New USTA PPR Point Table for 2012

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by klu375, Oct 21, 2011.

  1. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Ju...012_to_national_junior_rankings_point_tables/

    So there will be even more discrepancy between USTA and TR.NET ranking, between top players and the rest. Probably even more kids will be locked out of National tournaments. Sectional play will be made more irrelevant. For L1 there is a quota at least. To consistently play national tournaments you need to jump on the national bandwagon in 12s and try to ride this wave till the end.
     
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  2. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  3. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    There are some possible positives. "Substantially more points" for each round of advancement is good in some ways. Maybe that will encourage more development time like in Europe instead of simply playing lots of tournaments to get points and losing in rounds 1-2.

    For example, a talented kid whose game plan is more training and a lower amount of tournaments could get lots of points for fewer tournaments. Seems to me it levels the playing field points wise between the point chasing kids who play 10000 tournaments and the talented kids more focused on development.

    I guess I am looking at it from a selfish point of view long term. In the future I would love for my girl to be able to train a lot, show up to the minimum amount of tournaments yet get the maximum amount of points if she is good enough to advance in the tournament.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
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  4. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    How will Section tournaments that count for national ranking be affected?
    The ranking points earned at the 12 tournaments each Section designates as Levels 3, 4 and 5 will be reduced. This change is an acknowledgment of the inherent flaw in having 17 Sections of different sizes and strengths feeding into one national ranking system. Although reduced, the adjusted ranking points remain higher than the points earned at these tournaments when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.

    So this helps how???
     
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  5. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Sorry, double comment here.
     
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  6. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Ju...012_to_national_junior_rankings_point_tables/

    The new Tables, which were unanimously approved by the USTA Junior Competition Committee in September with the support of the USTA Player Development Staff, have been revised in two significant ways:

    • The point distribution has changed so that ranking points are awarded in a more
    progressive manner. Players who advance to the later rounds of a tournament will receive
    substantially more points than players who lose in the earlier rounds.

    • The total points earned for winning a Level 1 National Ranking tournament, such as a
    USTA National Championship, have been significantly increased. The points earned for
    winning Level 4 and Level 5 tournaments have been reduced slightly, but remain higher
    than when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.



    Why has the USTA adjusted the Point Tables?
    A goal of the USTA is to promote and reward earned advancement. The progressive nature of the new Ranking Point Tables does this in two ways. Within a Level, the distribution of points among each round’s finishers ensures that players who advance to the later rounds will earn the majority of the points available in a tournament. Across Levels (1-5), the distribution of points for reaching equivalent rounds ensures that players who win at higher levels earn a proportionately greater number of points. By rewarding advancement in these ways, which is supported by American college coaches, it is anticipated that the accuracy of the USTA rankings will be enhanced. In addition, because the new Tables award fewer points for winning fewer rounds, the incentive to travel outside one’s Section or region will be reduced and will encourage play closer to home.

    Will there still be a combined ranking of singles and doubles?
    There will be no changes to the combined ranking. Under the new Point Tables, players who compete in both singles and doubles and advance to the later rounds of events will earn progressively more ranking points reflecting their competitive success.

    Who will this change affect?
    The change will affect every player who competes in tournaments that count for national ranking. This is a very positive change for players and will reward players who advance to the later rounds of these tournaments.

    How will Section tournaments that count for national ranking be affected?
    The ranking points earned at the 12 tournaments each Section designates as Levels 3, 4 and 5 will be reduced.
    This change is an acknowledgment of the inherent flaw in having 17 Sections of different sizes and strengths feeding into one national ranking system. Although reduced, the adjusted ranking points remain higher than the points earned at these tournaments when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.

    CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW ONE'S JUNIOR GETS INTO A NATIONAL TOURNAMENT (WITHOUT THE WILDCARD.... ) IF YOU HAVE NO NATIONAL POINTS?

    ONLY WAY TO PLAY A NATIONAL TOURNAMENT IS TO HAVE NATIONAL POINTS.

    WHERE DO YOU GET THEM? SECTIONAL WINS.

    BUT, THEY JUST REDUCED THE SECTIONAL POINTS.

    WHAT AM I MISSING?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
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  7. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Your logic sounds good.

    So, your daughter trains a lot and then shows up...

    How does she get in without any points?

    Is she part of the Boca USTA group that receives the wc and she gets in?
     
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  8. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    What you want would be well served by the tournaments that have quals. This new system will mostly encourage travel to places like Midland, TX in search of softer draw.
    Can somebody with USTA connection explain why American college coaches support this change? I understand why USTA Player development does. They care only about players who can win national tournaments. And if their players fail to do it - they will get a wildcard into the next one.
     
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  9. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Can Justinmadison explain the long term consequences too?
     
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  10. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Last comment for today -

    Sorry, am so ticked about this.

