Newcombe's achievements as an Open era player

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    1970 U.S. Open USA Grass SF ROSEWALL 3-6 4-6 3-6
    1970 Wimbledon GBR Grass FR NEWCOMBE 5-7 6-3 6-2 3-6 6-1
    1970 WCT St Louis USA QF ROSEWALL 6-8 5-7
    1970 WCT Corpus Christi USA FR ROSEWALL 2-6 0-6
    1971 WCT Finals USA QF ROSEWALL 5-7 2-6 7-5 3-6
    1971 Canadian Open CAN SF NEWCOMBE 7-6 6-2
    1971 Wimbledon GBR Grass SF NEWCOMBE 6-1 6-1 6-3
    1971 WCT Chicago USA SF NEWCOMBE 7-6 7-5
    1972 WCT Las Vegas USA QF NEWCOMBE 6-4 7-6
    1972 WCT Charlotte USA 16 ROSEWALL 2-6 5-7
    1973 Tokyo Outdoor JPN FR ROSEWALL 1-6 4-6
    1973 U.S. Open USA Grass SF NEWCOMBE 6-4 7-6 6-3
    1974 Tokyo Outdoor JPN FR NEWCOMBE 3-6 6-2 6-3
    1974 U.S. Open USA Grass SF ROSEWALL 7-6 4-6 6-7 3-6
    1974 Wimbledon GBR Grass QF ROSEWALL 1-6 6-1 0-6 5-7
    1974 Tokyo FR NEWCOMBE 3-6 6-2 6-3

    This may not be all the matches but they are some of them. I believe Rosewall leads the series by a little although it would show here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks for this PC1.It cannot be more even, with 8 wins apiece at regular tournaments.A great match up, whatsoever.

    I was wrong with Phily; it was Laver whom Newcombe beat in the 1971 final.
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Definitely so.

    I also recall that summer, and curiously, I think the only player who dominated the main US summer cc events just like Vilas did in 74 was another argentinian...Jose Luis Clerc, in 1981.

    The US summer suited fantastic to those 2 argentinians, isn´t it?
     
  4. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    On Newcombes's resume in open era, i looked up a wikiside on his career stats. They give him 68 titles overall, 34 in open era. Like written before, he had a bit tough luck never to get a full calendar year of excellent results. In 1972 for instance, he won 6 WCT Events, and 7 overall, but 5/6 in the late season, which was a bit overshadowed by the spring season. He couldn't compete at Wim in 1972 and 1973. His most productive season was 1974 with 10 titles, which had to the greater part better fields than many of the 14 titles Connors won the same year. In retrospect, 1974 looks really close. If, the big IF, Newcombe had won that semi at Forest Hills against Rosewall, it would have been a match for Nr. 1 against Connors in the final. Like it would have been against Nastase at Boston in late 1973.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  5. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Never thought about how important that semi against Rosewall was in 1974 at Forest Hills. Newcombe and Connors in a US Open final would have been quite a match. I don't know if Newcombe would have won but I think the match would have been very close.
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Newk clearly set one thing in his mind for 74: WCT championship.That led to a fantastic first half topped with the Dallas win.

    But, after that, he clearly flattened out, beaten by Rosewall at Wimbledon and the US Open and Vilas at the Masters.That is very understandable.
     
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That was his main goal for the year and after that would be Wimbledon. He seemed almost invincible for the first half of 1974. I felt sorry for Stan Smith after another one of the defeats that Newcombe give him. Newcombe was just a little more solid in most areas than Stan Smith.
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    But in 1973, it had happened exactly the other way round.
    WCT was so demanding, not just the championship but the tour itself, that it flattened out the winners for the rest of the season; until Ashe.

    Look at Rosewall in 71 and 72, Smith in 73 and Newcombe in 74.Big defeats at Wimbledon or Forest Hills happened after winning at Dallas.Mental and physical burden.
     
  9. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Exactly, the WCT tour was very demanding. Newk didn't play WCT in 1973, and did well the second half of the season, Rosewall didn't play WCT in 1974, doing well at the 2 Majors, and Connors played the light Riordan circuit instead of WCT in 1974. Nastase played WCT for the first time 1974, and played a lot worse than in 1973.
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ashe broke that, winning WCT and Wimbledon the same year.That is a high tribute to him.

    As for Newk in 74, he gained a big boost when he beat S Smith at the New Hempstead tournament ( they both played in the same group).That lifted his spirit and kept him on a roll for the rest of the tour.
     
