Newcombe's achievements as an Open era player

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Hoad and Gonzales made piles of money in 1958 and 1959, Gonzales about $100,000 in 1958, Hoad about $200,000 in 1958 and well over $100,000 in 1959, enough for him to semi--retire.

    In the 1960's, Laver and Rosewall made less money than Emerson and Santana, as the amateur managers got into serious war with the pros.

    Ridiculous.
     
    #51
  2. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Well said.

    Kramer had very limited sense for marketing or growing the game in a big way.

    Kramer simply followed the format of pro tours in the 1930's.

    TV was the way to build sports interest.

    In 1959, Kramer did start a year-long pro circuit of 14 designated tournaments, with a bonus pool, but it was only one year.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
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  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, US Pro is US Pro even if not authorized.

    Kramer obtained the rights in 1959? Then why not an official US Pro in 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962?
     
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  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Scarborough was also not a big event in the 1950s. Maybe in one or two years only.
     
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  5. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    Yes, Palmer had charisma in spades, unlike Nicklaus who was pretty dour until his later years. Trevino was a big character.
     
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  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...and Gary Player:)
     
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  7. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Cleveland was never the "US Pro", but the "World Pro".
    McCauley uses the correct designation.

    I pointed out earlier that there was no pro Forest Hills tourney in 1960, 1961, or 1962.

    I believe that was a precondition to use the "US Pro" title.

    Kramer was afraid that without Gonzales in the lineup, the 1960 event would not work, also without Hoad in 1961, and without Gonzales again in 1962.

    Trabert tried in 1963 with Laver now a pro, and it was a disaster.

    Tough times followed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
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  8. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Scarborough was an excellent stadium, and long tradition.

    When the pros were big news, the fifties, it worked.
     
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  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You err for the hundredth time: Joe McCaules has used both "World Pro" and "US Pro". You have to read his words exactly.

    I meant: As Kramer had got the rights for US Pro, then why was Cleveland still not sanctioned by USPLTA from 1959 to 1962?
     
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  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, In which years Scarborough had tough fields???
     
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  11. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    Anecdotally, I can tell you that among younger generations of casual sports fans, Federer and Nadal had this drawing power for a time (Nadal may to some extent have it still, though in a minor key across the sports world). Serena and Venus as well. Arguably Agassi, though perhaps more as a celebrity than as a sports figure.

    Had Nadal and Federer met again at Wimbledon after their famous 2008 final - or at any point at the US Open from approximately 2008-11 - I think the casual sports fan would've tuned in for that and future tennis matches. That rivalry combined with the SW19 and Open hype machines would've done good things in terms of growing the sport.

    That moment has surely passed by now.
     
    #61
  12. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    No, he used "World Pro".

    Check again. See page 83, page 92 and page 100. "World Pro"...no mention of "US Pro".

    Cleveland was never sanctioned as the "US Pro", before or after 1959.

    I think that Forest Hills was a precondition to using the title.

    Both Jack March, who staged a legitimate US Pro at Forest Hills in 1951, and Kramer backed away from the commitment involved at Forest Hills.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
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  13. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    1952, 1953, 1955, 1958, 1959, 1963.

    All the greats were there.
     
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  14. Steve132

    Steve132 Professional

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    If Federer no longer has that drawing power, why is he still able to command an appearance fee of $1 million for any tournament that he enters, and why is he rated, along with Tiger Woods, as the world's most valuable sporting brand?

    Nadal's figures are not quite as stratospheric, but they are still very impressive indeed.
     
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  15. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    Federer's got a lot of drawing power, as does Nadal, but it's stabilized I think. Casual fans may check the score of their matches when they play these days, but I think there was a window for awhile there in which had they met a few more times at SW19/US Open, they'd have pulled in more non-tennis fans than they would today.

    Connors and Borg met in two straight Wimbledons and two out of three US Open finals from 1976-78, and then you had the Mac v. Borg rivalry from 1980-81 at the biggest venues. Then of course Connors and Mac had big encores in 1982 and 1984 after Borg took off.

    After they built the rivalry to a big enough level to draw in the non-fan b/w 2006-08 at RG/SW19, Roger and Rafa had AO 2009, YEC 2010, and RG 2011 as their biggest encounters. It's just not quite the same - that's all I'm saying. I agree they both are huge stars in the sporting world.
     
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  16. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    It is not financial drawing power that I am talking about. The numbers you quote are par for the course for any top star in sport these days. As a sports fan I can rattle off their names

    Le Bron James (have I got that right, I know virtually nnothing about basketball)
    Federer/Nadal
    Ronaldo/Messi
    Hamilton/Vettel
    etc

    and I might go and see them out of interest because I am interested to see what makes them so special. The question is who would my wife, who is not really interested in sport (she likes going to Wimbledon for the occasion, but the tennis only interests her mildly) want to see 'because she has heard about them and wants to see what they are like', even though she has no interest in their sport.

    There are very few of those sort of stars. Federer and Nadal got close, as did Agassi, but I don't think they made it beyond sports fans. I think Venus and Serena did in their early days because of their back story. The Big Three maintained it because of the explosive character of M and C and the iceman contrast of Borg, and because tennis was more important in those days.

