NJCAA restricts foreign players

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by TennisCoachFLA, May 14, 2011.

  1. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    #1
  2. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    [QUOTE
    This should make some folks who post here quite happy.[/QUOTE]

    next D1 tennis.. keeping my fingers crossed ..
     
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  3. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    Id been told they could not do this for some kind of discrimination reason (I dont know how genuine this actually is), interesting to see how it proceeds
     
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  4. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    This has been discussed in a previous thread here.

    More political genius by those who know best. Let's see what the unintended consequences are when the rule goes into full effect. Just my guess, but I betting (not hoping) that some schools drop tennis due to not being able to field enough American players to compete.

    It's been my argument all along for keeping restrictions against foreigners on college tennis rosters. Try this at the NCAA DI and DII levels and you'll see a bunch of teams go away or become completely non-competitive. Why not have the competition level at the best it can be. I don't get it.

    Not every tennis kid can play at Tennessee, Virginia, Miami, USC or Ohio State. For that matter many very good American tennis playing juniors will not give the time of day to schools (just examples) like Nebraska, Drake, Baylor or Oregon. Net enough legitimate DI American tennis players for that matter really want to play at many schools to field a competitive squad without filling in the need for players with foreigners.
     
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  5. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Yes, there are always unintended consequences. Colleges compete to have the best academics and best athletics. The blend of top foreign students and professors and athletes push all kids, Americans included, to do better.

    Seems to me they should keep a close eye on the age and amateur status of the foreign players and then let the best players of equal age range and status make the teams. The college coaches I know will give the nod to the American player if he is close in ability to the foreign player.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2011
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  6. eliza

    eliza Guest

    I am a foreigner, and I did not live ONE day without somebody reminding me of it, in a negative way.
    Quite frankly it does not surprise me, as we are just an easy political target. The treatment of foreign borns has been deteriorating in the recent years, and we have become the "reason" for all kinds of faults.
    I only wish that European government would apply the same to US citizens. They would be crying before their Embassy after only a day.........
     
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  7. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    No offense to you, but do you know how hard it is for Americans to get a work permit in many countries overseas ?
     
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  8. Satsuma Florida

    Satsuma Florida Rookie

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    It's tough anywhere, but maybe America is criticized more for the way they treat foreigners because of the way they proclaim themselves a "free country" or "come live the American dream", when in fact it's not such a dream at all.
     
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  9. eliza

    eliza Guest

    no offense taken. I personally know more than 20 who just moved to Italy and are living there in grandeur. Many are now entrepreneurs, who got help and subsidies with no problems because they ae Americans. One (who had gone to Law School in Chicago) even went there and got his license to practise Italian(?) and American law. Do you know what I am told, if I want to do the same (and please note, I was already licensed in Italy)? Go back to school, from College up....Do you think is fair?
     
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  10. wanatabe mixer

    wanatabe mixer New User

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    It simply isn't fair for an 18 year old to have to play against a 22 year old semi-professional.
     
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  11. eliza

    eliza Guest

    I have two remarks:
    1) the traditional "give me the rejected masses"......In which I truly believed it, otherwise I would not have crossed the Ocean. America belongs (or should belong) to everybody;
    2) it is tough to believe politicians who are now advertising (NY mayor, MI governor) "foreigners come and live here, this is a great place", and then to be told that if you want to come here you have NO rights, NO benefits, bring YOUR money, work WHERE I WANT (and do not even think about changing job, or even location in the same company, you would lose the visa)......
    And it becomes absolutely bizarre when coming to this (personal experience).
    My father is retired. He was willing to come and live close to me. It would have meant bringing his nice pension here, buying a house here, spend money here. Right? Well. Not a chance. He can visit, but no permanent permit/visa/whatever. Does this make sense to you?
     
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  12. goober

    goober Legend

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    Community colleges are not the same as 4 year universities.

    Their mission is to serve the local surrounding communities. Bringing in a lot of foreign star athletes as a stepping stone for athletes and coaches to move on to bigger and better positions at D1 colleges is not really in line with the mission IMO.
     
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  13. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Valid point. Conversely, their is a group out there (led by Ralph Nader) who says college sports is counter to the mission of academic high-ed and should be done away with period.