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Just for curious people, the Riordan tour featured some of Nastase - but not really much- and some other players like Amritraj,Sandy Mayer,Meiler and Gerulaitis - still far from his prime-.

    Connors dominated it rather easily
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Don't trust ATP and pc1. Rosewall leads Newcombe 14:10 and 4:3 in majors. For instance the 7-5, 6-3 win of Muscles in the 1972 Hilton Head CBS Classic final is missing. Rosewall played with an injured foot after he had stepped on a nail in the court (much blood in his foot).

    One of Ken's greatest wins at all, that in the Kramer's ToC at Wembley in 1968 (all top pros participating) is also missed. Rosewall beat Newk in the final in four sets.

    They always met in regular tournaments, from 1968 to 77. Muscles was 33 to 43.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  13. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kiki, as I wrote. It's not all the matches.
     
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, You have Tokyo 1974 twice! A mistake by ATP or ITF.
     
  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    This is an error on my part because I was quickly looking at what the ITF missed because I was in a rush today.

    Bobby,

    I am disappointed in you in a couple of ways. First while I know you do not care for me and question my opinions, you should know me well enough to know I won't lie on information or frankly lie on this site. I mentioned to Kiki that was not all the head to head and I believed Rosewall led the series. Just because you have placed me in a black hole doesn't mean you should label me as something that cannot be trusted.

    My opinions like I have written can change. Life changes.

    I will look up my Rosewall information to double check the true head to head between Newk and Rosewall.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Actually Bobby if I counted correctly, Rosewall leads Newcombe by 15 to 9, not 14 to 10. I have a computer program to check when the word Newcombe shows up so I believe I'm correct.

    Have I ever not trusted your facts? I don't always believe your opinions or your logic but I always believe your facts, human error notwithstanding. You label me too quickly as an enemy and a person who cannot be trusted. It's rather sad that you do that. I may disagree with you but disagree and labeling one as an enemy are different things. Calling a person an enemy is awful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  17. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    PC1's information is golden. If he writes something it's because he believes it to be true and he simply calls it like he sees it. He never intentionally puts out wrong facts that's for sure. On the topic of Newcombe and Rosewall, perhaps you could look at the rivalry in two ways: peak play and career accomplishments in totality. Two outstanding players. They both strike me as gritty competitors.
     
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Had they played doubles together,it may have been the most complementary team ever!
    Best serve,forehand and top 5 FH volley
    Best return,backhand and top 5 BH volley
    The team I really miss
     
  19. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I think, PC 1's stats are most trustworthy, as are the stats by Andrew Tas, Carlo Colussi, Bobby One, Krosero and others. Of course there can be disagreement about selection and evaluation.
     
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Why so over-sensible??? You are not that sensible when putting me down (I'm not allowed to contradict you because you have analyzed history so much; I distort threads to Rosewall threads; I'm too partial reg. Muscles and so on).

    I just meant kiki should not trust you at THIS one point because you used wrong ATP of ITF numbers!! Not a crime at all by yourself or by myself.

    By the way, you yet wrote a Rosewall edge would show in your list. What did it mean? That the list is complete?

    You are wrong: I always did care for you but sometimes I dare to contradict you as you contradict me. No problem.

    I have not written you lied. Get serious!

    It was you who placed me in a black hole in February after a fine 12 years friendship. I just cannot get over with that...(Maybe later).

    I researched the Newcombe-Rosewall tally and it concures with that of Andrew Tas.
     
  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Then perhaps you should brush up on your English because you did not clarify that. And get over your grudges. You're not a child.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, I wrote that it was an ATP error not your error.

    I wonder about a 15:9 balance. Please give me details.

    I do know that Newcombe beat Rosewall in the 1970 Atlanta pro tournament by 7-5 (one set match) for third place. Maybe this is missing.

    Please don't create probems where there are no problems. I usually trust your facts but in that case (your ITF list) you were wrong quoting that bad ITF list. I fear you wanted to show that Newcombe was as good as Rosewall which would be wrong.

    I still have a high opinion about your tennis knowledge!

    But you are my enemy since February and since you managed to ban me and to delete my posts and since you showed some arrogance (regarding your expertise that Rosewall was at his peak in early 1960s because you "have analyzed history") and since you try to belittle Rosewall several times.

    You are free to hate ME but why do you hate ROSEWALL, one of the greatest players and a true GOAT candidate and a very nice person???
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    borg number one, It honours you that you defend your friend. How do you come to the absurd claim I could have meant that pc1 puts out intentionally wrong facts???????? Are we in a mental home here???
     
