm talking about ITF 12 and under events, then flowing to the 14 and under, then ITF JUNIORS.

    We travel extensively and kids have more stamps in their passport than most adults. Mexico is an issue but if you view the Dept State communiques lots of places are actually riskier.

    Bottomline as stated you have $1 to spend and a trip to Forest in Costa Rica after a few days of tennis just beats a hotel in Waco.
     
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  39. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  40. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    treeman, what is this ITF Developmental Initiative? It appears to have started to help kids in some less developed countries but is growing into various Euro and other 12 and under tournaments and championships?

    http://www.itftennis.com/development/news/newsarticle.asp?articleid=22870

    17 – 29 July: ITF/CAT West & Central Africa 12 & Under Circuit – Senegal

    03 - 12 September: ITF/CAT Southern Africa 12 & Under Circuit – Zimbabwe

    ITF/OTF North Pacific Qualifying Event, Guam (12, 15 & 18 & Under)

    9 June - 10 July
    ITF/Tennis Europe 12 & Under Development Championships, Czech Republic
    To read a report on this event, please click here

    The tennis Europe U-12 program seems to be almost entwined with ITFs?

    http://tenniseurope.org/page.aspx?id=15165

    Like you said the US is not in the loop much with anymore with ITFs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
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  41. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    ITFs 12s and 14s are developmental. It is a seperate progrm fom "ITF JUNIORS" Now you can still gain points. For EH, and OB. Not extensive but if you search several events throughout year.

    My point given draw sizes and travel these are a valid options, for some.

    Tennis Europe is basically our USTA PPR system for them. Good system but not for us as no points help with our Big events.

    The U12 Developmental programs are limited to those countries and from those they flow into team events. The USA doesn't participate.
     
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  42. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  43. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I am hearing that they voted and the draws will be 64 for Super Nats in 2013.

    Can anyone confirm?
     
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  44. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  45. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Why would they reduce L1 draw size?

    The very long alternate lists indicate demand for a bigger draw.
     
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  46. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks Treeman.

    Has anyone heard about what I am referencing?

    I heard the vote was this week.

    64 draw. Super Nats.

    Can anyone confirm?
     
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  47. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    No I emailed USTA Florida also asked about this and about our PPR change. I was told the points for Locals was doubled but not publicized.

    I just get the feeling they are grasping for straws, and shooting at a moving target. Sad part is they seem to forget since WE have to pay we can opt out.
     
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