    How many tennis playing college juniors can not find a roster spot on a community college near them whose team scholarships are all taken by foreigners? There may be a few, but I bet 99.99% of tennis juniors who want to play JUCO tennis could find a scholarship somewhere if they looked.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
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  14. eliza

    eliza Guest

    Sir, I am a resident and I pay taxes too.
    Second, the same colleges make tons of money on foreigners, making them pay more than 3 times more the normal rate. Third, the fact your children are there should not be a automatic exclusion. Fourth: many US student-football/basketball/skating/tennis players are right now in Italy, where not only they can stay and study at ZERO costs, but also work at leisure.
    I would just ask the same treatment........
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2011
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  15. goober

    goober Legend

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    1. You are a resident that pays taxes. That's nice, but what does that have to do with anything?
    2. Community colleges are making tons of money off foreigners? Of course foreigner are not charged the same rate as residents. They are public supported entities, If you were a US citizen but from another state you would be charged the same. Capitalism has nothing to do with community colleges because they are government institutions that are not in the business of turning profit. Community colleges were built as 2 year programs to serve the local community. I don't see what the issue is with this mission.
    3. My children are where? Sorry your statement doesn't make any sense to me.
    4. US students in Italy on free rides? Personally I don't know any or even heard of any. I have never heard of a US student go over to ITaly on a free ride for athletics. The only ones I have ever heard of are pros trying to play pro ball. Who is paying for these US athletes? If it is club or some other pro style league, you are comparing apples to oranges.
     
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  16. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    Here we go" I pay taxes too"" you are not entiled to anything ,no one is. Sounds like you want a welfare check and free gov. money because you are Italian .. I'm perfectly fine with telling all foreigners to stay the hell home if they here only to take and not contribute ..
     
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  17. eliza

    eliza Guest

    The last two posters. Inform yourself, educate yourself better.
    SoCal, I never got a dime from your goverment. I am good only to give. The other one, if you are interested, contact your embassy, you have plenty of opportunities to go abroad, full ride.
     
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  18. goober

    goober Legend

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    I am very well informed and educated. Thank you
     
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  19. goober

    goober Legend

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    Nader is probably right. Pro sports should probably move to having a minor league for all sports and universities should be club level only. It won't happen though due to the huge amounts of money involved in basketball and football
     
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  20. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    No offense Eliza, but this is a free country.

    If you are so unhappy with the policies, maybe you should leave.
     
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  21. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    yeah! get out of here you foreign hippie! go back where you come from - enjoy your 20 hour work weeks and nude beaches!

    the above is meant to be taken very seriously, especially since i spent approximately 20 seconds skimming this thread and barely know what you guys are talking about
     
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  22. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, man. This post represents what the American way has become.

    DI is really, really not next, by the way.
     
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  23. eliza

    eliza Guest

    My dear nazists: I am obliging. Take care, E
     
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  24. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    Take this from another foreign living in the US, maybe your problem is not that you are a foreign, maybe is just the way you are, just a thought...
     
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  25. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    in that case, can you send me back some dragées?

    ps - yes i have decided that you are french - and no i don't care to be corrected
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2011
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  26. alb1

    alb1 Rookie

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    The NJCAA has made a decision in reaction to concerns about the eligibility of older aged foreign athletes in their organization. They decided not to spend their time and money verifying eligibility and instead decided to limit and level the field by limiting the numbers of those possible on each team. It's their organization and it's their right to do so. They will monitor and evaluate the results of their actions and continue forward.

    So now if Rafa wants to play at an American college, and Tyler and Laredo already have thier quota of foreign players, he'll just have to decide between Juco's in Alabama,Mississippi or another state, and the NAIA, D2, and D3 schools that he can attend.
    Tennis players will adjust, colleges will adjust. Life goes on.
     
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  27. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Seems like the NJCAA could just forbid the provision of out of state tuition differentials as athletic aid. After all, the local junior college is supposed to be supported by state and local taxpayers for the benefit of the local community, as many have pointed out.

    So, if a tennis player from Illinois wants to go to Tyler JC in Texas, he has to pay at least the out of state tuition premium without using athletic aid. Ditto for the tennis player from Slovakia. Neither paid taxes for junior colleges in Texas, so what is the difference between foreign and out of state in this discussion?
     
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  28. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Great points. I'd like to know..........

    I think the bigger issue concerning college tennis and the prominence of foreigners playing in the ranks is as follows. Outside of the very few cases of a player not being able to play on a college tennis team he wants to play for due to foreigners taking the scholarships and roster spots is, why are Americans not more dominant at the DI level?

    DI has removed the age factor so that argument is no longer valid.

    I have never seen a documented case of a top ranked or highly competent High School tennis player actually being denied playing for the college of his or her choice. I am sure that it happens on a very, very limited basis. I contend if you could not make the team or get the attention of the coach in the first place, you likely are not the caliber of player for that program anyway.

    There are plenty of colleges that are a fit for most any college tennis player.

    Every American kid who wants to play at Florida, Georgia or Virginia is not going be good enough, sorry. When that's the case, they need to look to (follow me for example purposes) Florida Atlantic, Georgia Southern or Richmond and elsewhere if they really are committed to play college tennis. Many of those programs has resorted to getting foreigners because they can't find enough competent American tennis players in the first place interested in even going there.