    First, they mess up the juniors, then they mess up the tens,
    and now with some time on their hands, they mess up the juniors again.

    Sectional play - 2011 - 56 points now for semi finalist

    Sectional play - 2012 - 18 points for semi finalist.

    18 points to reach the semi finals?
     
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  11. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Random thoughts after a quick review (& not giving this a good scrubbing yet):

    - Definitely need to have my "age up in less than 6 mos." kid play up, since it will be impossible to earn many points in his section next year (after he ages up) & he'll need some points to get into tournaments next year.

    - Zonals will be one way for first year guys to snag some points. (they didn't change the points for zonals).

    - If you want a top 50 ranking...you better be prepared to play in 3 out of 4 of the L1s...(or all 4 L1s). Since they've neutered the L2s & L3s.

    - If you play in an L2 or L3.....you'd better be a finalist in the L3 (or a semifinalist in the L2)...or you've basically wasted a trip (from a natl. point perspective) since the point total won't be part of your "top 6".

    - Cool that they neutered the FIC points for L4 & L5 tournaments (aka the monthly sectional ranking tournaments). Too many "middle of the road" guys were snagging big national points for winning ONE or two back draw matches in certain sections.

    - (like tennis5 mentions) The points for Level 5s are ridiculous. 18 points for a semifinalist?? 10 points for a Quarterfinalist??

    Should be interesting to see how this shakes out. Those that don't plan now are going to be screaming 6-12 months from now.

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
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  12. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I agree with your take klu.

    The top 20 kids will be the same on TRN & usta. But for the next 150-200 kids, it will be a "ride the wave" act. Those that understand the system (& their kids deliver) & they'll stay on the board. Others will fall off.

    TRN will be a more accurate yardstick for the 50-250 (in the nation) kids than usta. (i just wish they'd include birth months so we can adjust accordingly).
     
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  13. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    It seems they will also eliminate pos. #6 in Zonals - there are no points listed.
     
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  14. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    For the past two years.....they've had "n/a" shown for line 6 (on the ranking table). But have always given line 6 participants 25 points per win.

    Hopefully that will continue for those who find themselves playing line 6.
     
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  15. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    So true...
     
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  16. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    If you're a top player already none of this matters. I believe that playing in the Southern section is more than good enough for us. I can see how those in weaker sections would want more competition and exposure playing nationals/outside their section.

    I thought the Regional Nationals was a step in the right direction to reduce travel expenses.
     
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  17. tennisforlife77

    tennisforlife77 Rookie

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    The USTA is acknowledging the inherent problem in the current system but unfortunately not doing anything to address is. The sectional level 4 and 5 tournament have never had enough points to be meaningful in terms of a national ranking. They are simply the 1st step on the national ladder. Get some national points in your sectional tournaments to qualify for the level 3's, then the level 2's and ultimately the Supernationals. The problem with the current points system and now this new points system is that is does nothing to address disparity in the level of difficulty of getting points in say Florida or So Cal versus one of the smaller sections. Getting to the R16 on the OC Junior Open means 4 wins in a 256 field against tough competition. The small section player may need to win only 1 match to get those points. I'm not sure these new ppr will change the current dynamic as the ratio of points at levels 2-5 seem to have stayed roughly the same in the early rounds but it will be critical now to start playing up as soon as possible using the lower age division places in the level 2's and 3's. If you lose your spot on the ladder it will be very difficult to get it back. If that occurs through injury this seems very unfair. The qualifying tournament suggestion as they have for ITF events seems like a good one which should give more people a chance to get a spot on the ladder particularly later developing players.
     
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  18. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  19. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    You guys are something else.

    This is nonsense....I know some French/German/Spanish guys that never leave their region of their country (which is about the size of texas) and come out just fine. They still have not found a way to get Juniors, College players, and Pros all playing the same tournaments on a consistent basis......thats the real problem.
     
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  20. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .......................
     
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  21. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    Wow. Do you realize that it takes a great deal of intellect, confidence, and athleticism do be able to earn a scholarship and complete a degree in a second (or third, or fourth) language, in a foreign country? The kids who do so have MY respect.
     
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  22. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    If you are not a junior or a tennis parent of an American junior,
    it must be hard for you to realize or understand that the whole country is not like regions of France, Germany or Spain.

    In some regions of the country,
    and I guess you have never played junior tournaments in our country....
    the tennis level is vastly different in each region.

    I think you would understand that if you grew up here and played the USTA national junior tournament schedule.

    However, as you did not, I am sure you have no idea what I am talking about.
     
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  23. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  24. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    The new PPR table does nothing to fix the problem introduced with the 2011 tournament changes. If anything it makes them worse. All this change will do is compress the point differential for the kids trying to qualify. Once again the changes have a profound negative effect on kids trying to age up. If you age up in 2012 how are you going to compete against kids who received points under the old system? You have no chance of playing nationally this year.