    Off the top of my head I can only think of Usain Bolt who has that charisma right now, and Tiger Woods.
     
    #66
  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Is there any other case of such a fast adjustment from amateurs to pros? I mean, winning right out a pro slam like that?

    Gonzales,Laver never did it so fast, did they'
     
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  18. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Olmedo didn't either.
     
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  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I have to make some research on that issue.Cooper and Anderson, as well as Gimeno seemed to be losing big time for some time.
     
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  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Thanks, Dan. I could have read the results for my own. No need to write them down.

    Perry and Budge were grandpas when they played at Scarborough.

    We did not talk about Eastbourne!

    I will write to Hall of Fame to enshine Khaled, Romanoni, Roberts, and Cawthorn!

    Worthington a top player?
     
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  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...and Don Candy??? what happened to Don Candy???
     
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  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Even a blind chicken finds a corn sometimes, as we say in German...

    Olmedo did very little as a pro. He only finished at place 7 in the great tour in 1964, behind Hoad and ahead of Ayala who managed to win no single match in 18 tournaments.....
     
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  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    OK but what I meant is that there are few, if any cases of such a fast transition.But when you are as talented and mighty as Olmedo, everything can happen.
     
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  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Olmedo met an out of shape Trabert.

    Rosewall lost his first pro match, against Gonzalez, only in five sets.The last set was 9-7.

    Laver won his third match against Rosewall.

    Olmedo lost 15 straight games against Rosewall at the 1960 Wembley...
     
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  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Anderson won the 1959 Wembley with big wins against Sedgman, Rosewall and Segura in his first year as a pro!
     
    #75
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    that is impressive.Thanks bobby one.
     
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  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    1960 was peak Rosewall.
     
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  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Candy was better than Khaled and the other Dan's favourites...

    He actually was great in doubles together with Mervyn Rose. They won the French doubles and reached the US final.

    Candy is 3:7 against Rosewall (several matches when Ken was a baby).
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
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  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Your knowledge never ceases to overwhelm me.

    I agree on Rose, underrated but excellent player in an era loaded with great amateurs and pros.

    Didn´t Candy become Shriver´s coach ?
     
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  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I´d say Laver didn´t become the dominating pro until 1965.
     
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  31. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kiki,

    I agree. Rosewall turned pro in 1957 and had three years as a pro already. He was 25 most of the year and turned 26 on November 2, 1960. Physically and mentally he was at his peak. He already won two pro majors over Segura and Hoad. He lost the Tournament of Champions which really was a major to Gonzalez in 1958. Point is this, if Rosewall was not as his peak he certainly was darn close yet he lost 15 of 19 to a past peak Gonzalez. A lot of players seem not to play well against Pancho Gonzalez. I have a hunch Gonzalez may have a little bit to do with it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
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  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I agree even though Rosewall was almost as good in 1965 winning two majors plus the top claycourt event at Reston, all with clear wins against Laver in final.
     
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  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    While Laver´s prime is 61-70 ( 59-60 is pre prime and 71-72 is post prime), his real peak play was 1964-1969, with a highest peak in 1967
     
    #83
  34. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Bobby maybe you should learn a bit history. For 1965: Laver won tournaments 18/32, match win/loss 75-18, Rosewall was 6/26, 50-30, hth was 12-5 Laver according to McCauley. If that is not a clear year, what is a clear year? And openly said, if Reston would be the fourth important event on the pro tour (over venues like New York, Melbourne, Los Angeles, Newport) i would say, Goodbye pro Tennis in 1965.
     
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  35. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Laver was clearly the dominant player on the Old Pro Tour from the mid to late 1960's. He won the most majors, tournaments and had the highest winning percentage. He won the Pro Grand Slam which included the 1967 Wimbledon Pro, probably the most important tournament in the history of that tour.
     
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  36. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Budge? He was runner-up at Cleveland in 1953.

    Was Budge a "Grandpa" at Cleveland, or just Scarborough?

    Did they ever fix that weird scoring system at Cleveland?
     
    #86
  37. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Don Candy had some big upsets.
     
    #87
  38. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    I rate Rosewall #5 all-time.

    That is higher than most experts rate him.

    How does that make me a Rosewall-hater?

    Some logic.

    Top clay event of 1965, Cannes: Laver df. Gimeno 7-5, 7-5, 6-3

    Reston was a best-of-three sets whistle-stop.

    Bobby, you make me laugh.
     
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  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Dan,

    I may disagree and change it to 1957 simply because at the beginning of 1957, the start of the Gonzalez-Rosewall tour Gonzalez was far better than Rosewall. Remember Kramer said that Gonzalez carried Rosewall in their first four matches on the tour in which Gonzalez led 3-1. Rosewall would improve later that year because of his introduction to the Old Pro Tour. The Rosewall of later 1957 was far superior to the Rosewall of 1956 imo just as the Laver of later 1963 was far superior to the Grand Slam winning Laver of 1962. It's just the way it was.

    Hoad improved upon his introduction to playing the great player on the Old Pro Tour.

    Also to get back on topic somewhat Newcombe improved tremendously by playing greats like Laver.