    I know of many, many highly ranked juniors, who chose not to play college tennis and just go to school at Alabama, Arkansas and Tennessee, and because foreigners were on the tennis team had nothing to do with not playing college tennis. Not saying there's anything wrong with the choice in any way to focus on academics. This is not a big part of the problem, just and observation and does not help the situation when qualified juniors quit the game after High School.
     
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  29. eliza

    eliza Guest

    Not a thought a truth. IT took you so long?????
     
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  30. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    If you look at the coaches at these "community colleges" that are perennial winners and that's a small list of schools...these guys (and/or gals) aren't using the NJCAA as a stepping stone to the bigs. They treat the NJCAA as the bigs and enjoy trouncing everyone every year.
     
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  31. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    Thanks, andfor, for mentioning the University of Richmond program. Sure, they're not UVa (thank goodness ;) ) but they have a fine academic and athletic reputation. Go Spiders!
     
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  32. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    It is a good school with good athletics. My mention was in no way a slight. Lots of very good Americans. However, no Blue Chips or 5 Stars. Lots of 4 Star Americans and a couple of brothers from Mexico.

    http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/team.asp?id=19

    Women have had some luck pulling a few 5 stars.
    http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/team.asp?id=810
     
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  33. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    No slight intended. I thought it a compliment. And it's actually a few bros and sistas (or cousins) from Mexico. While me and my girls have watched a few of their matches, we're not "in tight" enough with that UR program to know their exact relations. Same last name, same HS resume. Spider Football...is another matter but I am lucky enough to be able to take a free "clinic" from the tennis staff at an upcoming alum event. Maybe it's time to make some "friends."

    Still, your point is well-taken. Smaller (but still DI) schools are excellent landing spots for good kids.
     
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  34. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    Hold on a minute Eliza, I have been in Contact with Italian coaches in my effort to compete in Italian club tennis. The coaches were really interested to invite me, but there was ONE problem, Italian League Tennis is only open to people holding an ITALIAN PASSPORT, period! So before you generalize everything you have to admit, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Swiss, Dutch, Belguim tennis leagues have limits on how many foreign players are on a squad. I have played on Belguim, German, Dutch, and French teams for the last 6 years, and I have been the only foreigner allowed to compete on that Match Day. While I have not played in all of the countries I mentioned, I am familiar with the rules in many Euro countries.

    I'm not saying its fair either way, but before we criticize the states, we have to acknowledge the fact that there are limits in Euro tennis, and also Basketball leagues as well...I'm not sure on the rules for basketball, but I heard there are some limits...Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. I don't want to be spewing false info here!! lol
     
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  35. eliza

    eliza Guest

    Sorry, this things get me excited, I am so involved with the local community, bring money here and then I get accused and attacked too...
    Anyhow: I know of many players who did it, included two of my American cousins....So maybe they were not that interested in you after all......
    But if you really want, I can ask them the contact info....
     
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  36. goober

    goober Legend

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    I understand what you are saying, but I don't see any validity in comparing private professional leagues in Europe to state supported educational schools in the US which are fielding amateur sports teams.
     
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  37. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    Eliza, I know that Italian league accepts only Italian passports. I have heard from the coach I talked too. Also I heard from people with spanish passport who were also playing Italian futures tournaments.

    I'm not going to sit here and call you a liar, because I don't have an axe to grind with you ;). Maybe it is just in the lower level divisions where they have this restriction. So I could be wrong.
    But the point is ALL of the leagues I have played in the last 6 years have had restrictions on foreigners. SO why should the states be any different?
     
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  38. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    so what are you saying? are u against having limits on foreign players here in the states?
     
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  39. eliza

    eliza Guest

    First: I read your previous fast, thought you were looking to study and play there. Secondly, sorry but what you say it is not true. There is no "passport"requirement (where did you even get that?), but any ID, address in Italy (where are you going to stay? ) and certificate by Italian doctor as to good health and good vision (we are required to have in in order to play) Please go to Fit.it and contact the Italian tennis federation.
     
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  40. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    For clarity, cmb is talking about playing Italian Club sponsored Team Tennis, not Italian Federation Tournaments.
     
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  41. ATLTriggerman

    ATLTriggerman New User

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    Serious question from a new member

    I've been reading this forum for about a year, but just recently signed up so i could post.

    I've read many of these arguments. My question is, how do college coaches know that a given foreign player is indeed better than a "home grown" recruit? They have never competed head to head, so how is that assessment made? Video footage, international tournament results, what?

    If there is in fact a measurable difference, what is it due to? Superior junior development system overseas, age differences, more competitive tournament experience, etc.?