    People keep talking about playing up as a possible solution. It’s not. Everyone knows you must play up to have a chance to advance so everyone is trying for those couple of spots. In the last draw I looked at the #16 kid in the nation did not qualify for a spot. Good luck with that.

    The USTA is trying to manage two incompatible goals. On the one hand they would like to have the best kids compete at the national level. On the other hand they do not want kids to travel. You cannot have both. If you regionalize advancement to national play you will advance the best kids in a region, not the best kids in the country.

    The system had tried to balance these objectives by allowing some kids to advance based on sectional quotes and other kids to advance based on national ranking. This works when you allow the national ranking hopefuls the opportunity to play for points against other sections. Under the old system this was done in the L3 events. People on this board continually complained about “point chasers” but this is exactly what the USTA needs. Point chasers improve the competition levels at tournaments. When you allow inter section play for national points is creates an opportunity for the kids in strong sections to compete for points and determine if their section deserves additional representation in national play.
     
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  25. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    All foreigners take basket weaving and no Americans take basket weaving? I'm going to chalk your comment up to sarcasm, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was serious.
     
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  26. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    While except for a few events this winter and next summer, my family is finishedwith USTA junior competition. My daughter really benefited quite a bit as a player from moving up through sectional play to the national opens and then supernats. She would never have been a threat to win any such event, but her game grew a lot from the competition. She also got to play far more kids with different gameplay styles from different sections in different conditions than she ever would under the new system.

    Although she decided to play college tennis not too far from home, I really think the new system would deny a mid-tier kid like her the opportunity to play up through sectionals to national play.

    While it's pretty clear that the changes are intended to benefit the top tier -- and I have no problem with that -- I just don't see really how it will do so. And for the next tier, the kids will be pretty much consigned to playing in their sections. Not the worst fate in the world for many, but still, I don't see that the new system with any clear advantage.
     
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  27. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    The point chasers I see many times are mediocre kids whose parents are willing to have them play 30 tournaments, go a round or 2, and collect points over time that makes their ranking look much better than their actual playing ability.

    I don't think this type of point chaser helps the level of competition. But it does fill out some draws and provides more revenue so its not all bad.
     
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  28. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Same thing happens at the sectional level.

    Random thought: Lately regarding this and much more of this matter I've had thoughts about the words "commitment" and "tennis".

    I've found the meaning to be interesting depending on who you talk to.
     
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  29. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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  30. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Bingo.
    That is what helped my son's game.
    Going to different parts of the country and seeing how it is played when you are not inside a bubble.
    Playing the same kids over and over again doesn't help grow anyone's game.
     
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  31. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    My theory is that Kennedy...

    Ok, my theory is that the USTA just wants one kid out of this whole junior system to play at the US Open.

    They limit competition to their few kids that they pour millions into....,
    and their kids play at USTA tournaments with only the few best outsider kids.
    (they don't care about the rest, those are the masses of due payers)
    and their kids always will get in to the tournaments via the wild card when they need to age up.
     
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  32. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Depends on the part of the country, depends on the kid, depends on tons of other things. I have seen kids who improve over the years playing other sports in addition to tennis, and only play the same kids at their clubs. As they mature, so do their friends and their friend's games.

    Others just play some local tournaments and spend time on drills and development. Lots of ways to get there.

    You don't really play the "same kids" anyway. As those kids get older, most times their games change. So playing same basic group at age 10 and playing them through age 16 you will see plenty of changes over time.

    The one thing it does help to get "out of the bubble" is delusions. I see kids from one part of the country who think they are top dog get absolutely destroyed when they face the kids from FL and Cali.
     
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  33. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    Yes I did play in Juniors here in the states until the 16s, as I am an american. I dont understand when you say that junior tennis will become weaker if you take travel out of the equation. to me thats nonsense. Because after the 16s I moved to Germany and finished out my juniors there, except I never played Junior tournaments there because their tournaments are open level!!

    And I also saved tons of money on travel because I never played a tournament more then an hour away from my house. The result....I got a scholarship to a top 20 D 1 program, so I would say I know what im talking about.

    after reading your post again...I don't even understand what you are trying to say. I know that you are trying to knock my comments. But you make no sense at all, typical american comments/dribble.
     
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  34. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    The reason is the better players are not all evenly distributed throughout the sections.
    Some juniors have to travel to get to play with better players and also experience different kind of play.
    Also, most of the big national tournaments are in warm weather areas where there are many courts, so you have to travel to get there.
    I am sure if you were a top junior you traveled to winter nationals, Easter Bowl, clay courts, kalamazoo...


    I don't think we are going to agree here....
     
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  35. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    The word you seek is drivel. Dribble is what you do in basketball or find on your chin.
     