  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, As far as I know they played together only once, alas. Fine analysis.
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    urban, I agree of course. But in that specific case pc1 used a wrong ITF list with about 8 missing results plus with a wrong "Tokyo 1974 doubles". Errare humanum est...

    No problem at all.
     
  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Again nasty! It's very strange you critisize my English after more then 7500 posts. I'm sure you and the other readers have understood my words.

    Yes, get over your grudges: You never were able to seriously handle my e-mails where I plead for Roche over Newcombe (reg. peak play) and showed your self-contradictions.

    You firstly should learn how to make serious discussions and how to get mature...
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Delete post.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  28. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    We we are not in a mental home here, but hopefully neither on a battlefield with repeated words like hate, enemy and so on. Better leave this on other parts of the forum between Fedfans and Nadalfans. In this part of the Forum i see no hate to any Player and nothing like respect for the older players, especially Rosewall, who is indeed underrated in many modern and older rankings - that is not the fault of any poster here -, who holds fine records and whose game was wonderful in its simplicity.
     
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You are of course correct Urban. Thank you for your calm logical words.
     
  30. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I am going to attempt to explain this again. I do not hate Rosewall. I love Rosewall's game but I don't think he's the GOAT. I know his game very well and I know all his stats. I simply think some others are better. I don't hate you. I know your personality and think you're a decent person. But people disagree at times. That's a fact of life. If everyone had the same opinion it would be a boring world. This is a forum for tennis debate. There is no need to argue. It doesn't have to be a battle. If you believe Rosewall is the best that should be good enough.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  31. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    When you write "don't trust the ATP or PC1" that's a horrible way to put it BobbyOne. You must know that. Why not state, PC1 had a minor error...... So, as I pointed out PC1 information's is very sound, yet of course all of us sometimes make an error here or there about a player, year, or result, etc. I never claimed anything about what you posted. Your name is not even in the post, so why make that absurd claim? As we know PC1 has an outstanding record of posting on this forum for many years, so as Urban mentioned let's not throw around words like enemy, hate, and mental home and let's stick to tennis discussions instead of personal insults and accusations. We all have our opinions on different players and by and large in this forum, unlike others, posters have watched tennis for decades.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  32. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Narrow-Minded Instrument Obsessive Disorder: The first recorded statement of the concept was Abraham Kaplan's, in 1964: "I call it the Law of the Instrument, and it may be formulated as follows: Give a small boy a hammer, and he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding." Abraham Maslow said in 1966, "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

    Other forms of Narrow-Minded Instrument Obsessive Disorder include: déformation professionnelle, a French term for looking at things from the point of view of one's profession, daily activity, or obsession, and Regulatory Capture, the tendency for regulators to look at all things from the point-of-view of the industry they are regulating.



    Moi aussi.
     
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  33. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    .............
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  34. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    In 1957, he won Wembley.

    In 1958 and 1959, he won Roland Garros once and had great showings at Forest Hills.

    Never got better than that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  35. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    The EVENT was greater than Reston.
     
  36. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    At Toronto in 1971, Newcombe beat Rosewall and Okker ON CLAY to win the Canadian Open.
     
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    urban, please don't blame (only) me for using words like hate and enemy. Read pc1's recent posts with all his wrong claims and self-contradictions ("we were not in disagreement"!!!!!!!!!, "I was not upset" even though he WAS upset when I claimed one of his claims was wrong, and so on).

    Since February pc1 tries to belittle Muscles rather often ("Rosewall had three pro years behind him and yet lost to past-peak Gonzalez" and similar monsense).
     
  38. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan: Non-expert.
     
  39. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, Bobby!

    How could you forget that Newcombe outlasted Rosewall in a marathon five-setter at Roland Garros in 1968?

    That is very odd.

    Did you "forget" on purpose?
     
  40. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby: biased.
     
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    borg number one, I concede it was wrong to formulate that way. I did mean that ATP or ITF and pc1 were wrong in this ONE point. But it's unfair to write I make an absurd claim. It was you who wrote that pc1 did not INTENTIONALLY put wrong data! I never claimed that!!!

    And: You must know: pc1 did and does know that Rosewall leads Newcombe by 14:10 and yet he gave that two-folded wrong ITF record just to show that Newcombe was equal with Rosewall. Rather nasty, I think.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  42. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Bobby, you conveniently "forgot" about Newcombe's marathon win over Rosewall at Roland Garros in 1968, and Newcombe's win on clay over Rosewall at the 1971 Canadian Open.
     
  43. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    "Perry and Budge grandpas at Scarborough"?

    Here are some more results for Scarborough.