    Golf is a much easier sport to objectively measure - everyone plays on the same course, from the same tees, etc. and posts an objective score that is then public record. It would be easy to tell if foreign born players are better at the same age as Americans.

    I just don't see how such a determination can be made with tennis. I get how perception can become reality, but not sure how someone can KNOW that an 17 or 18 year old Brazilian is better than a 17 or 18 year old American when they've never played against each other (or even have any common opponents).

    Somebody help me out here. What am I missing or am I completely off base?
     
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  42. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    You've pretty much nailed how college coaches evaluate overseas talent. The one missing piece is referrals. Most coaches who recruit overseas have coaches in countries where they find players that can act as a reference for the talent they are interested in recruiting.

    Ranking systems for ITF and within most countries that have established junior tennis systems can easily be figured out to measure a players playing level. Combine all that with video and the process is not to difficult. Signing the best players is of course a different story. Competition is fierce.

    I also know a coach who used to go to Junior Wimbledon every other year and also attended U.S. ITF tournaments for recruiting purposes.

    Some mistakes are made, but most experienced coaches get it right. They are very cautious with giving out scholarships and usually get what they pay for, or at least get close. Not much different than recruiting American talent.

    I'm not a college coach nor have I been one. I'm going off what I know from talking with them. There may be more. It would be nice if a real college coach jumped in. However, I can't say I've ever seen a DI coach post here. Maybe they have but remained anonymous.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
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  43. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    Exactly ^^^ Italian Fedation Club League matches do have passport restrictions. Tournaments are open to anyone. Italy has a great circuit of tournaments I hope to play some one day!
     
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  44. ripero

    ripero New User

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    Hi, my first message here. First of all, as I am foreigner, I hope you will understand my below average English.

    My son is still young, but is great student and very good tennis player and my hope is someday he will become a member of a quality american college with full scholarship. Why? Not just to take money, we really NEED it because my family income is about or slightly below average in Croatia and I can't afford even public college prices.

    Why american college? Because it's the only place I know (correct me if I'm wrong) you can do academic and athletic development all together without sacrificing from one or other thing.

    It's understandable that I would like him to go to the best college possible (academic and athletic) but the prime condition is full ( or very close to that) scholarship.

    To you who think about foreigners as someone who are just taking the place and the money that should be invested in local kids - have you ever think about so many professors who are not born in USA, who payed for their studying in their countries and now having nothing of it?

    You see, students and professors are going abroad to find something they can be happy about. Some restrictions are maybe needed and I think that TennisCoachFLA (quoted above) was very close to ideal thinking.
     
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  45. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    Well then I think you have little reason to worry. I highly doubt this rule will spread to real colleges anytime in the near future.

    Sorry if anyone takes offense at the term "real colleges" - but there's a reason the adjective "junior" is there.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
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  46. eliza

    eliza Guest

    OK I am a lawyer, but sports is not my field (it could be that I will become a tennis lawyer down the line). According to the experience of my own family members, American born, no special requirements have ever been requested to them. Club wise or tourney wise. The only case (done for other reasons!!!) known is an american player, born with ONE italian parent, who re-acquired the Italian citizenship, therefore the Italian passport, and is actually "representing"Italy abroad.......
    If you know otherwise, I would appreciate your exact quote of the law/regulation.

    If you a light packer, and are happy with spartan accommodation, I am going to Italy and would be happy to help you find a place with my club.....
     
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  47. coach10s

    coach10s New User

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    Kudos to NJCAA. question for those who think it is a bad idea... How many of these foreign athletes has ever given anything back to the ol' USA? or to the university? They come over here, play for a school, get a degree and go back home. As a high school coach, it really bothers me when American universities would rather have foreign players than help develop and support American players and programs. It is a slap in the face of many a high school player
     
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  48. ripero

    ripero New User

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    There is some truth in your words... but look at the big picture. How many Nobel prizes came to US college professors which origin isn't American? And they went to schools in their native countries, maybe even finished colleges and then went to USA because of great conditions for work. What have they gave back to their native countries? All benefits go to students on their colleges. Of course, they don't have to win Nobel prizes to be great teacher.

    Many of my friends live now in USA where they found job after finishing studying. And they are contributing now.

    About sports. Why did American colleges even start giving scholarships to students for sports? They wanted all the fame they can have. If you thinking only about sport, it will happened as it is now in professional clubs in any sports - lot of foreign sportsman and very little place for local kids.

    When college have great achievement in any field (sport included) it became famous and then it could raise scholarships. More money, right? As I see it, all DIV 1 teams want fame. There can not be place and there is not time for development of players which are not on top. They need complete sportsman instantly. Development you're thinking of could be made at Div 2 or Div3 teams. Even here, in Croatia, premier teams grabs best sportsman from other teams and from abroad. Very little place for development youngsters there.
     
    #48

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