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  36. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Personally, I just don't care about rankings. Development and match play are much more important to me than rankings. As my kid gets older, it will take care of itself. Ask a Bollettieri kid what he/she is ranked -- most of them say I don't know.
     
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  37. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    I actually tend to agree with him..but this comment is really funny!
     
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  38. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    This is another case of Jay Berger at his best. This is the only way he can protect his select few players. He has WC spots for all of his players into the Supers so it doesn't matter what they do all year long. Why do you think he had the number of WC spots for the Supers increased last year?

    The guy has proven that he doesn't know how to pick talent and then takes credit for players like Sock.

    How he has managed to keep his position is incredible. How many other people do you know who could blatently fail at their position and keep their job?

    The other thing that is amazing is how they wait until only a couple of months to go and then change it. Do you see ANY other governing body who changes their rules on a yearly basis? NO, because they don't make decisions in one night that affect thousands of players.
     
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  39. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Just curious to know more about how Jay Berger can be considered a failure. Care to elaborate? When did he take credit for Sock?

    The U.S. Congress make crappy decisions all the time. Ref. ObamaCare.
     
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  40. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Actually you can find just as many studies that show the Affordable Care Act has been quite helpful, depends on who you choose to listen too. But that is not for this board, the moderators are quite clear they do not want political references.
     
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  41. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    You know my example is a good one. He asked what governing bodies make changes affecting thousands. I gave one. To your point, I did not intend for it to be subject to debate and understand that some would consider it a good thing.

    So back to my questions. What evidence is out there showing Berger to be a failure in his role? When did he take credit for Sock?
     
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  42. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .......................
     
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  43. andfor

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    I was part of those extensive posts. And no one showed where he took credit for Sock's success. What the announcers say is out of his control. In the Mixed trophy presentation Jack thanked Berger for his assistance during the tournament. But conspiracy theory types say that the announcers are in on hyping the USTA and that Sock knew he had to say that. No proof of any of that. It's just known..............

    I feel your pain for the WC situation. There are only so many to go around. How come at so many Futures events I see open spots in the quailfying draws that could be taken by one of your said left out juniors. Is that his fault too?

    Still have not seen any direct evidence he's a failure or where he directly or indirectly took or asked for credit for either Frantangelo or Sock.

    Check out Sock thanking Berger for his help last year as well. Go to Sept. 2nd. http://www.missourivalley.usta.com/jack_socks_us_open_blog/

    Here's a statement from Sock at this years Open where he says Berger and Higueras are helping him at this tournament. He says he's not permanent anywhere with regards to coaching. http://www.usopen.org/en_US/news/interviews/2011-08-31/201109011314887850155.html

    Guess that still doesn't count for anything............

    Not a Berger fan. Just don't find what's said about him to be fair, let alone have a shred of merit.
     
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  44. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    No, you went political by calling it a "crappy decision". Huge difference to simply providing an example of decisions that affect many. You categorized the decision according to you particular views. Others who were helped think it was a great decision.

    Had you wanted to supply an example of how "governing bodies make changes affecting thousands" you would have simply called it by its real name and not its political slang name, and certainly would not have categorized it as either crappy or great.

    We can vote out anyone who voted against or for health care....tell me where I can vote out Pat Mac if I wanted to?? Apples and oranges.
     
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  45. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Concerning Berger, where is the evidence he is a success? Unless you can provide specific examples than you have answered your quest for evidence that he is a failure.
     
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  46. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Without my adjectives then you admit my example is a good one. I was not trying to talk to anyone on board as if they were stupid. Sorry (and I mean that) you are so thinned skinned about this.

    The 2300 + page bill was poorly conceived and negatively affects far more than it helps. Thus my example.......
     
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  47. andfor

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    I never said he was a success. Just asking for someone to show me he's a failure. They can't.
     
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  48. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    See, political. I read an independent study that showed multi millions of people between ages 18-35 who had no health care, now do. And the benefits short and long term will be massive. Other studies say the opposite.

    And thats why we keep politics off the forum in all forms.

    The example does not work because you and I elect the officials making those decisions....I never got to vote for or against Pat Mac.
     
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  49. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    You will ask for evidence he is a failure. I will ask for evidence he is a success.

    How do we break the dead lock unless we know exactly what his job goals are, money spent, kids worked with, their results pre Berger/post Berger?
     
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  50. andfor

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    So it's OK to call someone or anyone for that matter a failure in a vacuum? But when questioning that position the only way to validate even asking the question is to be able to support the opposite position, why he's a success?

    As I said. I think it's unfair to call the guy a failure with nothing to back it up.

    I did not call him either a success or failure. Just ask the poster who called him a failure for evidence to support the claim. I posted evidence of Sock thanking Berger for his help. And posted where Sock said he was aligned with no particular coach.
     
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