    1948 Slazenger final at Scarborough

    Fred Perry df. Yvon Petra 3-6, 6-4, 6-2, 6-1

    (Petra was 1946 Wimbledon champion, Kramer also in that field)

    1949 Slazenger Pro at Scarborough

    semis: Budge df. Pails 7-5, 6-2, 4-6, 6-4 (Pails df. Segura on tour)

    Kramer df. Segura 6-4, 2-6, 6-0, 6-3

    final Kramer df. Budge 4-6 7-5 6-2 6-4
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  44. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    No I did not know the exact head to head Bobby. I only knew Rosewall led. I give that information quickly because I was in a rush to take care of some work. I did point out that I believed that Rosewall led. And to be honest Bobby if I counted correctly you didn't know the exact head to head either.

    I have some major responsibilities that are more important than this website. I wanted Kiki to at least see some of the scores of the matches. You read too much into things. I do not mislead. You assume the worst and that was not the case.

    And while my memory is fine I cannot assume everything I remember is correct unless I check. I may believe Rosewall is ahead but I could be wrong.

    This is an example of how you accuse me of being misleading. You are wrong.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  45. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Here are the stats I have for the head to head between Newcombe and Rosewall. Of course bear in mind I'm human and can make errors.
    Here's the head to head, hopefully I didn't make any mistakes which is possible.
    1. Newcombe wins 6-4 6-1 5-7 1-6 6-4 at the French Pro
    2. Rosewall wins 6-4 4-6 7-5 6-4 at the Jack Kramer T of C
    3. Rosewall wins 6-2 6-0 at Corpus Christi
    4. Rosewall wins 5-7 7-5 6-1 6-2 at the 1970 Tennis Champions Classic
    5. Rosewall wins 8-6 7-5 at 1970 WCT St Louis
    6. Newcombe wins 7-5 6-3 6-2 3-6 6-1 1970 Wimbledon final
    7. Rosewall wins 6-4 6-4 at the 1970 Green Welsh Open
    8. Rosewall wins 6-3 6-4 6-3 at Forest Hills at the 1970 US Open
    9. Newcombe wins 7-6 7-5 at 1970 WCT Chicago
    10. Newcombe wins 6-1 6-1 6-3 1970 Wimbledon
    11. Newcombe wins 7-6 6-2 1971 Canadian Open
    12. Rosewall wins 7-5 6-2 5-7 6-3 1971 WCT finals
    13. Rosewall wins 7-5 6-3 1972 CBS Classic
    14. Rosewall wins 6-2 7-5 1972 WCT Charlotte
    15. Newcombe wins 6-4 7-6 1972 WCT Las Vegas
    16. Newcombe wins 5-7 1-6 7-5 6-4 6-4 1972 WCT Fort Worth
    17. Newcombe wins 6-4 7-6 6-3 1973 US Open
    18. Rosewall wins 6-1 6-4 1973 Tokyo
    19. Rosewall wins 6-1 1-6 6-0 7-5 1974 Wimbledon
    20. Rosewall wins 6-7 6-4 7-6 6-3 1974 US Open
    21. Newcombe wins 3-6 6-2 6-3 Tokyo Outdoor
    22. Rosewall wins 7-5 4-6 6-1 1975 Gunze tournament Tokyo
    23. Rosewall wins 7-6 6-2 Pacific Land Player
    24. Rosewall wins 6-3 6-3 1977 Gunze

    If I added correctly it's 15 to 9 in favor of Rosewall.
     
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Pc1
    You have passed the Arian ultimate test
     
  47. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    By the way not enough about Newcombe's exploits as the top player for the 1973 Davis Cup team has been mentioned. Newk was clearly the top player for Australia for their great Davis Cup win in 1973. His first match with Stan Smith set the tone. And he was super in the Davis Cup doubles against the team of Smith and Erik Van Dillen although Laver was even better in my opinion. I wish I could see a video of his match against Smith.

    That has to count for a lot in Newcombe's resume in the Open Era.
     
  48. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Since I was discussing Davis Cup, what is the greatest Davis Cup team ever? A lot of people thought the 1973 Australian team with Laver, Newcombe and Rosewall were but I think they were perhaps a little too old. I could see that team being the greatest potentially around 1967 with Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Roche, Emerson as the team. Laver and Rosewall would be in the singles and Newcombe and Roche the doubles. That would be very hard to beat.
     
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Newk married a german player,isn' it?
    What happened between you and Bobby in regards to Roche vs Newcombe?
    I don't see any possible argument here!
     
  50. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Newk married Angie P.
     

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