    Oddly enough I do feel that Newcombe's most consistent year overall during the Open Era was in 1974 when he did not win any Classic Majors. Newcombe, because he won the WCT Championship in such great fashion was considered the top player in the world for the first half of 1974, even over Jimmy Connors at that point. He won ten tournaments for the year. The WCT Championships was one of the most coveted titles in tennis, up there with Wimbledon and the US Open. I think Newcombe said his goals for that year was to win the WCT Championship and Wimbledon which shows the importance of the WCT Championship.

    I think overall Newcombe was an underachiever considering his great talents. When in shape and healthy he had one of the overall great service games of all time. He had a fantastic volley and Vic Braden once wrote that under Edberg and McEnroe he moved in closer to hit his first volley than virtually anyone. His forehand was awesome and arguably the best in tennis. He could win on all surfaces. He was fantastic in winning the Davis Cup in 1973 anchoring a great Australian team. He was clearly the top player over Laver and Rosewall.

    I think one of the problems was that he was relatively old when Open Tennis started being born in 1944. He would be 30 the year he won the WCT Championship. His last tournament won was the 1975 Australian over the great Jimmy Connors.

    Dan L, I would recommend that you discuss a lot of the Rosewall topics in the Hoad career discussion thread because posters want to discuss the topic of the thread. It seems so many threads become a Rosewall discussion thread. I don't think Timnz wanted that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
    #89
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Back to Newk, he was considered the best fifth set player in the world.And many majors were won in the fifth set and that has been already mentioned some time during their careers by the likes of Ashe and Borg.

    The WCT title must have flattened him out, he lost to Rosewall at the W QF and USO SF, not a shameful loss at all, but he didn´t have that extra gear behind that made him famous.

    Curiously, he also failed quite unexpectedly to Vilas in his home grass courts during the 74 Masters.I remember he had never played Vilas before and that may explain the loss, plus the fact that Vilas was playing off his mind the whole event.I think he rated Vilas BH passing shot as even better than Laver´s.
     
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  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Rosewall was far away from his peak in 1956, 1957, 1958 and maybe 1959.
     
    #91
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You make me cry! A man of that great knowledge about tennis with so silly arguments...

    It's good you rate Rosewall No.5. I never said you are a Rosewall hater. I referred to some of your nonsense claims regarding your darling!!!

    Cannes was never the top clay event in 1965 as Rosewall, Gonzalez and Anderson were missed.
     
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  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, You forget that Rosewall beat Newcombe in the 1970 US Open in three sets, long before any WCT finals.
     
    #93
  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I would recommend you feel free to write even about other payers in the Newcombe and any threads, as it is usual in all threads. Even infallible pc1 uses to write about other players (Laver, Rosewall and so on) in this (see posts 88,92,99) and other threads. I don't see those many Rosewall threads at all....
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
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  45. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That was among the best matches I've ever seen Vilas play on grass. You would think after that fabulous victory that Vilas might have won a few Wimbledons but he of course did not.
     
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  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yes, but Newk beat Rosewall three times in a row: Wimbledon 70 and 71 and Forest Hills 73

    I think, Rosewall also beat Newcombe at a WCT final ( 71 or 72), and as you know, Dallas is a clear major to me.
     
    #96
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Oh well, Kooyong was really so much different from West Side or All England, you know.Vilas played three AO finals later in his career ( and another sf) but didn´t get further the QF at Wimbledon ( he lost there to the likes of Nduka Odizor,Tim Wilkinson and Billy Martin)

    Many consider 1977 his best year, but his 74 season was extraordinary, topped with that win at the YEC that stunned the whole tennis world.Well, Vilas in the second half of 1974, was playing off his mind, serving better than ever, volleying better than ever, and hitting harder than ever lobs and passings.I don´t think, as well as he played in 1977 and 1982, that he has ever played as well as that week.I don´t think he would have lost even to Jimmy Connors if Connors had entered the Masters.He really was a wild horse out there, playing like a possesed man ( he destroyed Borg as well as Newcombe and Ramirez before stunning Nastase)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
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  48. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Please count rightly: US Open 1970 and WCT 1971 are between Wimbledon 1970 and US Open 1973, WCT 1971 is between Wimbledon 1971 and US Open 1973.
     
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  49. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I was watching the summer circuit on television that year and it seemed to be the Guillermo Vilas show with guests like Orantes, Dibbs, Solomon, Laver and Nastase at times. Every week Vilas was on and of course he developed a huge following in the United States. The lefty poet tennis player from Argentina.

    No one expected him to play so well at the Masters on grass that year. It was such a powerful performance. To be honest I don't think Newcombe played as well as he could have in that tournament but perhaps Vilas would have given a top flight Newcombe trouble also considering how well Vilas played. He beat Nastase, Newcombe, Borg, Ramirez among others in that tournament without a loss! That's such a great field.
     
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  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    OK, anyway it is even with Rosewall winning at Dallas, Wimbledon and twice at Forest Hills and Newcombe winning twice at Wimbledon and once at Forest Hills.I think Newcombe also defeat Rosewall in the WCT Philadelphia indoors, am I correct?
     

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